pandemonium 
Our Wednesday International Yahoo Chat
(Every Week, Wednesday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00 PM. Venezuelan Time, at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Scott(Florida, USA)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Carl (Teaneck, USA)
Stella (Mainz, Germany)
Roldan (Valencia, Venezuela)
Josue (Valera, Venezuela)
ORIGINAL TEXT OF THE INTERNATIONAL YAHOO CHAT:
THE END OF THE "SOCIAL PACT" OF INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY AND THE BIRTH OF A NEW PACT IN THE POST-INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY: THE ROAD TOWARDS "MICRO-ELECTRONIC OR TECHNOLOGICAL" PRODUCTION.
MAY 15, 2002
PLEASE NOTE:
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the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
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Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice
conference
- juttafranz-1300.
Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined
the conference.
SAYING HI!
carlzim: Hi, Franz, Jutta, Stella, Josuec
carlzim: Hi, Franz, Jutta, Stella, Josuec!
juttafranz: Hi! Everybody.
carlzim: Where is Scott?
josuecc: Hi all!
carlzim: OK, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Carl, Stella, Josué
and Franz. Scott and
Iris are missing.
missnaranjahit: Good evening all, Franz, Josué, Carl, Jutta!
josuecc: Good evening.
josuecc: I am a little nervous.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ready, Josué. Don't be nervous please.
jutta_schmitt2002: Take your time and take it easy, Josué.
juttafranz: OK, Josue .... we are all ears and eyes ....
josuecc: The intro is a little long but I expect
that it will be
understood, I will begin right now.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fine.
juttafranz: Don't worry about language and
mistakes ... we'll
follow your thoughts. ....
missnaranjahit: Ok Josuè.
INTRODUCION
josuecc: THE "END OF THE SOCIAL PACT" OF THE
INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY AND THE BIRTH OF
A NEW PACT IN THE SOCIETY POST INDUSTRIAL:
THE WAY OF PRODUCTION
"MICRO ELECTRONIC OR TECHNOLOGICAL"
josuecc: Before the end of the Cold War, in
most of the highly industrialized countries the bases that sustained the
respective
social structures were in crumbling process.
juttafranz: Excellent, what a topic!
jutta_schmitt2002: Sounds excellent. Please proceed.
carlzim: Excellent. Please continue.
josuecc: This situation was generated due to:
a) The Revolution Micro Electronic or Revolution
Technological -successor of the industrial revolution - and the rising
decrease
of work force invested in the production processes.
b) The conformation of a type of growth that
feeds of the
unemployment and of the Social Exclusion.
c) In synthesis, it was generated the decline
of the society of
the work or industrial society", in terms
of Bell (1977), which
are processes that inevitably would impact
in the political systems.
josuecc: The democratic social parties and
laborites experienced
in almost all the countries a crisis of identity
in the moments
that the communist parties of Europe of the
East experienced a
crisis of genuineness. According to Fernando
Mires: "In certain
way one can say that the version of which
had been imposed in
the Soviet Union and its satellites was a
radical version of the
society of the work". We Remember: "The Proletariat
was, before anything, a homo economicus."
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent. I'm following
your train of thought,
Josué.
juttafranz: Proceed .... Josue. Kindly save the chat, folks.
josuecc: This less dramatic way, in West, under
the shield of
the industrialism, the social life had also
conformed to by means
of mechanisms of extreme rationalization.
This is one of the
reasons that explain the resonance of theories
neoweberians, as
those of Habermas, because they constitute
a moral call to
impede the absolute colonization of the world
of the life by
means of the discursive communication, against
the instrumental
reason and of the logical monetarist. They
are theories that you
come in the expansion of the money and of
the state the human
being fundamental enemies. In great measurement,
the German philosophy is protests permanent against the
"destradicionalización" of the life.
And that process, today
in day, she/he is taking place, and in a quick
way, in most of
the industrial countries.
juttafranz: Josue, you are better than your
professor ... proceed,
I'm learning. ....
josuecc: Thanks.
josuecc: Agreement with Dahrendorf, that that
is finishing is the democratic social pact". Such a pact is associated
with a very
specific combination among a production way
based on the industrialization and the consumption of masses, and the
existence from a State agent to which some
economists baptized
with the name of State of " well-being ",
since doesn't only
assist to the conditions of accumulation,
but to those of
reproduction of the capital, favoring in this
last case the call
human capital", in order to transform the
workers into
consumers.
josuecc: The decline in the way of mechanical
production of
production and their substitution for the
way micro electronic
have derived in the installation in new production
ways based
on the essentially thrifty technology of manpower.
Contrary to
waves moderns of the past that removed the
peasants of their
lands (way of feudal production) to transform
them into workers
(way of capitalist production), those of today
remove the workers
of their machines (technological production
way) to transform
them into a new class that Dahrendorf calls
the one of below."
juttafranz: We follow your English with no
problem whatsoever,
Josue ....
josuecc: Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Congratulations Josué, please continue.
josuecc: The loss of work positions that generates
this way of
production micro electronic is also the loss
of what was the
most important space in socialization for
many individuals.
What means the loss of the work position to
be substituted
by " technology " only knows it the victims
of the new
modernization, with that which according to
Dahrendorf the
social ligaments of the industrial society
are dissolved",
then the social pact that had subscribed by
means of the
union and political organizations with the
State no longer
governs for him, as private person. A social
pact that excludes
in Europe to the population's 30%, in Latin
America to 60%, and
in Africa to almost the population's entirety,
is not a very solid
base for the political stability.
jutta_schmitt2002: Brilliant observations.
josuecc: Most of the political class continues
speaking,
however, in the terms that it imposed the
old social pact,
without realizing that this, for many individuals,
no longer
has validity. In the society post industrial
still governs the
political grammar of the industrial society.
In this disagreement,
the politics, in its expressions that they
are delegated, loses
credibility, the civic unemployed has very
few action
possibilities, reason why it elects to representatives
that no
longer represent it", or of it depoliticizes;
or search new
political articulations with new offers that
they appear the
political market inside those that the calls
populisms of right
current -case are included in France with
Jean Marie Le Pen -
that with their easy predicate against the
foreigners, they
conquer ...
juttafranz: Following .... I'm introducing
no chat anymore ....
Josue, for President!
josuecc: Thanks.
josuecc: ... that with their easy predicate
against the foreigners,
they conquer the adhesion of many desperate
social". this way,
the political civilization of those spaces
is a challenge for
almost all the democracies.
nonpositivism: Interesting, Josue...in America
the pundits call
this a "disconnect" between Leadership and
the general
population. There's official communication,
but no real dialogue,
no real connection.
josuecc: The way of production micro
electronic or technological -product of the waste of the socialism and
the capitalism - it is a production way based on the knowledge, so that
the owners of
the knowledge, of the science and the technology,
are the owners
of the production means, for what they vary
the relationships and
production forces. In the current societies
those are imposed that
monopolize the science and the technology:
making genetic manipulations; building every day more sophisticated weapons
of war that will lead to the humanity's self-destruction;
rushing
to the conquest of the sidereal space. Meanwhile,
in the third
world we are still thinking of the possibility
of telling him yes
or not to the industrialization process.
nonpositivism: Josue, this is very interesting
stuff. Your
previous remarks remind me of Hitler's tapping
into the negative
energy and resentment of declassed Working
Class of Post WWI
Germany.
josuecc: Then, the end of the bipolar world
order has not
determined the politics' crisis, has only
made it more visible".
Rather the deterioration in the mechanical
way of production,
so much in the capitalist block as in the
communist block,
erosion the foundations that made possible
the bipolar world
order. The revolution that put an end to the
totalitarian political
order in the this communist one was only the
advance of the
widespread collapse taken place by the revolution
micro
electronic or technological of our time.
josuecc: Exactly.
jutta_schmitt2002: These are manifestations
of the equal,
unequal and combined development, Josué.
The Third World
is still occupied with the problem of proper
industrialization,
whilst the "post-industrial societies" have
taken off into
completely different spheres of "production"
already.
juttafranz: Josue, I never knew that I have
such excellent
students in my Political Thought under-graduate
seminar --
but surprises are always welcome! Congratulations!
Next,
I'll take you to my post-graduate seminar:
Fundamentals
of Political Thought!
josuecc: With regard to the relation of this
theme with the
SOCIAL EXCLUSION we have the growth of the
so quick
population of the majority of the countries
in development,
is not alien to the increase of the offering
of labor. However,
that be done more serious the unemployment
in the world
developed sample that the phenomenon is more
united to the
apparition again technologies that require
each time less labor,
that not to the increase of the population.
In which some they
call "second industrial revolution" or "technological
revolution"
was gained so much in productivity that was
created a
disagreement among job and production. "By
second time in
the history the machines substitute the man
and the economic
growth produces each time less employment".
josuecc: Thanks Professor Franz.
nonpositivism: Yes, Jutta but they are connected
in that the
Information "First World" still needs the
Resources, including
the Human Resources of the Developing countries.
carlzim: Josuec, thank you for an excellent
introduction. I think
the character of techno, post-industrialization
largely resulted
from the increased influence of the media
advertising agencies
who have told the rich and powerful what they
want to hear, e.g.,
reduce number of skilled workers and worker
benefits, and
increase size of low paid underclass.
josuecc: The exclusion of the labor market
organized constitutes
one of the main causes of the poverty in the
world. The boom
of the informal sector, considered frequently
as alternative to
the labor market salaried, has not offered
to millions of workers
but a precarious form of job in activities
of survival,
characterized by a very scarce productivity.
The decrease of
the offering of employment has had like consequence
a
heterogeneous character of the labor market
that has enlarged
in considerable proportions the irregular
number of employments
and badly paid.
josuecc: It Fits to see in these inconveniences
one of the main
causes of the increase of the exclusion and
the pauperization
of the planet. And in the need to find alternatives
to this desfase
among job and production, one of the main
problems to that are
seen confronted the investigators and the
authorities in this end
of century.
jutta_schmitt2002: Resources from the Third
World Countries, or
even their cheap labour force, won't be required
for that much
longer, Scott.
josuecc: Today we find ourselves before another
spectacular
economic advance, that has like protagonist
to the technological innovation, so much in the field of the industry as
in that of the biotechnology applied to the agriculture, in that of the
services
data processing, etc., etc. Suffice to have
present that the
elevates rates of unemployment are proportional,
in good
measurement, to the investments in new technologies
that
destroy positions of job.
carlzim: Agreed, Josuec. See my reply above.
nonpositivism: Yes, Josue you have identified
a
basic problem that is almost taboo in the
Media Conglomerates,
the fact that much of the latest technology
is job-destroying
technology. That is indisputable.
juttafranz: Josue, once more, thanks for an
excellent, superb
introduction! Never mind the grammatical and
syntax errors --
English is not your native, mother tongue,
and very few people
in Venezuela speak or understand English.
josuecc: They appear other, certainly, but
the sixteen million unemployed, above all youths, in the Economic Community
European, the near thirty-two million in the
countries of the
OCDE are a test unquiet that the history is
repeated and not
of form more smooth.
josuecc: I have concluded the introduction
and I expect that
can create a good discussion the day of today.
......
juttafranz: Continue ....
carlzim: Agreed, Josuec. See my reply above.
josuecc: Thanks Profesor Franz.
nonpositivism: And I might add these unemployment numbers are usually understated. In the USA for example, real Unemployment is about 10 - 15% right now - but that's NEVER officially acknowledged.
juttafranz: Well, folks, the floor is open .....
missnaranjahit: Wow Josué, great into, thanks.
josuecc: Thanks.
juttafranz: Let's debate the issue in the same "spirit"!
josuecc: Ok Carl.
carlzim: Repeat--Josuec, thank you for an excellent introduction. I think the character of techno, post-industrialization largely resulted from the increased influence of the media advertising agencies who have told the rich and powerful what they want to hear, e.g., reduce number of skilled workers and worker benefits, and increase size of low paid underclass.
nonpositivism: ¡Josue, muy bueno trabajo con su introdución!
jutta_schmitt2002: Josué - thank you for an outstanding introduction. Excellent perspective, excellent presentation. I can see you have been doing a lot of work and investigation with a big portion of enthusiasm! Felicitaciones!!!!
juttafranz: Carl, I'm looking for "hornets"
all over, they are
right in front of my nose, in my own class!
carlzim: Folks, on Mother's Day (5/12/02),
Fran&I saw the Broadway musical
"Urinetown" in New York City. It's an excellent
parody on the leftist musicals, drama and
movies of the 1930's and '40's based on Kurt
Weill's Dowm in the Valley, Street Scene
and ThreePenny Opera, Berthold Brecht's Mother
Courage, Marc Blitzstein's
Cradle will Rock, and Dimitri Shostakovitch's
film scores. It was also based on Evita.
The issue was whether public toilets should
be free or pay. Many 30 year olds in audience.
In Urinetown, Capitalists and workers were
good and bad. The police both suppressed and were friendly
to the workers. In typical USA style, Capitalists
and workers united at the finale, unlike Europe, Latin America, Asia and
Africa, which retain division of classes.
josuecc: Carl, I agree.
josuecc: Thanks Jutta.
carlzim: Hornets also on Broadway, NYC.
nonpositivism: Well, Carl...even Broadway will perpetuate the myth of the classless society in the USA. It explains a great, great deal of our problems here.
carlzim: Yes, Scott. However, in Urinetown implied.
juttafranz: Josue, in a few words, in a nut-shell,
what exactly is
the essence of the "social pact" in the new,
post-industrial,
future galactic creative or barbaric global
society?
carlzim: Class cooperation, not elimination.
nonpositivism: America is badly divided along class lines, but only rarely (Populism, CIO, Civil Rights Movements - the 3 greatest Popular Mass Movements in USA History) articulated ideology or clear political agenda (theoretical and practical) to challenge or at least mitigate class differences....exactly, Carl, That's a perfect 4 word description for the American mythos.
jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, I fully agree with the analysis you presented, and would like to sum it up as follows: The dynamics of the technological revolutions that have taken place ever since the industrial revolution have created a situation, where ever more people remain excluded from the production process, and production itself is being performed with ever less labour force - in our days, predominantly intellectual labour force. The latest developments in research and investigation of nanotechnology, for instance, indicate, that we may be confronted with sort of a "nano assembly line" in the near future, where new resources - materials - are not only being assembled by nanobots, but literally "built from scratch".
juttafranz: Jutta, you could help Josue to answer this too.
juttafranz: Well, that's pandemonium telepathy
-- Jutta replied
to my question already, and gave Josue language
support.
carlzim: The present social pact is media crapola.
nonpositivism: Jutta, I don't agree this will ever happen. There are certain intrinsic limitations with electro-mechanical technology, even nanotechnology which have been well illustrated by Dyson, Penrose and other eminent Scientists including Nobel Prize winners. Nevertheless, the tendency to destroy jobs requiring Physical (Manual) Human Labor will continue.
carlzim: Good points, Scott.
josuecc: I think that a social pact based on a technological way of production, before was a relation or exploitation man-man, now would be man-technology, which causes exclusion.
jutta_schmitt2002: If we determine the concept "social classes" on the level of production itself, that is with regard to the position in the production process, we find the two, basic and famous antagonistic classes: those who posess the means of production, and those who posess nothing else but their labour force. Politically, there may be efforts of "pacts" that can be "successful" to a certain degree, as Josué has pointed out in his introduction, but once the production process "moves on" and, by its own dynamics produces ever more profit and goods WITHOUT employing labour force (and generating consumers), the "gap" between the few who remain part of the process and the many who get excluded takes on dramatic dimensions.
nonpositivism: Jutta, there's one way around this for the Developed Superpowers, if they choose to go in this direction to head off the inevitable confrontation with those peoples and nations who will rebel from their "low place on the totem pole". Create a "benevolent" method of distribution and consumption of resources to these peoples to ensure subsistence or perhaps a bit better.
carlzim: Whatever became of the Soviet Union-the classless society?
carlzim: Folks, Last Sunday (5/12/02), Joe
Adamov answered my question "What
changes are expected in Russian business in
the future? How will jobs
change, etc.?" on Moscow Mailbag on Voice
of Russia (formerly Radio
Moscow) short wave radio broadcast in English
at 9:10 PM New York City
time. Joe Abswerered that 40 million people
in Russia and ther
ex-USSR countries are presently below poverty
line, and it will take 40
years to catch up with the West. This broadcast
can be heard during the rest of the week.
juttafranz: Nanotechnology, creating, not producing,
new
materials -- is this really "new"? What did
Cosmos or Nature
create already as natura naturans and
natura
naturata, of
which we are not aware, due to disinformation,
miserable
sense perception and emasculated brains? Could
it be that
the new materials are after all not so new,
and that they are
an infringement, a new post-productive exploitation,
of Nature,
the fons et origo of "new" forms of
non-relations, maltreatment
and perversion?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - will you please run for president in the USA next time?! You bet I will vote for you (most probably you won't get much backing from corporate America though ... )!
juttafranz: Jutta, that is a brain tickler for you!
carlzim: The ex-USSR Joe Adamov answered.
carlzim: Was the Cold War real?
nonpositivism: Thanks Jutta, for your compliment. I have been asked in fact to run for Florida State Legislature but declined - maybe just in time. I hate to sound negative, but IMO your first few sentences before parrot too much obsolete Marxian dichotomies. There are plenty of individuals out there drawing salaries AND making huge $$ from investments. What was/is Michael Jordan? In spite that his net worth (which now must be 200+ Million USA dollars) was acquired primarily by playing basketball and doing endorsements, you still consider him a "Laborer"? What about all those thousands of Professional athletes worldwide, very wealthy men (and some women)? Where do they fit in your paradigm, pray tell?
carlzim: From a Russian forum host: "Joe Adamov
is really a sweet guy. Incredible man. His voice is made for radio broadcasting.
I too used to listen to Joe on Radio Moscow
ages ago, when I was back in the USA. He too answered my letters, don't
recall the questions.
Is Julya still on the radio? She was the first
foreigner who started working for them back in the 80's. I was invited
one time, and she did a show about american holidays. I was on July 4th,
1998.
Anyway, another person from there is Vasily
Strelnikoff, who managed to make it big up until
recent years, he's one of the main DJ's of
MTV."
carlzim: Imagine, Radio Moscow guy DJ on MTV.
nonpositivism: [Correction for Jutta from my previous remarks: Does the fact that his net worth (which now must be 200+ Million USA dollars and is heavily invested worldwide) was acquired primarily by playing basketball and doing endorsements still qualify him as a "Laborer"? To me this is simplistic. Same for very wealthy Professional athletes all over the world.]
juttafranz: Scott, be very careful with "obsolete
Marxian
dichotomies"; Platonic "democracy" is age-old,
and so is
Liberty, Equality and Fraternity -- they were
archaic dreams
of the Pre-Marxian French Revolution. The
Holy Bible is even
more archaic than Marx's CAPITAL, in temporal
terms. Gorgias'
triple Negation of Being is more than 2300
years "old", and yet,
in its philosophic implications, it surpasses
the whole current,
universal, modern philosophy.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I am talking of the basic economic labour-relation and of the main tendency. Billions of people on the planet, who vegetate along and below the poverty line would not have the slightest problem with my argument, Scott. There are no billions of Michael Jordans running around on the planet, let's face it.
carlzim: Scott, please run for Florida State legislature.
carlzim: I listened to Radio Moscow in the
USA starting as a teenager in 1950's. I liked their opening musical theme
from Dunayevsky's "Shiroka stranama ya rodnaya." I recall the WW2 song
about Soviet fighter pilots:
"Higher, higher & higher, we follow that
shining North Star,
and every propeller is turning defending the
USSR." In addition to Joe Adamov. Vladmir Posner was also one of my favorites,
a graduate of Stuyvesant High School in New York City (NYC). I don't know
about Julia. Glad about Vasily Strelnikov. I met Nikolai Khrenikov when
he visited New York City. His parents owned the stables for the horse &
buggy rides in Central Park.
juttafranz: Also, the very language that we
use is obsolete,
is archaic, partially, it is much older than
Marx, or any
"communist" or "terrorist" for that matter.
carlzim: Cold War=buillscheisse.
juttafranz: How about "Present or Future" in
the Past, about those daydreams that never came true? How about our obsolete
daydreams of youth? Are they also age-old
"dichotomies"?
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, nano-technology may not be "new" with regard to the very composition possibilites nature itself retains; yet nanotechnology understood as the refined material expression of the non-relation society-nature, crossing the borderline from production to creation, may well be considered something "new".
jutta_schmitt2002: Oooooopsssss - friends, I have been so immersed in our debate that I am far over time - I should have left here at 2.00 pm. Gotta run. Sorry all, I would have liked to stay longer!!! Please save the script - I will leave my window open. Carl, Scott, Franz, Stella and Josué: It's been a pleasure, and thanks again Josué for that brilliant introduction. Bye all!!!!!!!!
nonpositivism: OK, Jutta, sorry to see you ago. Regarding your earlier remarks on "the great divide" Jutta, That's true BUT there are tens of millions professionals worldwide in many different employment sectors - literally millions in the USA alone in fact - who are blurring the gap between "Owners of Production" and "Laborers". This is one of the reasons why your argument is not easily understood in North America.
juttafranz: I'm not being unfair, Scott, it's
only that we should
use everything that ever was done or thought
for emancipatory
purposes, and not be "biased" with reference
to certain actions
and ideas that were already thrown into the
"Cold War"
anti-communism waste-paper basket. Nothing
personal, Scott --
just a warning to all of us -- to me too.
juttafranz: I'm so sorry, Jutta has to go ....
nonpositivism: Bye Jutta, we'll miss you. Thanks for being here with us today!
carlzim: Bye Jutta. Thanks for joining. Regards to Martin.
josuecc: Bye Jutta, Thanks.
juttafranz: Bye! Jutta!!
juttafranz: Well, Josue, returning to your introduction ....
juttafranz: How do you see the immediate future,
as far as the
production system advances, and what role
is Venezuela playing
in this development?
juttafranz: I see Chavez has invited the top
"Anti-Globalization"
guy, a French activist named José Bové,
to Venezuela.
juttafranz: Josue, still there?
juttafranz: Of course, anybody could comment too.
juttafranz: Do you read me? I get no messages from you!
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
josuecc: I think that the advances of the systems of production will follow depending on the technological advance, and this incidirá in the social aspect because each time there is greater unemployment and social exclusion. In Venezuela first we owe industrialized to be able to arrive at the technological advance but with "social face" or humanist. ....
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
carlzim: Hi, folks.
josuecc: Hi.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
juttafranz: Josue, but exactly this Chavez
wants to realize, is
propagating in the Group 88 (the poorest nations),
and this the
Great Powers, by hook or by crook (military
coups) want to
prevent.
josuecc: Venezuela is denied to the industrialization and to the technological advance because Chávez interprets it as "neoliberalism" or as the "monster" of the globalization.....
juttafranz: In fact, under the present circumstances,
with 6
billion pauperized manual labourers in the
"Third World", there
is no way whatsoever to achieve the above.
carlzim: I think Chavez's anti-globalization PR is BS. On oil--From a forum:
"Control of the world's oil supply is the key
issue today. New Zealand
and Switzerland raised their interest rates
a week ago. This may be the
start of a trend that will reach the USA later.
This is due to the price
of oil and it's around $27 now. It does seem
that production is high and
we need more to bring the price down. If there
is a continued world slow
down, that may lower the price, but we're
moving to a point where
OPEC will have even more power and control."
juttafranz: On the contrary, these countries
are forced to drift
away from high-tech, from technology and industrialization.
juttafranz: To reduce poverty of poor nations,
of 6 billion people,
really, the only belligerent answer from the
North, is to eliminate
this poverty completely.
carlzim: Except their major resource, Franz,. e.g., I think Venzuela's oil refining tech. is most advanced.
josuecc: I think that the solution to the poverty is in the education, the science and the technology considering always the social welfare of the population..
juttafranz: Yes, Carl, because it is assessed
and controlled by
the high-tech USA -- PDVSA, in the final analysis,
is being
controlled by USA-friendly technocrats. This
Chavez wants to
eliminate, and you can see the delicate result
right now.
nonpositivism: Franz, you have to understand one thing. Part of it is selfish side of human nature and part of it is indifference and part of it is "least resistance" thinking: if Northern Nations think that poorer nations can be quietly subjugated indefinitely they will continue to do so rather than reduce their own standard of living to more fairly distribute the planet's wealth. I have a feeling you, Carl and even Stella and Josue will intuitively realize there's quite a bit of substance in my argument here. I welcome your comments!
carlzim: Josuec, also lower class consumers benefit the upper class owners of production.
josuecc: Venezuela has to stop being a simple producer of matters, has to incorporate the industry of the petroleum and to invest in new petroleum technologies, thus we will be able to compete with the "world powers".
juttafranz: Josue, with due respect that on
the face value it is
"correct" and "true" what you say, but there
is another "dark
side" of education, science and technology.
juttafranz: Of course, Scott, beyond any reasonable
doubt, there
is much substance in what you say.
carlzim: http://www.cofc.org/Discussions/Sept%2011/lacny.htm
The next major political attack on the US
working class
by John Lacny October 27, 2001
The global economic crisis is finally hitting
the United States itself in a
big way. It was coming long before September
11, but certain sectors have
been especially hard-hit as a result of the
terrorist attacks. As of this
writing, the most recent AFL-CIO Layoff Tracker
(http://www.aflcio.org/sept_11/econchart.htm
, updated October 25, 2001)
has compiled company press releases, websites
and media reports for a total
of 574,123 layoffs over a month and a half.
Sectors such as transportation
(128,519), hospitality and tourism (134,831)
and aerospace (70,305) are
taking very big hits, as might be expected.
carlzim: Meanwhile, Congressional Republicans
in particular are gearing up for a
political fleecing of the working class of
immense proportions. On October
12 the Ways and Means Committee of the House
of Representatives approved a
scandalous "economic stimulus" package, which
was passed by the House on
October 24. We are all in desperate need of
an economic stimulus, but this
bill does not qualify as such.
carlzim:
The bill would cost some $103 billion in fiscal
year 2002, and at a minimum
(see below why it could cost more) $162 billion
over the next ten years.
Over 95 percent of the measure consists of
tax cuts. In fiscal year 2002,
64 percent of the package is made up of corporate
and business tax cuts,
and an additional 19.1 percent is made up
of tax cuts that would benefit
primarily higher-income taxpayers. Tax cuts
benefiting primarily low- and
moderate-income taxpayers come in at 13.3
percent. Spending and tax
provisions for unemployed workers come in
at a measly 3.2 percent.
carlzim: Over ten years, the package breaks
down as follows: 42.3 percent for
corporate and business tax cuts; 43.5 percent
for tax cuts benefitting
primarily upper-income taxpayers; 8.2 percent
for tax cuts benefiting
primarily low- and moderate-income taxpayers;
and 4 percent for spending
and tax provisions for unemployed workers.
josuecc: Which is dark side of the education, the science and the technology, Franz?
juttafranz: Surely, "part of it is the selfish
side of human nature
and part of it is indifference and part of
it is "least resistance"
thinking", but, these should apply to all
human beings on earth,
black and white, poor and rich, workers and
capitalists -- well,
how do we get "selfishness", 'indifference"
and "non-resistance
thinking" out of perverse human nature? At
least, over 50
millennia, education, customs, witchcraft,
superstition, tradition,
culture, religion, white magic, black magic,
etc., all tried to
achieve this; alas! no way, to achieve this
social aim-- these
human "vices" must be inborn, must be genetic,
hence, perhaps
human cloning and genetic engineering could
help. If not, we'll
always have rich, triumphant, selfish,
indifferent nations and
poor, docile, obedient, sometimes rebellious
nations -- no world
peace!
josuecc: I agree, Professor Franz.
carlzim: Josuec, the dark side is depopulation of millions in 3rd world via disease (e.g., AIDS), wars and "natural" disasters.
nonpositivism: Carl, since 9/11 some Canadian and USA Execs have tried to unilaterally suspend their Collective Bargaining Agreements with their unions by exploiting "force majeure" clauses applicable to extreme emergencies. Thus far they have not been successful, at least in the USA.
juttafranz: The "dark side" is, that education,
like Plato already
explained, is not free, is censured, is related
to ruling class
production, it serves ruling class interests,
also that in each
epoch the dominant ideas are the ideas of
the dominant, rich
classes, and they control the Ministry of
Education, they employ professors and teachers, they revise the syllabuses,
and
curricula, and they decide what is information
or education and
what not, for example, teaching obsolete Marxism
is bogus
economics, and that "the US$ trusts in God",
and that "God
blesses America" are postmodern ideas. These
obsolete
"blessings" Jesus already disseminated among
"the clean of
heart" millennia ago.
carlzim: Interesting, Scott.
carlzim: Even the Internet is no longer free.
nonpositivism: Interesting you say this about genetic engineering, Franz. This is the very same speculation that Berman very seriously considered in Twilight of American Culture. He devoted a very long chapter to it. Perhaps the only way to transcend these difference IS reprogramming. My problem with this concept though is that the Cure may be far worse than the Disease, partially because the programming solution will only reflect the Human Frailties and less-than-noble motives of the Designers.
Yahoo! Messenger: apoludio has joined the conference.
juttafranz: I have another student on line,
apoludio, will invite
him.
josuecc: Because should be an education, science and technology with human face not of car destruction of the species. Should descend the biological budgets of weapons and to enlarge the social investment. ...
juttafranz: Hi! Roldan!!
juttafranz: Welcome Roldan, today my students
storm the
Cyber-Heaven!!! Or is it the Globalized "Bastille"?
nonpositivism: Congrats, Franz! you are rapidly building a cyber-University, ready to consider the next Human Reengineering, Cloning and Reprogramming Projects..........Welcome, Apoludio!
apoludio: Hello, It was so hard to find you in the net.
Yahoo! Messenger: juttafranz has left the conference.
carlzim: Hi, Roldan.
apoludio: Hi, whay have you talk about?
Yahoo! Messenger: franzjutta has joined the conference.
franzjutta: OK! I'm back ....
carlzim: Hi, Franz.
josuecc: Welcome Franz and Scott¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
franzjutta: Please invite Scott!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
nonpositivism: As I was saying, before I was so rudely interrupted by Big Brother Yahoo Server.........
nonpositivism: Josue, agreed your goals for how to implement Science, Technology, Capital and fairer Distribution are laudable, but National Leaders of all persuasions generally DO NOT share this goal. Human societies have evolved based on Local thinking, protecting one's tribal or national interests. To think globally is a revolutionary paradigm shift which humanity may be incapable of making!
juttafranz: Scott, we are in the wrong room.
Log out, Carl will
invite us!
nonpositivism: We may not want to confront
it, but that's a
serious obstacle -
franzjutta: OK, let's proceed ....
franzjutta: Roldan, still around?
apoludio: Welcome Franzjutta.
apoludio: Yes, I just can´t read your menssages.
franzjutta: OK, Josue, did you still get my
message about the
"dark side" of education?
josuecc: Repeat please...¡¡¡
apoludio: What have dicused about?
carlzim: Franz, please invite Scott. My invites didn't work.
franzjutta: The "dark side" of technology is
likewise, no
metropolitan country will export its most
advanced
"high-tech-know-how" or even such products
to Venezuela.
Just imagine buying a Tesla-powered NASA "Flying
Saucer",
exported from Los Alamos, in La Avenida Urdaneta
in Caracas!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
carlzim: Hi, Scott.
apoludio: Ustedes están enviándose mensajes de voz?, por qué nadie escribe nada?
nonpositivism: Thanks folks for bringing me
back onboard......I've been waiting a long time to say this, so here goes..........sorry
for the interruption, as they say, I'm merely responding to Josue's comments
about how Global resources should be rededicated and reorganized:
nonpositivism: As I was saying, before I was
so rudely interrupted by Big Brother Yahoo Server....Josue, agreed that
your goals for how to implement Science, Technology, Capital and fairer
Distribution are laudable, but National Leaders of all persuasions generally
DO NOT share this goal. Human societies have evolved based on Local thinking,
protecting one's tribal or national interests. To think globally is a revolutionary
paradigm shift which humanity may be incapable of making!
This is perhaps the biggest obstacle of all.
Can we surmount it without re-engineering ourselves biologically? If so,
how? If not, is the price of Reprogramming worth its potential benefit?
carlzim: apoludio, do you understand English?
franzjutta: Yes, Carl .. sufficiently!
franzjutta: Folks, those who remained here
over the last 15
minutes, kindly save your text -- I lost these
15 minutes.
josuecc: Understand Carl, I agree.
carlzim: Scott, we can surmount by focusing
on our creative talents--art, music, writing ...
carlzim: ... and not overly intellectualizing-so we don't lose contact with the common folk.
josuecc: Franz, I´m sending you the text
of today's Chat.
franzjutta: Thanks, Josue!
carlzim: Common folk perceive over-intellectualizing
as a device to avoid resoponsibility and control them.
carlzim: I'll save what I can and send to you, Franz.
franzjutta: Furthermore, Josue, for example,
history is always
the history of the rulers of the country.
In South Africa, under
Apartheid, white ruling history was taught
and Blacks were
portrayed as dirty rascals; now, a decade
later, suddenly Black
History is dominant in South Africa, and the
whites of yore are
illustrated as savage, murdering scoundrels.
Now, historic truth
is in reverse, is contrariwise! The irony
is that both versions
are true: always who is in power, who is powerful,
determines
and decides what is the truth! In the Labour
Fatherland this is
the only real truth that really matters and
that is decisive.
Anything else is wishful thinking, is part
of religious delirium
of a revolutionary pipe-dream, or of some
"bad trip".
josuecc: Which would it be the road to follow facing this "dark side"?
franzjutta: So, across education, technology,
etc., Venezuela will
never reach Washington and the NASA; they
don't even allow
Chavez to continue Bolivar's Revolution, the
obsolete French
Revolution, including its archaic ideals:
democracy, liberty,
equality and fraternity -- these have become
"terrorism" already,
part of Chavez' "Reign of Terror".
carlzim: Re: Marshall McCluhan: "Medium is
the Massage" and "Essential McCluhan."
I agree the "ear" is key, which explains why
so many CEO's listen to the crapola they want to hear.
I think that while Mcluhan was brilliant ,
he was also somewhat self-serving. His ideas were used by various "BS'ers"
in the Advertising & PR industry to justify their overinflated salaries.
We must appeal to the "ear."
josuecc: The Venezuelan education is expression of which interests at present?
franzjutta: And that Revolution, the
bourgeois-democratic-capitalist just wanted:
industrialization,
land reform, nation-building, modern education,
against feudalist, absolutist, religious education, wanted to separate
Church
and State, in the case of Venezuela, to separate
Governor
Porras of Merida, from the obsolete clergyman
Porras, the
Archbishop of Venezuela. Black Gold -- the
root of all evil --
does not permit this historic task.
nonpositivism: In my more optimistic moments Carl I agree with you. It doesn't have to be only in Music, like Jazz. Even an International Space Station that truly positively engaged dozens of countries in different creative and technical ways would be a step in the right direction, do you not agree?
franzjutta: Of the Cisneros, Mendozas, Capriles,
Estangas,
Ortegas, Miami gangsters, CAP, the Contras,
etc.,Chavez
wants to get rid of in Venezuela; he wants
to change the
socialization process by means of his
Bolivarian educational
schools. This is too much for Uncle Sam, it
might affect the
oil exports!
carlzim: Good point, Scott.
franzjutta: This goes against the grain, as
far as the USA and
their henchmen here are concerned.
franzjutta: Imagine free production, equal supply and fraternal consumption: this the USA do not want for the Venezuelan Oil.
carlzim: So they tried Le Pen and Zhirinovsky.
josuecc: Will the "black" Aristóbulo Istúriz be able to comply with that goal ?
carlzim: Tesla free electromagnetic energy, Franz.
nonpositivism: Thanks, Carl. To me though what is a depressingly familiar sign is that in spite of limited international hardware collaboration and contracting, Nations like the USA still seem to prefer to go it alone - for reasons of Control, Security, Prestige, etc. The fact that we're having such enormous trouble opening up these Space Projects in a big way to pro-active large-scale creative cooperation is a bad sign.
carlzim: Yep, Scott.
franzjutta: Well, Aristobulo Isturiz, the "Blacky"
-- "El Negro",
is Minister of Education, all right, but the
future of Venezuela is
too "black" in order that he would get the
necessary Petro-Dollars
to finance French Revolutionary Enlightenment,
-- his skin is
still "too dark" for many a Venezuelan child
or mother. The
Minister of Education himself is an ideological,
racist problem
in Venezuela.
nonpositivism: Franz, you mean Venezuela plays these racial games too, Franz?
nonpositivism: Another sign of crucial anthropological human weakness. Creation of outsiders, de-speciation, based on the most superficial likeness or lack there of.
franzjutta: Yes, Scott, do you know what the
absolute majority
of Venezuelans call an African -- ask Josue
and Roldan to
verify this -- simply, his name is "Negro"
and his surname
is "Mierda" (Shit) -- so for most people here,
and elsewhere,
Nelson Mandela is Mr. Negro Mierda! And this
is not a specific Venezuelan problem, anywhere where capitalism or globalization
are affirmed, this racist virus is virulent
in every human soul.
nonpositivism: Just another angle on why nations will not think unselfishly. Still think tribally.
franzjutta: Now look how deep the epoch of
de Gobineau,
Voltaire and Montesquieu entered into post-colonial
Latin
Society! Marxism is "obsolete", but age-old
racism, ignorance,
obscurantism and arrogance surely are not
out-of-date!
nonpositivism: Beware the Beast Man...."Yea, he will his brother to possess his brother's land."
franzjutta: Josue, Roldan, is this true? Or am I just exaggerating?
nonpositivism: 'Beware the beast man, for he is the devil's pawn. Alone among G-d's primates, he kills for sport, or lust or greed. Yes, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him. Drive him back into his jungle lair: For he is the harbinger of death." - not a good presciption for Global cooperation, good Race Relations, Brotherhood of Man, or redistribution of wealth, is it?
josuecc: Is that true....¡¡¡¡¡¡
franzjutta: By the way, Josue, you are from
Valera, from which
part are you, Roldan? From Valencia?
carlzim: Racism=cheap labor.
nonpositivism: On that note, my Venezuelan friends, we can also beter understand how Castro's support within and outside of Cuba divides along racial lines. Something about which most Americans have no conception - ironically, given America's 300 year heritage of Slavery and Racial Apartheid.
franzjutta: Which city, Roldan?
josuecc: But a great deal of people says "blacky" "mi negro, mi negra" by affection and not by racism. ...¡¡¡
franzjutta: Well, Scott, I think "racism",
"race prejudice" is
inborn, is one of the human values, is simply
genetically
determined, white genes and black genes, blue
eyes and brown
eyes.
nonpositivism: Josue, yes it's complicated. Even the word "nigger" in the USA especially within the Black community itself is sometimes used positively and as a term of endearment. An African-American Law Professor at Harvard just wrote a book called "Nigger" to discuss this phenomenon. Still, that does not deny the basic historical Racial antagonism, divide and exploitation.
franzjutta: Perhaps cloning will be a virtue
in disguise, a way
to eliminate "racism", by just cloning blonde,
white, straight
hair alphas.
nonpositivism: Franz, indeed it seems to genetically
stamp us, probably for survival reasons in our past (and present?) when
knowing
and recognizing one's own tribe was key to
survival. Now it can be the seed of human destruction on a planetary scale,
given the weapons we have at our disposal.
carlzim: Last night, I saw a TV show on Al Jazeera, the CNN TV of the Muslim World. The lighter skinned, Westernized Muslims were favored, and no Blacks were shown.
carlzim: And Islam forbids racism.
nonpositivism: Franz, yes returning to this theme I think humanity should be very, very careful before going in this direction. Genetic manipulation even of Foods (GMO's) is still a doubtful enterprise to me. And when you talk about Designer Babies, I strongly tend to think this "cure" is likely to be far worse than the current global "disease".
carlzim: Is Stella here?
nonpositivism: Carl, yes, the examples are countless, cross-cultural and transnational. Beware the Beast Man.
josuecc: Bye Franz.
josuecc: Bye Carl.
nonpositivism: Carl!=>Re: Stella, I spoke to her. She can only devote sporadic attention to this Conference, can't really post messages. Very busy, exhausted.
franzjutta: I know her, I read some of her
books, she lived in
"Rhodesia", and as a South African progressive
liberal, she is
a very nice lady, protested against racism,
like all liberals and neo-liberals do, she also supported the liberation
struggle of
Mandela and the ANC.
nonpositivism: Bye Josue, your introduction was excellent. Thanks very much for all your participation today!
josuecc: BYE ALL¡¡¡¡¡¡ THANKS
carlzim: Interesting Scott. She was in jail under Apartheid. I saw the movie.
franzjutta: The lady, however, never questioned
the
colonial-capitalist society in which she lives,
and did not
question the toiling labour system around
her, and of course,
not globalization in its totality and its
implications for Africa
and South Africa. Beyond that, she is an excellent,
brilliant
writer.
SAYING: BYE !!
franzjutta: Bye, Josue!!!
franzjutta: Thanks for a brilliant contribution.
Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has left the conference.
franzjutta: Send me your file again now --- it failed before, please!
nonpositivism: I must also take my leave, cannot
defer work commitments any more. Thanks to all for a great and creative
dialogue today! A L O H A..........A D I
O S A T O D O S............!
carlzim: Franz, she says she is a leftist and opposes all this today.
franzjutta: Folks, I must go and cook now --
I am expecting
Jutta for supper in 30 minutes.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
carlzim: OK, folks. Bye.
franzjutta: Yes, Carl, she is "leftist" --
just like all those
ones you know.
franzjutta: IT WAS FASHION IN THOSE DAYS, TO
BE ARRESTED,
TO GO TO JAIL FOR A FEW HOURS, FOR A DAY OR
TWO. THAT'S
WHAT "WHITE" LIBERALISM AGAINST APARTHEID
IN SOUTH
AFRICA WAS ALL ABOUT! OF COURSE, SOME LIBERALS
WERE
TORTURED AMD JAILED, BUT THOSE WERE THE FEW
EXCEPTIONS.
franzjutta: Bye!
franzjutta: Bye! everyone!
franzjutta: Carl, send me your text, please.
franzjutta: Bye! Greetings to Fran from both of us!
carlzim: Yes, Franz.
franzjutta: Bye!
carlzim: Fran sends her greetings to all.
franzjutta: It was a pleasure, as usual, Carl.
Bye!