pandemonium 
Our Wednesday International Yahoo Chat
(Every Week, Wednesday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00 PM. Venezuelan Time, at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Scott (Florida, USA)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Carl (Teaneck, USA)
ORIGINAL TEXT OF THE INTERNATIONAL YAHOO CHAT:
The Rich and Poor Syndrome
MAY 22, 2002
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......
Scott's Introduction Begins
....
juttafranz: Yeah!!!!!
juttafranz: We made it!!!
nonpositivism: Jutta, reposting these lyrics
for you.........
jutta_schmitt2002: I made it.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please.
jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry for this embarrassing
delay!
nonpositivism: The Southern Politician preaches
to the Poor White Man,You're Better than The Blacks Don't Complain, You're
Better Than Them,You've been Born with White
Skin, They Explain........
juttafranz: Our Service Provider is playing
Monkey Tricks with us --- Japanese Business!
nonpositivism: So the Poor White Man's Used
in the Hands of them all Like A Tool,
nonpositivism: He's taught by the Rule,
nonpositivism: From the start while in School,
juttafranz: OK, from the start, Scott!
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, please continue.
nonpositivism: How To Hate.....But it ain't
him to blame,
nonpositivism: He's only a Pawn in their game.
- Bob Dylan, circa 1962.
juttafranz: Is that the beginning of your
intro, Scott?
nonpositivism: I suggest it's not just the
poor White man in the Deep South of the 1950's, but you too - you are all
Pawns in the
Game.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bob Dylan precisely identified
the poor white man's role vis a vis the big and powerful.
juttafranz: Scott, before we get confused,
and miss all points, ....
nonpositivism: Dylan's songs, controlled Academic
dissent, etc. are all useful for ultimately managing, controlling, detouring
co-opting
and suppressing change.
juttafranz: what exactly should we understand
by "rich" and "poor" here?
nonpositivism: The most effective mode of
suppression is co-optation. Noam Chomsky understands this very, very well.
As do most
radicals.
carlzim: You've got to be taught to hate all
the people your relatives hate.
nonpositivism: And it's something they simply
do not know how to fight.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - what Scott just
said reminds me of an "old" debate of ours: the "negation" is produced
and fostered from
within the system - remember?
carlzim: Richard Rogers, South Pacific, 1945
juttafranz: Is it an all-round category, poor
of heart, economic, political, social, racial, etc.?
carlzim: Yep. Franz .
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, after this appetizer,
what do you have up your sleeve for us today?
nonpositivism: Carl, regarding your question
I introduced with Dylan's song because I like the Midwestern twang when
he
underscores, "He's just a PAWN in their game."
nonpositivism: Ready for me to cut and paste
some interesting stuff which will complete the introduction?
jutta_schmitt2002: Ready.
juttafranz: Poor Bush, if he cannot convince
the Germans that Saddam is "dangerous".
nonpositivism: Franz: The Germans are only
a pawn in our game.
nonpositivism: Are you ready?
juttafranz: So, Scott, tell us first what
is "poor" or "rich".
carlzim: Proceed, Scott.
nonpositivism: Franz, I think you will get
your complete answer from what is about to unfold..........
juttafranz: This is pertinent to follow you
with scientific precision.
juttafranz: OK, don't blame misunderstandings
on me, later. Proceed .....
nonpositivism: From notes to a like-minded
friend:
juttafranz: OK!
nonpositivism: Right on, Dan!
I agree with the spirit of what you are trying
to convey. I'd like to believe that we each have a unique, undefinable
and inalienable
essence [Thomas Jefferson articulated this
Enlightenment-influenced precept, of course, in our Declaration of Independence]
which
cannot just be obliterated by standards of
material wealth and power.
However, the political/economic realities of
how you and I live day-to-day are not merely largely out of our hands,
but too often
determined by those with far more concentrated
wealth, power, resources than the vast majority.
nonpositivism: 1. The vehicles you can purchase
- thankfully for folks like us Volvos are around. But if Ford who now owns
Volvo
wants to discontinue the line.........
2. The Roads you travel on. Whether they are well-designed, safe, free from sprawl and congestion.
3. The choice of Foods available for your family.
nonpositivism: 4. The Information you receive
(90% of ALL Media you receive, from , all forms from Print to Broadcast
to Internet,
etc. is in the hands of 7 Major Media Conglomerates)
5. The Quality and Quantity of Medical Care you access. Your inability to sue HMO's.
6. The limits of your Social Safety Net, such
as Workmen's Comp, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security which vary according
to the whims and corruptibility of Politicians
(just about every US Senator is a millionaire, usually many times over).
nonpositivism: 7. How your community is zoned;
who can erect Housing or Commercial construction there. Whether you live
in
sprawl or human-scaled communities. All determined
by your County Board of Commissioners and influenced by the Development
Lobbyists who show up for every single hearing.
Against the Commission's decisions you have no recourse - except to vote
them out
every 2 years.
8. The criminal justice code; the civil justice system rules and procedures. The price of Justice you can afford.
nonpositivism: 9. Whether your country goes to war; how it polices itself, how it polices you.
10. Your level of taxation, the complexity
and institutionalized injustices
of the Tax code which you are powerless to
affect.
11. The quality of Public Education available
for your child. How much this country spends on Public Education. How much
it spends
on Defense.
nonpositivism: This is just the tip of the iceberg.
It's a dual reality. I'm not saying the individual
is meaningless or powerless. Far from it. Each of us does have unique and
unlimited
value in the deepest sense. We can feel this
perhaps with most resonance within our families.
nonpositivism: But the way human cultures have
continuously organized themselves - all over the world - for the last 6,000
years does
its best to negate the special sanctity, dignity
and spiritual inviolability of each of us by dictating modus vivendi governed
along strict
hierachical lines of political/economic power.
There are a few partial exceptions. I can think of 2 offhand:
nonpositivism: The Citizens Democracy of Ancient
Greece. The Athenian citizens literally directly voted on every significant
public
policy decision, including whether Athens
would go to war.
nonpositivism: There are a few countries, even
now with much more egalitarian distribution of wealth than to what we're
accustomed,
such as Israel and some Scandinavian countries
which disallow polarities of extreme wealth and homelessness. In these
nations
political power is also consequently much
less related to social class. Of course, these societies still have power
imbalances in favor
of a select few versus the many, but they
are mitigated.
nonpositivism: I therefore suggest to you:
Franz, Jutta, Carl and those who will read this transcript later that:
carlzim: While they search for Bin Laden in
Tora Tora, Flora Bora and Khandidar for the next 50 years.
juttafranz: Poor Me! Poor Us!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl :))
nonpositivism: 1. Inequality, profound inequality
is the heart of the Human Condition. Always has been and always will be.
nonpositivism: 2. By inequality I mean hierachies
of wealth/material resource/political control - even health.
juttafranz: They cloned a few already, Carl,
in case of urgency, should he die suddenly, over-run by diabolical fame.
nonpositivism: 3. You - we - in the macroscopic
sense are all pawns in this game and cannot change what inevitably will
repattern
itself.
carlzim: Yep, Franz .
nonpositivism: 4. Those who suggest Radical
Redistributions of Wealth or Power as morally correct solutions or desirable
on some
ethical grounds may have a point, but on practical
grounds they have demonstrated virtually no ability to realize this "dream"
and
should resign themselves to at best applying
a few mitigating touches here and there.
juttafranz: Scott, I am crying a vale of tears,
our poverty and pauperization have no limits!
nonpositivism: 5. Even these paltry efforts
may have zero or even negative success in achieving the egalitarianism
you are seeking.
nonpositivism: 6. Start believing in the Law
of The Jungle, Survival of The Self - and your family, The Strong preying
on the Weak.
Increase your own Net Personal Power. This
is your Destiny.
nonpositivism: Care to begin the open debate,
folks?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, your introduction
sounds very dense and conclusive.
carlzim: Scott, thank you for the excellent
introduction. I think that today, in a technologically advanced nation
in which intellectual
labor is the main labor exchange, media and
other means rather than perceived "great man" is used to achieve ruling
class goals; e.g.,
note various comments of Bush Jr. (not a perceived
"great man") about Castro (a perceived great man") and my comments based
on
forum material, as follows:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/20/bush.cuba.transcript/index.html
juttafranz: There's no hope, nothing "positive"
left for us anymore, we threw optimism throught the window, water, baby
and all, in
fact, the very White House through its main
window.
nonpositivism: You "pawns" have been checkmated.:>
carlzim:
Bush Jr.: "Today and everyday for the past
43 years, that legacy of courage has been insulted by a tyrant who uses
brutal methods to
enforce a bankrupt vision.
That legacy has been debased by a relic from
another era who has turned a
beautiful island into a prison."
nonpositivism: Carl, your point about changing
methods is excellent.
juttafranz: Explain more, Carl.
carlzim: Is Bush Jr. also talking about his
own vision for a 19th century-type America ruled by oil barons (LOL)? Bush
Jr. serves
global oil interests, and Castro serves global
nickel, siugar and tobacco industries by paying Cuban workers oin these
industries
poverty wages.
carlzim: Bush Jr.: "In a career of oppression,
Mr. Castro has imported nuclear-armed
ballistic missile, and he has exported his
military forces to encourage
civil war abroad."
carlzim: Does Venezuela (Chavez), Chile, Nicaragua
or any of the other CIA attempts to interfere in other countries ring a
bell?
carlzim: Bush Jr.: "The voices of the Cuban
people have been suppressed, and their votes have been meaningless. That's
the truth."
And similarity to the loser=winner take all
USA 2000 Presidential election?
carlzim: Bush Jr.: "Well-intentioned ideas
about trade will merely prop up this dictator,
enrich his cronies and enhance the totalitarian
regime. It will not help the Cuban people."
Enron's Ken Lay enriched his cronies 70 Billion dollars.
carlzim: Bush Jr.: "Mr. Castro, once, just
once, show that you're unafraid of a real
election. Show the world you respect Cuba's
citizens enough to listen to
their voices, and to count their votes."
Count their votes? Doesn't that sound too familiar? Again, USA 2000 Presidential election.)
carlzim: Bush Jr,: "In order to make sure we
know if they're free and fair, they must let
human rights organizations into Cuba, to make
sure that the elections are
free and fair. Once the 2003 elections are
certified as free and fair by
international monitors, "
Perhaps the USA should try this.
jutta_schmitt2002: Something that caught my
attention here is your definition of inequality, Scott, expressed in terms
of "objective"
inequality: access wealth, health, live perspectives,
etc., which made me immediately try to search for the factor of equality,
that also
has to exist. If IN-equality exists, so does
equality. And I dare to say the "equal" factor in the human condition consists
in that, all
over the "times and places", the different
classes that society was and is made of, coincide, in the last analysis,
in accepting the overall
of society: "We have always had poor and rich",
"the human condition has always been an unequal one". - That is, interestingly,
the
equality they ALL share.
carlzim: Bush Jr.: "... full normalization
of relations with Cuba, diplomatic recognition, open trade and a robust
aid program will only
be possible when Cuba has a new government
that is fully democratic, when the rule of law is respected and when the
human rights
of all Cubans are fully protected."
carlzim:
Yet USA offers these to many countries without
these features, such as China.
I welcome your comments.
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent remarks above,
Carl - the claims concerning Castro and his regime can equally be made
with regard to
Bush & Co.
juttafranz: Jutta, I also have problems with
equality, it is so unfying, in Nazi German, "Gleichschaltung", everybody
accepting the
same, be the same, acting in the same way,
thinking alike, and dying alike.
nonpositivism: Well, Jutta your observation
concerning the equal agreement that all are unequal is of course not inconsistent
with what
I am saying. The negative admission does not
negate the empirical facts.
carlzim: Thanks, Jutta.
carlzim: Jutta, where does equality exist?
juttafranz: Scott, examples of the current
empirical facts of "equality" in whatever form; the reality of it, please?
juttafranz: Could you please oblige with some
concrete examples?
nonpositivism: Well, Franz....no one wants
a cloned species - except perverts and sociopaths. But we can still talk
in terms of the
equal value we place on different lives, the
intrinsic perceived worth of every human being. This of course is strongly
derived from the
Enlightenment and influenced Jefferson. Sure,
here are some ugly examples:
juttafranz: "Equal value"? That we have, we
trust in it, the US$!
nonpositivism: The USA has 5% of the World's
population but consumes 40% of its resources. The Wealthiest American (Bill
Gates)
has a Net worth more than many, many countries.
juttafranz: Other human values are downtrodden
by the "Patriot Act".
nonpositivism: More facts of inequality:
jutta_schmitt2002: "Equality" exists in the
very acceptance of "inequality" all along history, Carl. It exists as the
mere fact, that unequal
circumstances, exploitation, oppression, alienation
have been established and perpetuated over thousands of years.
juttafranz: Well, that's what I call "human
equality, real exchange value", Scott. Bill is our paradigm of future "equality"!
nonpositivism: Your class position affects
your longevity and access to Health Care, wherever you are. The wealthiest
individuals in
the West have the best Health care. All others
have to scramble. This is true of Drinking water, eco-toxicity, down the
line.
carlzim: Jutta, in which situations are people
equal?
juttafranz: You said Knowledge is Power. Is
Equality also not Power? How will the "poor" ever get powerful, faced by
Bill Gates?
nonpositivism: Furthermore, the Wealthy nations
have the ability do disproportionately export their waste and pollution
to those
unable to stop it.
juttafranz: Why did the upcoming bourgeois
yell for Liberty, Equality and Fraternity? For threefold Power?
carlzim: Today, nationalism is a key global
ruling class strategy to divide the workers in one nation against each
other in the developed
world. We've seen this recently in France
and Holland, and now the Balkans. Fsacism is
starting to rear its ugly head here in Greece:
Greek anti-semitism:
http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive2/greece/greece.htm
nonpositivism: Franz, thanks for agreeing with
me. Unless there's some voluntary Redistribution which has never really
happened
before in Human History and cannot be rationally
predicted, the poor will stay poor.
carlzim: Guys, Fascism in Greece, birthplace
of Aristotle et al.
nonpositivism: Even in America with more class
mobility than many places only 4% of Millionaires originate from the bottom
quintile
or decile of the population.
jutta_schmitt2002: And the BIG question is:
How comes, that billions, who experience circumstances of exploitation,
oppression and
inequality, keep "sticking to their fate"?
- The clue has been given by Scott above, when talking about the "conditioning"
of the "poor
white man" - synonymous to all those NOT in
power. How comes, that putting ideas into people's heads would have such
an
enormous effect of enduring not only unequal
but unhumane conditions for thousands of years? How comes, that lies about
the REAL
condition would transform themselves into
sort of a "material force" that guarantees the perpetuation of those unequal,
inhumane
conditions billions live in?
juttafranz: Scott, is the problem redistribution
or distribution of wealth? Is the problem of poverty really the distribution
or
redistribution of goods, money or capital?
Or does the relation "poor" and "rich" have a completely different source?
nonpositivism: And once those millionaires
or billionaires secure their wealth, they reinvest it and protect it fiercely
- through
Governments or their own private mercenary
armies, or through the unjustice legal system. Checkmate!
carlzim: The home of Metaxis, Hitler's buddy
in 1930's.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl: agreed with your
observation above concerning nationalism as a tool and instrument for inhibiting
the
internationalization of the working class.
carlzim: The Greeks who beat the cr*p oit
of Mussolini in 1940.
nonpositivism: Franz, I would suggest that
the drive for Human Inequality of Power is greater than the drive for Human
Equality of
Power and Distribution of Resources. Each
society takes its own pattern to inevitable economic and social stratification.
carlzim: The far right party of religious/ethnic
nationalists was on TV in Greece (they
have their own 24 hour channel) talking about
"cleaning" Greece of the
xenos (foreigners). Zorba would oppose this,
as Kazantakis, the author of Zorba the Greek, was a leftist.
carlzim: Comments, folks?
juttafranz: Is not Power, by definition, the
very production and reproduction of undistributed surplus goods and values?
The
appropriation of the latter?
nonpositivism: Jutta, in answer to your question
I refer you to my Intro in MS Word which you have reviewed already. Perhaps
the
most powerful weapon is control of Information,
control of the Political Vocabulary, control of the very words in your
head and what
you see in print - if you are ever allowed
to learn to read.....get the picture? Knowledge likes to be exclusive and
perpetuate the
Drive to Power.
jutta_schmitt2002: Human inequality and human
equality are certainly the two sides of the same "human condition", Scott.
The
question is: Why, on both sides, this overall
fatal condition is being psychologically accepted, supported and fostered,
to the
detriment of the species as a whole?
juttafranz: And, do we really think that capitalists
would put the noose around their necks, would commit hara-kiri, by distributing
their very quintessence?
nonpositivism: The verbal diarrhea "packaged"
for mass consumption is very, very controlled. Perhaps now more tightly
than ever,
because oral history is being lost.
nonpositivism: No, Franz, They won't. Thanks
again for agreeing with me.
carlzim: How are ideas-the products of intellectual
labor-distributed?
juttafranz: One must be a great dreamer, a
fool beyond redemption, to think that redistribution of wealth and goods
would ever solve
the problems of globalization. This demand
is part of pan et circenses.
nonpositivism: Jutta, because Human Nature
is fundamentally flawed and irrational. It can't reprogram itself, and
it can't adjust to the
new planetary dimensions on which this struggle
is being played out. Man is Frail, Irrational, Emotive animal who has to
struggle for
attain any form of Reason.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - why do those who
HAVE the knowledge and power and stand on the "equality" side of the human
condition (=wealth, economic & political
power), do not actually do anything in order to change the overall situation,
knowing that
the whole species will perish in barbarism
if they continue to be so "equal" on their side?
nonpositivism: That's right, Franz. Even if
there were some token redistribution, inequality would reassert itself
deeply.
juttafranz: It was part of divide et impera
in the colonies, nowadays it is part of global disinformative rigmaroles,
to be discussed at
Group Conferences.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - EXCELLENT QUESTION:
How are ideas distributed - and I add: HOW DO THEY CONVERT
THEMSELVES INTO A MATERIAL FORCE THAT PREVENTS
PEOPLE FROM REBELLING AGAINST THEIR
CONDITION?
juttafranz: So, Scott, should "equality" be
a historic, emancipatory goal? If not, what then?
carlzim: Agreed, Franz. Mind control=intellectual
labor control.
juttafranz: Clearly, d'accord, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Why would people "interiorate"
as "god given" or "fateful" their own, miserable, precarious, inhumane
existence?
Worse even: How comes many of them don't even
notice "anything wrong" with their miserable condition?
nonpositivism: Jutta, because they may know
the planetary consequences intellectually but not emotionally, not as a
gestalt. It's like
the people living in California who know there
must be major earthquake within the next 25 years, but shove it out of
their minds
every day. Human mind is not programmed well
for long-term, global thinking. Not at all, in fact. Us tribal, local beasts.
nonpositivism: Jutta - look to conditioning
in regard to your latest query. Massive cultural conditioning and thought
control, now
augmented by international pressures such
as TV Soap Opera and Bay Watch fantasies which reach even poor kids living
on the
fringes of the Amazon River.
juttafranz: Jutta, ruling ideas originate
in material exploitation, and they enter dominated skulls as prayer, begging,
reconciliation, truth
commissions, conferences, charity, social
welfare, etc.
carlzim: Fascism in Russia:
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.05.17/news6.html
[FORWARD]
MAY 17, 2002 Ethnic Coalition Asks Moscow
To Combat Nationalism
By S.A. GREENE
FORWARD CORRESPONDENT
carlzim: "As Russia gets back to work after
its long spring holiday season,
some are expressing alarm at what they call
the biggest fascist
threat to Russia since World War II. As if
to illustrate the
point, on May 9, when the country traditionally
celebrates the
Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany,
...
nonpositivism: Continuing, Jutta....TV gives
them (people in the BILLIONS) a simultaneous stimulant to material values,
false
participation, and cultural homogenization.
It dilutes whatever initiative/inclination they have toward more probing,
more reflective
analysis. The medium is the message.
carlzim:
... several of the demonstrations and rallies
held in Moscow and across the country
centered on the slogan, "Russia for the Russians."
Just a few
weeks earlier, on April 20, thousands of skinheads
publicly
celebrated Adolph Hitler's birthday."
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I dare to say, that
your observation, that "Human Nature is fundamentally flawed and irrational",
is ideology
converted into a material force. It is in
the same line of argument that says "we have always had rich and poor"
- let's face it and thus,
let's accept it: HOW does this function? Why
do we go and search for the reasons why people steal, strike, go on a rampage,
etc. ?
Why don't we pose that question the other
way round: HOW COMES, that billions of marginal people ACUTALLY DON'T steal,
strike, go on a rampage, etc.? What inhibits
people from identifying their condition and rebelling against it?
carlzim: Human cloning plans in Russia:
From a Russian forum:
"Just last year the topic was raised, and yet,
the world believed that it
was unreal, and should not be approached,
yet in the back of someones
head, the idea was lingering on. Today it
seems inevitable. I'm definitely
not in favor. I don't think its right. Call
me old fashioned. why should
we clone? to put Hitler to justice?
carlzim: pravda
The Russian Federation, the United States of
America, China, France and
Italy are in the race to clone the first human
being.
carlzim: ----
Weeks after Italian scientist Severino Antinori
declared two women in CIS
countries and another in an Islamic one were
carrying human foetuses which
he cloned, it has transpired that four other
teams of experts are working
to the same end, according to US expert, Panos
Zavos.
juttafranz: Interesting question, Jutta!
nonpositivism: Jutta: turn it around: WHY
rebel against Inequality if it's our Genetic and Cultural Heritage of tens
of thousands of
years. It's natural. Get used to it. Most
people already are- and accept it. They also understand that moral concepts
of equality or
Wealth and Power are disconnected from Human
Nature and History and often lead to even worse....like Stalinism after
Czarist
Russia?
carlzim: " and that Russian and Chinese teams
"have made
important progresses". Zavos declared that
he knew that French chemist Brigitte Boisselier was involved in "the race
carlzim: However, the statements of Panos Zavos
appear strange, to say the least.
Having stated that he was confident that he
would "win" the race, he then
admitted that he had not begun any attempt
to clone a human being, and
said that the first human clone would be Chinese.
And that does not take
into account the three women already pregnant
with foetuses cloned by
Antinori.
nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz: To artificially
circumscribe equal political and social power for each human being in a
race of billions
of absolutely unequal (in abilities, drives,
potential, interests, health, luck, resources etc.) is ludicrous.
carlzim: Comments?
juttafranz: I know what stopped millions of
Blacks in South Africa, between 1900 and 1990 not to attack Baasskap" and
Apartheid
full scale: God, Final Condemnation, Racism,
Fear, Sabotage Acts, Terrorism Acts, Education For Barbarism, Afrikaner
Nazism,
etc. ....
jutta_schmitt2002: How can the affirmation
of LIFE DENYING conditions, man-made and as they have been established
by the
labour process, be a genetic and cultural
heritage? It seems the bugs are more life-affirming, natural, and, after
all "reasonable" than
homo sapiens sapiens.
nonpositivism: [I can't comment on your stuff
now Carl because it is really a parallel thread - off the Main Topic today
- that demands
more time to digest for a fuller analysis.
Probably I'll be able to comment later or after I read the transcript.*]:>
juttafranz: Well, that was the rehearsal for
Bush, he can now magnify this historic experiment; Hitler tried, but he
was not an
"American", he had to fail. ....
carlzim: Clones=mind controlled robots solves
inequality (class struggle).
carlzim: OK, Scott.
nonpositivism: Jutta, they are not life-denying
for everyone. For Bush and Gates, they (at least appear) to be life-AFFIRMING.
And
remember humanity's global self-awareness
of potential global eco-disaster or nuclear annihilation, etc. is also
extremely new. We are
not well-adapted for it. Millions of years
of evolution have programmed us for more short-term, local, tribal thinking.
We (most of us)
simply cannot or will not think "out of the
box" on this one.
nonpositivism: This is something those on
the Left have enormous difficulty confronting, much less surmounting.
juttafranz: Life, Scott, only restricted to
"human life"? What is human life worth without water and oxygen? Is this
what Bush and
Gates affirm?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, how comes, we cannot
think other than in terms of economic, political and social POWER anymore?
How
comes, we cannot think and fathom something
BEYOND economic exploitation, political oppression, social discrimination
and
human alienation? How poorly a "human condition"
is this? And who or what are those, who happen to notice this deplorable
jail,
and who begin to stick their noses out of
it? Are they still part of that miserable "human condition"?!
nonpositivism: Franz, You can rest assured
Bush and Gates believe that Human Life is Superior to and more important
than all other
Life on Earth.
nonpositivism: The non-Human living organisms
are Pawns in their game.
juttafranz: Then they are part of the Herrenvolk,
then, they are racists, nazis and fascists, per definitionem.
nonpositivism: There are both Human and non-Human
Pawns (a vast army of "resources").;)
juttafranz: What more scientific verification
you need, a historic reality par excellence?!
carlzim: They are trying to minimize risk-impossible
in Space colonization.
carlzim: ...the next phase.
juttafranz: But, Scott, returning to the "messenger"
and not to the "message", how could we eliminate the scourge of "rich and
poor"?
jutta_schmitt2002: The big challenge for the
Left, doubtlessly is, to determine, how ideology becomes a material force
to the point
where people are so alienated that they won't
even notice their (and the overall) deplorable situation anymore, and thus
are NOT
recruitable. The left never really cared about
and investigated with regard to the famous "subjective factor" (with a
few honourable
exceptions).
juttafranz: Or is this relation genetically
inborn, eternal, absolute, essentially human, humane and humanistic?
nonpositivism: Jutta, your question about
how to get BEYOND, how to transcend the current condition is profound.
It touches the
limits of Human Imagination.
juttafranz: Why not try to imagine beyond
human equality and unity, Scott?
juttafranz: Jutta's question complements my
question above, what's your imaginative message to the world.
nonpositivism: Jutta, the problem goes even
deeper. As Franz is suggesting, the universal patterns of inequality, hierarchy,
oppression,
have their roots in our Biology. This is something
that very, very few people on the Left - George Orwell is an exception
that comes
to mind - have ever been willing to confront.
jutta_schmitt2002: And precisely this "horizon
beyond", Scott, should have been or could have been the "genuine" human
condition.
nonpositivism: It is deeply in our Nature
to compete within our own species. "Greed is Good" - Gordon Gecko.
juttafranz: But, then, Scott, as we said in
other chats already, the solution is very simple, just use your imagination.
nonpositivism: Have you read your Darwin lately?
Humanity is not exempt. It's more complicated because we compete through
Cultural, not just raw Biology.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - one thing is to
define the "universal patterns of inequality, hierachy, oppression" etc.
as the
BIO-PSYCHOLOGICAL result of conditions brought
about by this sonorous species in the course of its historical process
of
producing and reproducing itself as a species
(the labour process), another thing is to assume, the human species is
"flawed by
nature" and thus sort of an accident in nature.
nonpositivism: We do not legislate against
abortion in the USA because it is considered "beyond the reach of effective
legal action."
Perhaps we should acquiese to a world of grossly
unequals because to strive for otherwise is beyond the limits of human
beings to
implement, as 10,000 years of History conclusively
prove.
juttafranz: Not only "humans" are "poor";
the rich threaten everything biologically on this planet. If we get rid
of the rich, in a
biological, genetical, engineering fashion,
harmony, equality and peace could return to the planet.
carlzim: May I ask, you think spreading Fascism
mainly in Europe and human cloning, which I offered, are unrelated to the
problem of
inequality-to the main topic today?
jutta_schmitt2002: I have to recall one of
Carl's remarks here from an earlier chat: even the notion of "competition"
is a notion
intrinsical and typical of the labour process
and its forms of ideology all along the road. Ideology turned a material
force.
nonpositivism: Jutta, whether you believe
Humanity to be Divinely Created, or Evolved from other forms of Life, or
both - or neither
- the fact remains that Human Behavior is
immensely, immensely flawed. Notions of Perfectibility are mere abstractions
that have no
basis in reality and should have no basis
in sociological or economic theory.
jutta_schmitt2002: Legislation favouring abortion
in the USA would certainly do a lot of damage to the future cannon fodder
needed
for "Amercia's New War", Scott.
juttafranz: The Bush administratio, Rumsfeld,
reserves for itself the right of "ASSASSINATION" of "terrorists", the right
to eliminate
that what threatens America, hence, by the
same right, why should the poor also not "assassinate", eliminate the "rich"?
Is this not
power logics, or is it megalomania?
nonpositivism: No, Franz - the Rich - or a
new Class of "Oppressive" Rich would simply re-establish itself. Orwell
knew this, and
you should too.
nonpositivism: Carl, if and when Human Cloning
becomes viable on a significant scale.....it may at some point cause us
to play out the
Inequality game in new and (to us) more perverse
variations.
nonpositivism: Like I said Franz, have you
read Animal Farm lately?
carlzim: Inequality=spreading global Fascism
and human cloning .
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - fully agreed to
your observation that human behaviour has been and is terribly flawed,
and that the notion
of "perfectibility" may not be appropriate.
The question here is, how comes?
juttafranz: Well, well, no hope for the poor
on earth, blessed are the clean of heart, for theirs is the "kingdom" of
Heaven! Therewith
our topic for today has terminated in limbo.
No redistribution of wealth necessary anymore!
carlzim: The spread of cloning plans to China
and Russia is significant.
juttafranz: Yes, I read about Trotsky and
Lenin, and I quoted the last sentences to you last time.
nonpositivism: Because Life Is Fundamentally
Flawed, Jutta. Life is primarily concerned with Survival and Reproduction,
with getting
along. The luxury of intellectual abstraction
creates concepts like Perfection which are scientifically or mathematically
useful but
dangerously inappropriate for living beings.
juttafranz: I cannot differentiate anymore
who is pig, who is man, who is Bush, and who is bin Laden!
nonpositivism: I call this the Utopian syndrome.
Only the luxury of deep Religious or Intellectual Meditation can produce
this alterted
state of consciousness, which helps keep humanity
going but is primarily although not completely a delusion.
jutta_schmitt2002: But folks - what if that
deplorable "human condition" of billions just gets life-denying and deadly
to a degree,
where billions do not have anything else to
loose but their very "lives" or rather "deaths"?! Can we imagine they would
be setting out
to "eliminate the rich", as Franz has proposed
above? If death itself cannot stop them, what else could?
juttafranz: Well, now we know what is a bush-man
or a Pig Laden, all their infinite justice spreads like wild bush fire
across the globe.
nonpositivism: Franz, I looked from your Computer
to Jutta's....but could not tell which was which!:))
jutta_schmitt2002: ??
jutta_schmitt2002: !!
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott. !
juttafranz: Well, Jutta is Franz, and Franz
is Jutta, and juttafranz is franzjutta, figure that out.
jutta_schmitt2002: You have some experience
with this matter, I see.
nonpositivism: Jutta - case in point. There
are millions of very poor street people or homeless in the USA who are
very passive and
accepting of their fate as "lumpenproletariat"
- at best. They do not visualize themselves as some kind of avenging army,
even if
Doomsday seems to be approaching they would
rather sleep through it, maybe with drugs or alcohol. There is no hope
in the
dispossessed or marginalized. Hope must rest
with the Middle and Upper classes. Sad but true.
carlzim: What's behind this?...
carlzim: Avoiding the real questions.
The controversy raging in the US over whether
warnings about potential
terror attacks by Al-Qaeda were ignored before
11 September hardly comes as
a surprise. What is far more serious -- and
has yet to be properly
investigated -- is why two successive administrations
took a series of
ultimately disastrous political decisions
concerning Osama bin Laden's
terrorist network and its backers, the Taliban
regime.
[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted
onto http://jid.janes.com on 23
May 2002]
juttafranz: Life is fundamentally flawed? Are
you suggesting Scott that homo sapiens sapiens alias homo homini lupus
is a miscarriage,
or a failed divine experiment?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl: Inequality, fascism,
and cloning - all elements are certainly related. However I think "big
cloning" will be a
matter of the post-unequal world, of the post-human
condition.
carlzim: Jutta, big cleaning today.
nonpositivism: Carl: Big Brother, Big Bush,
Big Gates, Global Oil, USA 5% Population with 40% resource consumption,
treats Latin
America as its buffer resource fortress and
playground. They're "behind" it - very openly. Maybe we should say they're
IN FRONT
of it, leading it. All the rest - you included
- are pawns.
carlzim: Big ethnic cleaning.
juttafranz: Sorry, my thoughts are faster
than my key-board, now and then it sticks; I ate a honey sandwich before.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hope may just be another
factor of ideology, Scott. - Unless you couple "hope" with your very own
being and
existence, and then you actually don't "need"
it anymore, because you KNOW yourself.
carlzim: Agreed, Scott. And they're in front
of 9/11
juttafranz: Also, it is full of Peter Pan
Pea-nuts, I thought that this was a quick way to become a USA President!
nonpositivism: No, Franz, I am saying to you
3 + all who may read this that concepts of Perfectibility which derive
from Religion or
Intellectual movements like the Enlightenment
or Utopian Socialism are exciting abstractions which generally have nothing
to do with
Life itself.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, agreed: First, the
big cleaning, and then, the big cloning!
nonpositivism: Life is irregular, disconnected,
not integrated, often random, painful, incomplete and always played out
on an
UNEQUAL playing field by UNEQUAL participants.
juttafranz: What has to do with Life, Scott?
juttafranz: Death? The Thanatos Drive? The
Socratic Hemlock?
carlzim: Today, we're in the big cleanin stage.
carlzim: Agreed, Scott.
nonpositivism: Carl, Big Cleaning = Elimination
of the Grossly Less Equal = Depopulation? What's your take on it?
jutta_schmitt2002: Big cleaning, Carl and
Scott, equals poverty reduction, equals the introduction of the era of
equality.
carlzim: Scott, depopulation to reduce world
to controllable 2 billion.
juttafranz: I thought that Life is straight,
a sure thing: All have to die! The Universal Law of Life on this Planet.
nonpositivism: Which, Jutta in the unlikely
event that does happend - will rapidly repattern itself as profound inequality!
juttafranz: Did anyone escape from this Alcatraz
of Life, Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: The uni-versal law of life,
Franz, is death, and the di-versal law of death, is life.
jutta_schmitt2002: Machines creating machines
- where is the inequality, Scott?
nonpositivism: Inequality is the Law of Life.
Franz, there is no escape. Accept your destiny to be an Unequal Actor on
an unequal
Playing Field in an existence which may not
even be comprehensible, much less perfectible.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, I think you and
I are equally strange!
juttafranz: It seems to me that this whole
circus, rich and poor, heads straight towards individual, social, national,
international and
transcendental death, to hell, to bush fire.
nonpositivism: Jutta, check back with me when
Humans have surrended the planet to Robots. Until then, I will focus on
the human
dimension.:>
jutta_schmitt2002: Complete strangers to that
so called human condition.
carlzim: US investigators claim FARC-PIRA
links
Investigators working for the Committee on
International Relations of the US
House of Representatives (HIRC) claim that
Irish Republicans who have
visited Colombia may have used the opportunity
to hone their own urban
terrorist techniques as well as training Revolutionary
Armed Forces of
Colombia (Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias
di Colombia - FARC) members.
[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted
to http://jir.janes.com on 16 May
2002]
juttafranz: What "human dimensions" are left,
Scott? Just look around and check them out!
nonpositivism: Ironically, probably the only
hope for Equality of Wealth and station is reprogramming - genetic engineering.
But that
scares me even more. A race of clones. Such
a cure isworse than the disease we now have.
carlzim: SPECIAL REPORT - Weapons of mass
disruption: radiological devices
IN APRIL 2002, two Afghan nuclear scientists
revealed how al-Qa'ida
attempted to use their services. When the
Taliban assumed power in 1996,
they hid radioactive materials, sufficient
to make dozens of radiological
weapons ('dirty bombs'), in the ruins of a
Kabul mental hospital and in the
basement of Kabul University's nuclear physics
department.
juttafranz: Well, Scott, Hitler and Verwoerd
tried it, to clone an Aryan Race, a Herrenvolk.
carlzim: A team from
Britain's Joint Nuclear, Biological and Chemical
(NBC) Regiment were taken
to the caches by the two physicists, Mohammed
Jan Naziri, and Jora Mohammed
Korbani, where they found a broken cobalt
60 radiotherapy machine;
containers of solid and liquid radioactive
material, some broken or with the
lids off; and instruments emitting radiation,
mostly left over from the
Soviet period.
[Jane's Terrorism and Security Monitor - first
posted to
http://jtsm.janes.com on 10 May 2002]
nonpositivism: Last I checked Franz, I was
communicating with 3 biological, Carbon and Water-based beings just now,
not some
collections of Solid-State Silicon circuitry.
That's merely the medium. We - the Human Species 0 are the messengers,
the operators
and the absolute masters of this dimension.
At least for now.
jutta_schmitt2002: Disease? What disease,
Scott? I thought the human condition discussed during this chat are natural?
Biologically
given? So, why call them or anything related
to them, a disease?
juttafranz: We now have the resources to fulfil
the deepest dreams of humanity. We never thought that the "end solution"
would come
so soon, so easily, interesting, Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: Disease? What disease,
Scott? I thought the human condition discussed during this chat are natural?
Biologically
given? So, why call them or anything related
to
them, a disease?
nonpositivism: Jutta, I was giving you and
Franz the benefit of the doubt there in accepting your implications of
the last several months
and your ranting above about conditioning,
horrible inequality and so forth - that the present inequality is a "disease".
Indeed, it may
Health. You may be the disease.
nonpositivism: :))(sorry about that one -
I think you know what I meant!)
juttafranz: My only question is: Is a cloned
species still human? And, can humans really be cloned, or simply reduced,
reduced from
poverty? Releieved from earthly poverty? What
are the answers?
nonpositivism: [I meant to say...not that
I think it was misconstrued.............Indeed, it may be Health. You may
be the Disease.]
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, do you think the
fact that there still exist movements, parties, groups - (in the end, all
terrorists) that
somehow, somewhere combat the status quo,
is an indicator of non-alienation, of a "humane condition"? Or is it all
the same?
jutta_schmitt2002: I am rather convinced we
are the disease, Scott. The best measuring rod here is if they start to
try eliminating you.
juttafranz: Jutta, and Scott, with smiling
dis-ease I follow your logical arguments.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, I'm glad you enjoy
our Schlagabtausch - please translate that one for Carl and Scott.
juttafranz: Battle of Words, the Mental Diadoch-Wars.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl I repeat for you:
Carl, do you think the fact that there still exist movements, parties,
groups - (in the end, all
terrorists) that somehow, somewhere combat
the status quo, is an indicator of non-alienation, of a "humane condition"?
Or is it all the
same?
juttafranz: A real, intellectual Muhammad
Ali Boxing, a Great Bout!
carlzim: All the same, Jutta.
nonpositivism: Franz and Jutta: Check out
the Star Trek episode Return of the Archons. A perfect metaphor for this
discussion about
the Society as Body and how it deals with
Health and Disease.
jutta_schmitt2002: Now, are we not glad here
that we don't sit all together in a merry discussion round, Franz, where
we probably
would switch from "the battle of words" to
"the battle of fists"? I understand Scott is fond of boxing ...
nonpositivism: Indeed I am, Jutta.
carlzim: All the same, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm glad to be in a CYBER
conference with you, Scott. ;)
carlzim: US investigators claim FARC-PIRA
links
Investigators working for the Committee on
International Relations of the US
House of Representatives (HIRC) claim that
Irish Republicans who have
visited Colombia may have used the opportunity
to hone their own urban
terrorist techniques as well as training Revolutionary
Armed Forces of
Colombia (Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias
di Colombia - FARC) members.
[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted
to http://jir.janes.com on 16 May
2002]
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - if it is all the
same, could we not speak of "equality" in this regard?
juttafranz: But, is not the real Disease,
the alienating non-relation between Poor and Rich, between Nature and Society,
Jutta &
Scott?
nonpositivism: Jutta, Haha...............You
know, I actually think that Prizefighting should be abolished. More dualities
next time.......
juttafranz: Well, Scott, we have the Bull-Ring
a few yards from my university office.
carlzim: Inequality for special privilege,
Jutta.
juttafranz: We are real Yahoo Fighters!
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. That round goes to
you, Scott. - Carl, they used to call it "guerrilla tactics". Today, it
is all EQUALIZED:
terrorist tactics, terrorist groups, terrorist
organizations. The unequals are the terrorists.
nonpositivism: No, Franz because we ARE nature.
We have all the elements of Stardust in our bodies. And we're remaking
stardust
here. There is no way we can be "apart" from
Nature. A dangerous abstraction. But we can feel less connected to Physical
Nature
because of the way modern urban and suburban
existence diminish Nature in our consciousness.
carlzim: Scott and Franz, the gladiators and
Minotaurs.
nonpositivism: My pawns and unequals, it has
been a pleasure today.
juttafranz: Scott, and where does Society
come from, your Spirit, Mind, Intellect, Reason? Not from Nature?
carlzim: Symmetry, Franz.
carlzim: Equal=Unequal.
nonpositivism: Society = Humanity (organized)
= Nature.
jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps we should connect
up with the bugs. They have been doing a better job along millennias than
humans.
juttafranz: Are they also not biological,
zoological, or did Jahwe have his finger in the human pie?
jutta_schmitt2002: Objection, Scott: Humanity:
unorganized Nature.
nonpositivism: Yes Jutta they have been around
for 300,000,000 years. Very robust.
carlzim: Orwell's Animal Farm.
nonpositivism: Compromise, Jutta: [attempted
organized].
juttafranz: Where did Society come from? Where
and How did it originate? Did Dr. Spock or the Stork bring it to Earth?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, with regard to an
earlier posting of yours: they used to call it "guerrilla tactics". Today,
it is all EQUALIZED:
terrorist tactics, terrorist groups, terrorist
organizations. The unequals are the terrorists
nonpositivism: Perfect, Carl. Some animals
are more equal than others. But Orwell remained a "practical" Socialist
till his dying day.
He just wanted to purge its Utopianism.
jutta_schmitt2002: Humanity is Nature having
lost its head.
nonpositivism: I think Jutta and Franz should
read more of Orwell's non-fiction essays. Some good books out there, good
essay
collections.
juttafranz: Well, I suggest that we read about
his works on Fascist Spain!
nonpositivism: No, Jutta, Humanity = Nature
has always had an Imperfect, "Crazy" head - but has not always had the
luxury to
*imagine* how it could be otherwise.
nonpositivism: The "Equalizers" are the Disease
who have lost their heads.
nonpositivism: The Willing Unequals are Nature's
Destiny.
juttafranz: Scott, the essence of Orwell you
can already find in Animal Farm, even in 1984, and we need not go to Catalonia
to find
the "Pudelskern" (Goethe).
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz. May we leave the
last word of this conference to you today. My stomach is ringing, and I
have to go and
eat something.
nonpositivism: Folks, I'm afraid my dialectical
juices are running low for today....need to refuel, get back to work.
carlzim: Orwell's Homage to Cataloni about
the POUM and Franco's holy war .
juttafranz: The Thoughts of the Day: There
will always be rich and poor. Nothing is impossible. What will be, will
be!
nonpositivism: Thanks, Tornado.
carlzim: Catalonia.
juttafranz: Yes, Scott, we read more than
1984!
SAYING: BYE!!!
carlzim: OK, folks. Great chat.
jutta_schmitt2002: Alright friends. It's been
a great pleasure and I am glad my technical skills allowed me to reconnect
with this
conference.
carlzim: Franz, I'll send you the log.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, I still deplore you
changed your online Name. I did like "El Guapo".
carlzim: Jutta, regards to Martin.
juttafranz: Scott, like always, I had great
fun with you!
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Carl.
juttafranz: Carl, needless to say, you surely
had great fun.
nonpositivism: Likewise, Franz. Folks, I will
say bye to all of you here. Thanks for a lively discussion!
nonpositivism: I will check back in periodically
for seismic aftershocks. A L O H A................
carlzim: Fran sends regards to all.
jutta_schmitt2002: I enjoyed this chat tremendeously.
Bye to all and keep those enthusiastic debate fires burning!
carlzim: Bye.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks you, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Our best regards to Fran.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all.
jutta_schmitt2002: Au revoir.
juttafranz: Jutta, where is Franz, how is
Jutta, will Juttafranz cook today, and will Franzjutta go and look at Star
Trek, with a Beautiful
Mind"?
jutta_schmitt2002: Juttafranz, Franzjutta
will cook a nice meal now!
juttafranz: Anyhow, folks, it was "great"
fun, greet your beloved ones!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all.