pandemonium
TRIALOGICS
Our Thursday International Yahoo Chat
(Every Week, Thursday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00 PM. Venezuelan Time, at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Carl (Teaneck, USA)
Stella (Mainz, Germany)
Scott (Florida, USA)
FROM THE ZENITH OF HOMO KENYAPITHECUS TO THE NADIR OF HOMO EURONIPPON AMERICANUS
3rd July, 2002
PLEASE NOTE:
Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
Greetings, it would take hours and hours to edit this
particularmanuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
"time" to correct everything!
Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To visit
our Home Pages:
http://www.geocities.com/juschmi/index.html
http://www.pandemonium2.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.transhistory.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/frogmobile/index.html
http://forums.delphi.com/exiles2001/start
To write to us:
franzjutta@cantv.net
To read our Previous Chats:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8545/chats.html
To read our Publications Online:
http://www.geocities.com/juttafranz/publications00001.html
http://www.geocities.com/juschmi/publications00012.html
To read our Scientific Material &
Documents:
http://www.transhistory.homestead.com/Our_Philosophy.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Folks, Visitors & Guests!
In future, until further notice,
regularly on Wednesdays,
sometimes, even on Sundays, we will have all
chats regularly
on Yahoo.
Kindly download and install the latest
Yahoo Messenger and
by e-mail, franzjutta@cantv.net , please, give
us your
"Buddy Name".
************************************************************
Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice
conference -
juttafranz-2450.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
SAYING: HI!
nonpositivism: I will begin my introductory
remarks by 2:05 or
2:10 at the latest. They can always be freely
reposted later.
nonpositivism: Hi Jutta, Hi Stella.
missnaranjahit: Hi all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Scott. Hi Stella.
jutta_schmitt2002: Where is Carl?
nonpositivism: Like we say here in the good
ole USA, I am ready
to rock and roll.
missnaranjahit: He will join later, he sent
a mail, Jutta.
juttafranz: Hi! Scott! Stella! Jutta! Carl
will come later.
jutta_schmitt2002: I bet you are, Scott. --
Thanks, Stella and Franz.
So let us begin - the floor is open, Scott.
nonpositivism: Glad you are ready for my aggressive,
in-your-face introduction. Let us begin, then........
missnaranjahit: Maybe this will wake me up,
proceed Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella - ponte las pilas!
jutta_schmitt2002: Sáca tu bate.
juttafranz: Scott, On Your Mark! Get Set! Go!!!
Awaiting The
Unknown!! Proceed .....
missnaranjahit: ;)
SCOTT's INTRO
nonpositivism: Coincidentally, like I told
Franz a few minutes ago
I am listening to the awesomely passionate
Classical/Tango Music
of Astor Piazolla - the late Argentine genius
of the Bandoneon who
created a new music. A reminder that fundamentally
we are all the
same.....
missnaranjahit: I like Piazolla.
nonpositivism: The Music of China, Africa,
South America, North
America, Europe speaks to the human soul -
our best and worst,
the agony and the ecstasy and knows no borders.
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm so uncivilized, folks - I don't KNOW Piazolla.
jutta_schmitt2002: Spent too many years
in the Venezuelan
Wilderness.
nonpositivism: Alas, Human Nature - not
just limited to our Musical
tastes - remains generally a constant over
the millennia regardless
of geography. The evidence is overwhelming:
juttafranz: It's not a Pizza, Stella!
jutta_schmitt2002: Let's see, Scott.
nonpositivism: [More on Astor Piazzola later, Jutta...!]
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella knows that, Franz
- I'm the one that has to
be educated.
missnaranjahit: Don't remind me on such things NOW Franz!
juttafranz: Download the latest version of Yahoo! Messenger at http://messenger.yahoo.com/
juttafranz: This message I just got!!
nonpositivism: We have always had hierarchies.
We have always had
Rich and Poor. The USA in fact has a 3rd. world
nation within its own
borders in places like the Urban and rural
ghettoes, although poverty
here en masse does not rival that in India,
for example.
juttafranz: We'll do that later, after the chat!
jutta_schmitt2002: Sounds all too familiar, Scott. Please go ahead.
juttafranz: Very familiar, Scott, please, proceed .....
nonpositivism: Humans naturally form groups
and social
hierarchies. This we have in common with all
primates, like
it or not. The one thing that truly sets us
apart from the
non-humans is symbolic language and speech,
but the same
basic drives are there: Survival, Food, Water,
Shelter, Sex,
Taking Care of Children, Rituals, Religion,
Territoriality,
Aggression, Altruism - all define Human Beings
in the State
of Nature. Charles Darwin asked a remarkable
question:
nonpositivism: Look at what an Organism
does. This sounds
simple, but it is not.
nonpositivism: We must be scientific and
avoid conceptualizations
of reality that do not match what is observed
directly and indirectly
through our senses. One such pitfall is unscientific
abstractions
about "human nature" such as Rousseau's noble
savage. Human
Nature is best understood by Anthropologists,
Archaelogists, etc.
who first and foremost observe what Human Beings
do and what
they have done.
jutta_schmitt2002: This sounds reasonable,
Scott - we'll get back to
this in the debate after your introduction.
nonpositivism: If something walks like
a duck, quacks like a duck,
copulates like a duck, defecates like a duck,
swims and flies like a
duck - and repeats this cycle through 10,000
years - it IS a duck.
Or a genetic line of Ducks. There comes a point
at which unusual stubborness/skepticism tilts over into denial. Like the
Indian
Religions which tell us that the Atomic Bombs
dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki were "maya" - merely illusion.
nonpositivism: So what have we observed.....over 10 - 20,000 years??
juttafranz: Hence, Scott, other Scientists
and Philosophers are a
bit out of cue, with their type of observations?
Do I understand you
correctly?
juttafranz: They cannot observe with precision
what human beings
do and what they have done?
jutta_schmitt2002: What, if something looks
like an egg, smells like
an egg, lies in the nest like an egg and "behaves"
like an egg? What
do we say if we stop looking at it for a second,
and when looking
back at it find a chicken instead?
nonpositivism: Humans of every color enslaving or marginalizing those with different skin colors. Senseless wars committed for reasons long forgotten, often catastrophic (lose-lose) for all parties. Empires dominating local and remote regions, exploiting all available resources at the expense of others.
nonpositivism: Go back if you will to Sumerian times and indeed it appears the Greeks were right - History is merely cyclical, with who has the upper hand at any time seemingly dependent on the Mutability of Fortune.
juttafranz: And what about human thinking,
Scott? Do they do first
and then think? Or do they think first and
then do, or do they do and
think at the same "time"?
jutta_schmitt2002: Quantitatively cyclical
or qualitatively cyclical,
Scott?
juttafranz: Is thinking such an auxiliary
trait of human beings, or is
it the differencia specifica?
nonpositivism: The rise and fall of the
Edifices of Power is almost
like a mathematical wave which intersects different
regions at
different times, indifferent to the individual
who finds himself at
the top or bottom usually by default.
juttafranz: In that case, where do we stand?
nonpositivism: "Human Nature" is indeed
part of this Nature, carries
part of the Energy of the Wave. We are participants
in the cycle,
but our basic drives and their results on the
macro level do not
change very much. It's where you catch the
wave that informs your interpretation of reality.
juttafranz: Is this valid for all human
beings, without exception,
Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - please keep
elaborating. Let us know
when we can get the clubs out for the debate.
juttafranz: Is this valid for the whole
6 billion bunch, including the
"Bushmen", the "Illuminati" and "pygmies"?
juttafranz: I'm following, proceed, these
were just in-between
reflections.
nonpositivism: Ergo, if the Southern Hemisphere
had "caught the
wave" of precise Mathematics, Logic and Applied
Science and leapt
ahead of the North, today it could just as
easily be the USA that
is fearing the next coup inspired by Venezuela
as the reverse.
Venezuelans are no different from Americans
or Chinese or Africans
or Eskimoes, for that matter. Economics, History
and Human Nature
have their relentless logic - or illogic depending
on your point of view. No group has any special immunity to ideologies of
dominance and
exploitation. Indeed, we are all equally inclined
in this direction.
Who gets the upper hand however is largely
out of the hands of any
one individual. In fact, the framework for
these transitions usually
moves chronologically slower than the pace
of one human existence,
so perhaps ...
juttafranz: To follow better .....
nonpositivism: There is little more than
we can do than observe. Can
we push the system at all? Maybe. Churchill
may indeed have "saved" Western Civilization (for at least a few hundred years)
from Nazi
domination by standing up to Hitler during
those 5 crucial days in
May, 1940. In our lifetimes we do get similar
opportunities to make
a difference, although not necessarily on this
grand scale. Like
Shakespeare said.........
nonpositivism: "There is a tide in the
affairs of men, which if not
seized..." We must all be ready to seize the
moment and do what
we think is best. Thus we complements the "Macro-Wave-Static"
approach with "Dynamic-Micro" and push and
hope for the best.
End of Introduction.........
juttafranz: Excellent, Scott!! Thanks!!!
nonpositivism: P.S. At least know the Macro-Wave
Reality before
dedicating your Dynamic Micro Energies to control
what seems to
be within your grasp.
nonpositivism: Now it's done! All out to
dissect, debate, discover
deeper concepts..........!
missnaranjahit: Thanks for the intro Scott.
nonpositivism: U are most welcome. Like
a Jazz musician, it was
80% improvised.
juttafranz: Now, Scott, in spite of the
current low or high tide of
human affairs, I am somewhat in the doldrums.
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent introduction
Scott. Thanks. - What, if
others think for us, and we do not even realize
it? What, if we
*think* our thoughts are our own, original
thoughts but they aren't,
and we are just reproducing what we have heard,
read, got to known
of by education, the erudites, the newspapers,
and so on? What
wave are we going to ride on?
nonpositivism: Franz, given the pressures
you face in Venezuela,
it's more than understandable.
nonpositivism: Jutta, no easy answer. I've
often wondered how
much we can "abstract out" that is quantify
how much of our
thought is truly autonomous. Perhaps there
is no clear separation.
Thoughts may be more or less individual or
collective-cultural,
not exclusively either/or.
nonpositivism: <listening...>
juttafranz: I just don't know how to make
a "difference", how to
take up arms against the sea of troubles that
you have set free; I
do not find the bridge over these troubled
historic waters; you
flooded us with tormentos, that did not come
in single file, but
in batallions. Let me see where to begin .....
jutta_schmitt2002: 1st observation: Human
beings may enumerate
a thousand features that supposedly distinguish
them from the
realm of the animals - the soul, thinking,
language, the ability to
anticipate, the ability to remember - but,
regardless of what they
think the difference is, they start to differ
from the animals the
historical moment when they begin to produce
and reproduce their
lives as a species with the help of tools,
of technology, that is,
when they start to develop what we have called
a non-relation
towards nature. ...
missnaranjahit: *listening*
jutta_schmitt2002: This is, what the human
being DOES, what it has
done ever since it came into being and existence.
jutta_schmitt2002: 2nd observation: The
human species, as the
species which produces and reproduces its "collective
survival",
establishing a non-relation towards nature
and in the course of
this process towards its own "members", creates
conditions that
become decisive for any further "acting" and
thinking, behaving
and relating. ---- Here, within these conditions
created by the
species itself, lies what could be compared
with Scott's term
"human nature", or "human constant".
juttafranz: Well, this famous anthropolgists
and ethnologists like
Dr. L. S. B. Leakey discovered in the Olduvai
Gorge in Africa,
Jutta. The only way for him to discover the
"missing link" to the
apes and monkeys, was to study the tools, the
reproduction of
tools, the intellect that was objectivated
into these huma products,
and he came to the conclusion, thinking, and
not observing, that
making tools, labour, was the "missing link",
the "thought
connection" of homo sapiens sapiens, homo habilis,
homo
zinjanthropus.
jutta_schmitt2002: We have, at least, two
inter-related variables:
the human species impacts on its environment
and the environment
"impacts back on" the human species.
missnaranjahit: Carl is online, please send him an invite.
jutta_schmitt2002: The totality of all
its multifarious
relations / non-relations is, what "identifies"
the human
species. - Carl is invited.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the
conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Carl. Welcome.
nonpositivism: Hola, Tornado!
missnaranjahit: Hi Carl.
carlzim: Hi, folks.
juttafranz: By the way, without ever studying
or going to Africa,
the Marxist Engels knew this earlier, in the
annexo to his book,
Dialectics of Nature" (1884), he showed the
role played by labour
in the transition of man from ape. He was surely
not an
anthropologist or enthnologist but a scientist
and philosopher,
with a sociological and economic touch.
juttafranz: Hi! Carl!!
carlzim: What's going on?
carlzim: Hi, all.
nonpositivism: Jutta, don't want to deflate
you but Jane Goodall
disproved your dichotomy about Man vs. Primates
based on
Toolmaking Technology about 40 years ago. Franz,
such a
conjecture by Marx is nothing better than humorous
pseudo-science. Remember Marx thought that Africans were inferior, so I'm
not sure we should even laugh at his strange
anthropological
speculation.
nonpositivism: Jutta, for you: what constitutes
a tool? Is
fire-making "a tool" in your parlance?
nonpositivism: By the way, Jutta and Franz,
once Goodall
(whom Leakey himself hired from the UK to Africa
on this incredible,
unique project) told Leakey about her discovery
of Chimps creatively
making and using tools, Leakey quipped:
nonpositivism: "Well, we had better be
ready to change the definition
of Man, or welcome Chimps into the Family!"
jutta_schmitt2002: Specific conditions
that arise from the production
and reproduction of the human species at different
stages of the
entire process bring forward specific thought
and action with regard
to this production/reproduction, specific technology,
specific
situations of abundance / scarceness, specific
rites, beliefs,
cultures; specific "interpretations" of the
given, historical moment,
etc. It is a very complex process of even,
uneven and combined
levels, degrees and (di-)mensions. - Scott,
toolmaking technology
PLUS all the other elements that Jane Goodall
or anyone could find
in order to distinguish "the crown of creation"
from the animals.
juttafranz: Scott, I am happy that Marxism
is "pseudo-science". Also
that we have such darlings like Jane good in
all to refute anybody,
and to safe-guard all the absolute truths.
nonpositivism: Franz. Jane Goodall like
any good scientist shies
away from "absolute truths" or any monolithic
judgment. It's
primarily observation with Theories struggling
to even partially
describe and predict phenomena.
juttafranz: Well, Scott, to refute you
have to have an "absolute
truth" in your hand-bag.
carlzim: From another perspective:
Apparently each culture of humans has its own
special talents and
approach to life. They might treat others the
same as they treat
themselves. They might succeed at the attempted
"Young Turk"
experiment which attempted to save the Ottoman
Empire after WW1,
which failed mainly because the Turkish Muslims
wanted to dominate
and the Armenians were slaughtered.I think
the hypothetical 3rd
world country might be on their own.
juttafranz: Otherwise, unknown knowledge
and obsolete authors may
turn up and bash your dear refutation.
nonpositivism: We should not get hung up
too much on what
separates Humans from Primates. Most scientists
agree today
anyway the difference is not in kind, but in
degree. Such Comparisons
do have some usefulness for understanding the
different
manifestations of Human Nature we have observed
over the last
several millennia. They should not be overdone.
juttafranz: Thanks, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Toolmaking is the expression
of a relation
between thinking and acting, neural activity,
the usage of the
brain, leading to the articulation in language,
symbols, etc. etc.
and their "materialization" as acting upon
nature.
nonpositivism: But at the same time, let's
listen to those who
would argue against my belief that if power
and technology were
inverted today the Southern Hemisphere would
not hesitate to
conquer or exploit the North. Different ideologies
would give it a
different style or inflection, but the outcomes
would tend to be
similar. Do you agree, Carl? Stella?
juttafranz: Scott, fearing to become Tarzan
Knowall, I would be
very careful to refute anybody, and to declare
others as
"pseudo-scientists", because this would open
the flood gates
for others, to call me an idiot par excellence!
nonpositivism: Who has the courage to take on my question?
carlzim: Scott, I agree. Iran and Al Qaeda
are trying to accomplish
that today.
juttafranz: I am on my way, but without
courage, rather with
wall-flower shyness, Scott.
carlzim: Resurgant Islam.
nonpositivism: Except for Carl, the sounds
of silence. Good.
The debate is over. See you later.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott ---- I agree that
it would be the very same,
but not because of the fact, that "human nature
is essentially flawed"
or that Hobbes is right when stating "homo
homini lupus" (the
Rousseauian version you have discarded yourself
- the "noble
savage"), but taking into consideration the
way the human species
have come to produce and reproduce themselves"
up to the absurd
degree, where inimaginable material abundance
is being produced on
the one hand and inimaginable material human
misery on the other.
juttafranz: Silence is golden, speech is silver, Scott.
juttafranz: But patience is a virtue.
jutta_schmitt2002: Are you leaving, Scott?
nonpositivism: Carl, I agree that there's
a global challenge to the
North explicit and implicit in Terror from
Al-Qaeda. Even Norman
Mailer recognizes this.
carlzim: Castro and drug running:
http://www.newaus.com.au/us276_castros_drug_running.html
http://www.cubacenter.org/media/news_articles/drug.html
nonpositivism: Jutta, you took me too seriously!
Haha....No, I have
all the patience in the world - for the next
30 minutes or so!
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. No need to throw
the keyboard into your
direction ....
juttafranz: Scott, I might be a tortoise,
running behind Bugs Bunny,
but let me consider your question with the
reflection that it
necessarily merits.
nonpositivism: So Jutta I'm glad you agree.
I would differ with you
slightly. Humanity itself i.e. Human Nature
is a driving force in the
Production Process of Advanced Industrialism.
What we are in now
is not necessarily a "state of alienation"
from some noble
pre-industrialized Human innocence.
juttafranz: Firstly, the working, labouring,
behaviouring Man, homo
habilis, homo zinjanthropus or homo sapiens
or homo sapiens sapiens
are with us, not only approx. 20 000 years,
in which occurred that
what you have elaborated.
juttafranz: "He" is here since about 3
million years. Let's look at his
totality.
nonpositivism: Rather, what we see around
is no better, no worse,
than a reflection of who and what we are -
and the kind of world we
have historically wanted to create.
juttafranz: Your question points to an answer that has been answered hundreds of thousands of years ago already.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl: "resurgent Islam"
does not have the glimpes
of a chance to take it up against the "Western
World", because, due
to even, uneven and combined development of
the historical labour
process, their productivity, socially organized
labour, technology
etc. is infinitely inferior to that of "the
West".
nonpositivism: Listening, Franz to your
"thunderbolts of eternal
knowledge" from ages ago..........
juttafranz: In fact, go back 20 000 years
and ask the precursors
of Western, Northern Civilization, a similar
question, and then
you'll note that you could not even ask the
question.
carlzim: Jutta, resurgent Islam has allies in the North.
carlzim: Fifth column.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I have a problem
with your beloved
term "we". --- Can you imagine millions, perhaps
billions of
people who have, up to today, daydreams or
reflections of
historical shadows about something different
than eternal
exploitation, domination, discrimination?
carlzim: Romania is part of 3rd orld Europe.
Whatever happened to Communism in Romania?
BUCHAREST U.S. actress Nicole Kidman will use
a bus formerly
owned bycommunist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu
as her make-up
truck during the filming of her latest movie,
the Romanian press
said on Monday. Kidman is expected in Romania
in mid-July to
film ***"Cold Mountain"*** with award-winning
director Anthony
Minghella, which tells the story of a U.S.
soldier -- played by Jude
Law -- injured in battle who return home to
his lover, AFP reported.
juttafranz: The Nubians and Mandingos that
"discovered" America, did
not introduce a homo homini lupus or homo salvage
bonum, neither
in Africa nor in America, in fact, they had
no idea what you would be
taking about.
carlzim: The German-built bus, ordered
specially for Ceausescu in
1969, includes a luxury bathroom, wood-paneling
and is equipped
with everything from an electric generator
to a telephone switchboard.
The vehicle was auctioned off two years ago
with several others
owned by Ceausescu, who was summarily executed
on Christmas day
1989 after the country's bloody revolution.
carlzim: It was bought by Romanian movie
company Castle Film,
which has signed a deal with Miramax to make
the movie.
The film will be shot in the Carpathian Mountains,
near the central
town of Risnov.
A replica of a 19th century U.S. farmstead
and an Indian village are
being built on location for the film.
juttafranz: Very interesting indeed, Carl.
nonpositivism: No, Jutta, I can't. Most
just want to survive. They
have no long-term vision. But their collective
efforts small and large throughout the ages have yielded the current situation.
And I would
suggest to you the motivating factors are as
much internally driven
as externally imposed - if you will grant me
this abstract dichotomy
for the purpose of this discussion.
jutta_schmitt2002: Can you imagine, Scott,
that millions or even
billions did not "opt" for this wonderful world
"we" live in today?
Can you imagine a radically split and opposed
"we", where the one
part is the negation of life, energy, joy and
happiness of the other,
vast majority?!
carlzim: Jutta, Resurgent Islam wants to control this wonderful world.
jutta_schmitt2002: They have no chance
anyway, Scott - it is a
MYTH, created to divert people's attention
to the real players of
the sick game that is going on on a world wide
scale at this moment.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry.
nonpositivism: Jutta, if you would ask
the Kung! what they think of
our world, I'm sure they would agree it's some
inside-out, inside
technical nightmare. So would untouched Aborgines.
But what about
the Aborigines within Australia who willingly,
enthusiastically
modernized within a single generation? Perhaps
the most incredible sociological adjustment ever made by any one group of
people. Ask
them if they want to go back to a non-industrialized
existence, Jutta!
juttafranz: Hence, our alternative of a
"good" or "bad" exploitation, oppression, discrimination or alienation, was
not on the order of
the day for more than 2 million years. What
you ask is a specific
"modern" perversion, it has no alternatives,
it is unique, it is that
what exists since 20 millennia, marked by its
specific "space and
time", parameters of its universal reality.
Nothing else fits in there,
and could ever fit in there. Hence, the question
is absurd, is like
asking the chicken to become an egg, in the
way that the egg became
a chicken. This is my reply, and I am no chicken,
but not valiant at
all.
nonpositivism: So Jutta et al. my point is rather subtle:
nonpositivism: Humans have opted in for
the Wheel, Farming, the Domestication of Animals for Metallurgy, for Mathematics,
for
Rationalization, Efficiencies of Markets. What
we have today is
the cumulative results of thousands of years
of such choices as
much as the deliberate oppression of one group
alienated by any
"labor process" to subjugate everyone else
to its whims and for its
own benefit.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, why would any
negative observation (in a
negating sense) of today's reality have to
be equalled with "going
back to the stone age"? - That is certainly
not the question.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, thanks for your
explanation. -- The hen
certainly cannot convert back into chicken
and egg.
nonpositivism: Jutta, you can't easily
have Industrialization without
the historic framework that produced it. Franz,
my last points apply particularly to your argument about going back before
cro-Magnon
man, before Homo Sapiens Sapiens. In fact,
more of Homo Sapiens
Sapiens history is characterized by Human Nature
as I've observed
it rather than as how you postulated in some
primordial innocence.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ditto, Scott - you "can't
easily have
industrialization without the historic framework
that produced it";
-- you cannot ask the hen to reconvert into
chicken or egg.
nonpositivism: Humans are restless, energetic,
creative, dynamic.
Once someone hit on the way for more dependable
food supply, it
happened and spread all over the world. Yes,
Farming. Humans
were unable to understand the sociological
and economic
transformations that would result. BUT THEY
OPTED IN
NEVERTHELESS. PARTIALLY BECAUSE HUMANS ARE
PROGRAMMED FOR SHORT-TERM THINKING- never more
than a
few generations, and for local applications.
jutta_schmitt2002: Are you programmed for
short term thinking,
Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, another word from you, please!
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella -- any observations, questions?
missnaranjahit: I am listening.
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay.
nonpositivism: In answer to your earlier
question, Jutta......not sure
if you understood my remarks about Aborigines
or maybe chose to
artificially simplify. The Aborigines who've
adapted enjoy all the conveniences you and I take for granted - that are the
product of
tens of thousands of years of choices and human
cultural evolution.
They have experienced both modes of consciousness
and living.
If the state that Franz describes (gatherer-hunter)
is so compelling,
so natural, why do not some freely return to
this existence while
they still have the chance? Or express more
alienation and
dissatisfaction with their current predicament
as "wage-slaves"?
juttafranz: Scott, I have fun with you,
simply because you area
pioneer, simply an excellent "Yahoo Fighter".
juttafranz: You are a new renaissance-man,
in the true sense of the
word.
nonpositivism: That is what I mean by Choices,
Jutta. To talk about
the Aborigine as an alienated being whose innocence,
whose
Transcendental connection with Nature has been
irrevocably
severed, is to ignore some of the facts on
the ground. It is not
intellectually responsible.
juttafranz: By the way, Scott, I want to
link to your site, what is
the precise URL?
nonpositivism: Franz, I am humbly flattered
by your compliment.
I am blushing here a little.
juttafranz: No, it's true, no joke -- without
you, and your eviternal
input, our chats would not be so explosive,
so excellent. Also, this
must be said -- often I said this to Carl already!
Now, I say it to thee!
nonpositivism: Folks, New Renaissance.com
is currently getting a
"facelift" and is offline. When ready for new
Spectacular Grand
Opening, I will tell all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, what you observe
with regard to the
Australian Aboriginees has to do with the even,
uneven and
COMBINED development of human labour across
history, and
with the few remnants of earlier modes of productions
or ways
of life. As I said earlier, diagnosing and
negating today's reality
is not equivalent to turning the wheel of history
back - impossible
anyway. I think the very dynamics of HOW the
human species
have come to produce and reproduce themselves
is decisive, not
their "opting" for something.
juttafranz: I looked for it today, and found it nowhere.
nonpositivism: But Jutta look at your terminology.
"Dynamics" is
the very word you used. If you believe that
people never "opted in",
you're back to a totally passive view of human
existence.
nonpositivism: You can't have it both ways!
carlzim: **************
SECURITY
http://www.janes.com/security/
**************
Jane's Consultancy assesses vulnerability
of US infrastructure
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/misc/
janes020627_1
_n.shtml
[Jane's Consultancy - 27 June 2002]
juttafranz: Scott, she can have it three
ways, even much, much
more.
nonpositivism: Thanks Carl, Jane's is very widely respected.
carlzim: A crash in Paraguay
THE FINANCIAL chaos in Argentina has sparked
off a banking crisis
in neighbouring Paraguay that could escalate
into political chaos.
The crisis erupted last week after news that
the South American country's biggest bank, Banco Aleman, had suddenly collapsed.
[Jane's Foreign Report - first posted onto
www.foreignreport.com on
4 July 2002]
juttafranz: I'll look at this report, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Dynamics - people acting
upon the environment
and the environment acting back on people.
juttafranz: She can have her cake, can
eat it, cannot have it, can
have it a n d not have it, can neither have
it nor have it, etc.
nonpositivism: Franz, spoken like a truly loving husband. Jutta must surely be basking in the glow.
carlzim: Musharraf's real enemies
Pakistan's self-appointed President General
Pervez Musharraf should
be a deeply worried man. Internal opposition
to his rule is mounting, militants are threatening to assassinate political
leaders in Kashmir
and even his Western allies are beginning to
lose patience with his apparent inability to track down fugitive supporters
of the former
Taliban regime and the Al-Qaeda network.
[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted
onto http://jid.janes.com on
3 July 2002]
jutta_schmitt2002: Here comes the screen, Scott ----> *swing!*
carlzim: Revamped FBI set to go on the offensive
The overhaul of the USA's Federal Bureau
of Investigation (FBI)
announced on 29 May marks its adoption of a
global intelligence
strategy that will highlight pre-emption, rather
than investigation, of terrorist attacks.
[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted
to http://jir.janes.com on 16
June 2002]
jutta_schmitt2002: Folks ---- sorry, we
have to pack the clubs in for
today.
juttafranz: Not only that, I bake the cakes
for her, then her cheeks
glow!!!
nonpositivism: Jutta, that's fine about
Dynamics. On that we agree,
but it still leaves unanswered the question
of why you're always portraying those not at the apex of power as relatively
passive ideological and physical slaves of industrialism.
nonpositivism: I don't agree with that assessment.
carlzim:
Homeland security needs more Arabists
President George W Bush has outlined the most ambitious ever re-organisation of the US national security system in early June.
[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted
to http://jir.janes.com on
16
jutta_schmitt2002: They are more alienated
than the Australian Aboriginees, Scott, perhaps as enslaved, alienated and
"passive"
in the sense of slaves to their businesses
and to their hunt for profit.
carlzim: The blood hounds
Mike Swindells outlines the benefits of training dogs how to sniff out blood.
[Police Review - first posted onto http://www.policereview.com
on
3 July 2002]
nonpositivism: Carl: unfortunately Helen
Caldicott is right. Bush is
a figurehead on Ship of State. Chancellor Cheney
(governing from Underground complex) is running the show.
nonpositivism: Jutta....there's something
circular about an argument
that always returns to alienation from some
abstraction as the
reasons why humans do things.
carlzim: Yep, Scott. Big oil.
nonpositivism: Look at what an Organism
does. Going on 20,000
years now. The record is clear.
juttafranz: Folks, Jutta is answering a call.
juttafranz: Furthermore, we have a slight
inconvenience for today --
I have to be off to classes in 20 minutes.
Remember next time, our
chat will be on Thursdays, at the same usual
time, because my
graduate class ends. Hence, we will have no
time limits on
Thursdays anymore.
nonpositivism: I would like perhaps to
discuss the role of religion in
all this. Caldicott made some great points
in her speech at U Vermont recently about how apocalyptic Christianity is
giving believers like
the right-wing Christians in the Republican
machinery, Heritage Foundation, American Enterprise Institute, etc. extra
zeal in their Militarization of this planet. Can we discuss now, or do we
have to
wait for next time?
FADING OUT ....
juttafranz: Is that OK with you, folks?
missnaranjahit: With me it is ok, Franz.
carlzim: OK with me.
juttafranz: OK, I'm happy, that solves the problem till next year!!
nonpositivism: You mean ok to discuss next
time, 'cause Franz and
Jutta have to go? That's fine by me, too!
carlzim: Visit this apocalyptic Christianity
forum after chat:
carlzim: http://forums.delphiforums.com/Jesus7/start
juttafranz: OK, Jutta and I will try still
to reply to Scott's remarks
above, before we have to close down today.
nonpositivism: Thanks very much, Franz.
I will be here till 4:00 p.m,
then checking periodically.
juttafranz: OK, for next time it is fine.
Concerning Scott's last
remarks, Jutta is coming in 2 minutes.
nonpositivism: [Carl, thanks. You may also
want to visit the Boston University Millennialism Project....an important
offshoot of this
thinking and key to understanding the whole]
juttafranz: Religion is a very wide topic.
carlzim: Thanks, Scott.
SAYING BYE ...
juttafranz: Scott, what about the idea
of discussing this topic next Thursday?
jutta_schmitt2002: Back, sorry.
juttafranz: Does anybody want to introduce
the topic?
nonpositivism: No problem, but I will not introduce.
Someone else deserves a chance.
juttafranz: Jutta is back.
juttafranz: Well, scott, I had over 100 chances!
juttafranz: Who wants to compete with me, please?
nonpositivism: Stella, Stella..........Please!
missnaranjahit: No thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, Scott, Carl, Stella
--- there are still so
many questions open here, but I am afraid we
have to postpone discussion for next time. I can see you have arrived at
religion
already, and we were still discussing alienation....
juttafranz: Carl, Jutta?
nonpositivism: Jutta, all eyes are on you.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hm.
carlzim: http://forums.delphiforums.com/Jesus7/start
jutta_schmitt2002: Shall I give it a try then?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, what about you? ))
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, I will go for next
weeks introduction.
juttafranz: Fine, excellent, a quorum! Jutta
for Popess!!
carlzim: Jutta, after chat visit http://forums.delphiforums.com/Jesus7/start
nonpositivism: Yeahhhh!!!!! Jutta for Popess!
jutta_schmitt2002: Applause, please.
missnaranjahit: Excellent, Jutta.
missnaranjahit: *clapclapclap*
juttafranz: Dominus vobiscum!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott ---- here comes my
desk! *swing*
juttafranz: Et cum espirit tuo!
jutta_schmitt2002: Folks, we gotta go!
juttafranz: OK, Folks, then we can expect Scott's
4th July
Fire-Works, next week.
jutta_schmitt2002: The students are waiting
to torture us.
nonpositivism: OK, it's been a pleasure! Bye
to All!
juttafranz: Scott, would we see an UFO perhaps?
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Scott, bye Stella, Carl.
missnaranjahit: By all!
nonpositivism: Haha.......Thanks again to Stella,
Carl, Jutt and
Franz my favorite cybernauts these days.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Stella.
juttafranz: Why do Americans mostly see UFO's?
And, nearly
always on the 4th of July?
carlzim: Bye, all. Till next time.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, I'll visit the forum
tonight. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Until next time.
juttafranz: I always wondered why, have sleepless
nights,
cannot solve this riddle. Please help, Scotty!
jutta_schmitt2002: Franzzzzzzz ---- we gotta
rush.
juttafranz: BYE, EVERYBODY. I MUST GO AND EARN
MY "DAILY BREAD"!!! HASTA LA VISTA!!!