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HAPPY BIRTHDAY & SAYING:  HI!

.... 

juttafranz: Yeah!!!! Iiirriiisss!

nonpositivism: OK, shall the Popess begin?

iiiiriiiis: Yeah!!!!!

iiiiriiiis: Hi All!

nonpositivism: Iris, long time no speak! Glad you could make it!

juttafranz:
HI! Folks!! Jutta will introduce our chat today; Thereafter I will give
a very brief
introduction concerning the critical views of two European erudite
experts on
the issue. But, above all, before all, let's sing: "Happy Birthday!!!
Iris!!!"

jutta_schmitt2002: Excuse me!

iiiiriiiis: Stella and Iris here!

nonpositivism: Stella and Iris - one location??!!

iiiiriiiis: Carl, Scott, Franz, Jutta - it's a pleasure!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris:::::::: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOUUUUU! )

carlzim: Hi, Iris and Stella.
iiiiriiiis: :)
juttafranz: Happy Birthday .... Cumpleañeos feliz .... !!!

iiiiriiiis: Thanks, mi pana, pana!

carlzim: Happy birthday, Iris!

jutta_schmitt2002: Cumpleañeos felíz, Iris!

nonpositivism: Iris, if you had Voice Enabled you could hear me singing
here...............Feliz Cumpleaños a Tí ...

jutta_schmitt2002: Applause for Iris, please.

iiiiriiiis: We are eating a delicious cake which Stella made.... want
some ?

jutta_schmitt2002: *clapclapclapclap*

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay folks. The Popess will speaketh right now. Are
you ready?

jutta_schmitt2002: Tell me when you're ready.

iiiiriiiis: Thanks all, its a pleasure to see and hear you all again!!
Thank you Scott!!!

nonpositivism: Estoy listo.

iiiiriiiis: We are ready to start! 
 

JUTTA INTRODUCES THE CHAT .....

jutta_schmitt2002: Fine. Fasten your seatbelts.

iiiiriiiis: Listos para tu introducción, Jutta, and sorry all for being
late!

juttafranz: Now, Jutta will introduce our chat today; Thereafter I will
give a very brief introduction concerning the critical views of two
European erudite experts on the issue.

jutta_schmitt2002: Greetings - Franz, Carl, Iris, Scott; friends and
guests, and all you strangers
About religion will I speak today and of its dangers!
Firstly then let me tell you, that this sword is double sided
As humanity with hope and despair it has provided.
Heart of a heartless world, the sigh of the oppressed creatures
Is hardly but one of its infinitesimal features.
Another face that religion has shown across the ages
Is oppression - written on thousands of history's pages.

jutta_schmitt2002: We ask: why hope?, yet find the human condition so
dire
That it needs divine projections to keep burning its fire.
Love, hope and belief have been banned to the transcendential realm
Allowing misery, discrimination to overwhelm
True cosmic action in the Here and Now of the moment's flow
Impeding warm solidarity amongst humans to grow.
The realization of the human kingdom remains postponed
With dignity and happiness ad infinitum dethroned.

iiiiriiiis: What a poetry!

jutta_schmitt2002: How many a "chosen people" have not declared
themselves lords
Pronouncing inferior and fighting with all kinds of swords
The "barbarians" - wretched of this cruel, divine battlefield
Facing the hated "masters" with honesty - their only shield.
Yet once having swallowed, with baits, sinkers and also with hooks
The oppressor's religion, they all have become sorry crooks
Pigs look to men and men to pigs and all indiff'rently join
Either one of the sides that constitute the very same coin.

juttafranz: All for your birthday, Iris!!!

iiiiriiiis: Congratulations, Jutta! Just give us some time please to
carefully study what you wrote, please.

jutta_schmitt2002: Forgive me folks, but for reasons of restricted time,
I cannot continue with my "Sonnet" here but have to switch to normal
discussion mode. This coin, friends, has a name: the master-slave
relation with its subsequent master-slave mentality, that is
co-responsible for the perpetuation of economic exploitation, political
oppression and social discrimination, throughout the ages and up to our
"modern times" of globalization.

nonpositivism: Proceed!

jutta_schmitt2002: Is this too fast, folks?

juttafranz: What a juttanette -- post-Shakespearian!!

nonpositivism: No, it's good.

jutta_schmitt2002: On the slave-side of the coin, we find the often
convenient, masochistic subjugation under a "higher authority": God, the
providence and the history of salvation are in charge of their "fate" -
fact, which saves the believers from many a burden, such as doubting,
thinking on their own account, negating the status quo, having to take
their own responsibilities for their acts and thoughts and having to
actually and actively live their own lives.

iiiiriiiis: We will have to read back for a moment, but proceed please,
Jutta.

juttafranz: Enjoy your birthday gift, Iris!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: The higher entity (be it a divine, be it a mundane
authority) thinks and acts for those on the slave-side of the coin; hope
and belief substitute act and thought and deprives those on the
slave-side from developing an autonomous, independent, upright posture.
They fully subscribe to God ("our father"), the state ("our country"),
the ruling political elite ("our government"), authorities on all
socio-political levels ("our leaders" - both, reactionary and
revolutionary), and often willingly get absorbed by those latter ones.
Those on the slave-side of the coin literally "disappear" in the total
affirmation of the status quo, of their own exploitation, oppression and
discrimination.

juttafranz: Reading. ....

juttafranz: Proceed, Jutta .....

iiiiriiiis: We actually are doing so, Franz and all!

jutta_schmitt2002: The religious master-slave mentality, deeply rooted
in all spheres of social life, also expresses itself in the realm of
consumtion - commodities often have the same master status as have the
"entities" mentioned before, and consumers are slaves to commodities,
trends, fashion, etc. People - the so-called "individuals" with their
illusory "freedom" of - whatever, choice at best, are billions of
conform automatons hiding in mass consumtion and mass culture, in the
total affirmation of their masters (commodities in this example).

juttafranz: D'accord!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Briefly and concluding my introduction, a basic word
on the master-side of the coin: with hope and belief as the substitutes
of true act and independent thought, the "slaves" can be manipulated by
their masters on the basis of ignorance and impotence.
jutta_schmitt2002: The Popess has spoken. Thanks for your kind
attention. End of my introduction.

juttafranz: By their "bliss", but our "folly", Jutta.

juttafranz: Now, the Pope will give you a brief introduction too.

juttafranz: But, after your comments, tell me when you are ready.

nonpositivism: OK, Jutta. It sounds to me like you're an atheist.

iiiiriiiis: Excellent, Jutta; besides, you touched on an issue -
commodities people are hiding after by all means - which Stella and me
have been briefly discussing about an hour ago in another context.

juttafranz: Congrats, Jutta, for mixing Shakespearian sonnets with
heavenly bliss; I just see nectar and manna flowing .....

nonpositivism: (Excellent poetry)

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I'm glad you are getting to know me.

juttafranz: I suggest that we wuill discuss this all after my intro --
the two
juttafranz: Unless you have another approach. And want to have the
blessing of the Popess right now.

nonpositivism: But remember, Jutta, everyone - including you - believes
in something. More on this later.

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris and Stella - after Franz' intro, please comment
later.

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. Franz, please proceed.

juttafranz: Scott, to answer such questions, I want to give us the
quintessence of religion first.

iiiiriiiis: Yes, Jutta. Alright, please procceed, Franz.

jurgen784: Good introduction Jutta. I am hear joing the group with
Samuel. Roldán .

jutta_schmitt2002: Hola Roldán!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bienvenidos todos!!! )))))))

juttafranz: OK, Samuel & Roldan!! Welcome, my students!!!
 

FRANZ INTRODUCES THE SECOND PART .... 

juttafranz:
Two European thinkers have analysed the very quintessence of
Christianity and
modern Western, monotheistic religions. To understand historically the
global
religious impact in ideology, mind and thought control, very briefly, in
about
10 - 15 minutes, I will summarize the main ideas of Feuerbach and Marx.
 

jutta_schmitt2002: A special hello to Jürgen-Samuel and Roldán!

jutta_schmitt2002: Fine Franz. Please proceed.

iiiiriiiis: Hi, Jürgen-Samuel and Roldán!

iiiiriiiis: Proceed, Franz...

juttafranz:
The 19th-century German philosopher and moralist, Ludwig Andreas
Feuerbach,
was born on July 28, 1804, in Landshut, Bavaria, now a Province of
Germany.
He died on September 13, 1872 in Rechenberg, Germany. He was the fourth
son
of the famous jurist Paul von Feuerbach. His father forced him to study
Theology, but soon he abandoned this career, and in Berlin became a
student of
Philosophy under the guidance of the famous German philosopher Georg
Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel.

juttafranz:
He studied Natural Science, and he showed great interest in topics like
death
and immortality. In 1828, he began to study natural science at the
University of Erlangen, and two years later, he anonymously published
his first
book, Gedanken über Tod und Unsterblichkeit ("Thoughts on Death and
Immortality"). Exactly what you mentioned, he attacked the idea of
personal
immortality, explaining, that after death, all individual human
qualities are
being reabsorbed into the Cosmos, into Nature.

jurgen784: Anyways is necessary to observe that the most of comsumers
slaves in modern capitalistic systems are concient slaves, even if that
doesn`t give them real happyness.

juttafranz: Just now Samoel!!

juttafranz:

This means that already very early in his life, Feuerbach was an
atheist, a
materialist, attacking religious Mind Control. Already before 1840, he
wrote:

"that Christianity has in fact long
vanished not only from the reason
but from the life of mankind, that
it is nothing more than a fixed idea."
 

juttafranz:

This idea was developed in his work, Über Philosophie und
Christentum (1839; "On Philosophy and Christianity"). But already in his

Abälard und Heloise (1834) and Pierre Bayle (1838), he was introducing
these
themes.

iiiiriiiis: Proceed please, Franz.

nonpositivism: Those atheists pre-Darwin are an interesting bunch.

juttafranz:

This critique of Religion was epitomized in his titanic work: Das Wesen
des
Christentums (1841; The Essence of Christianity). In this work, he
formulated
the theory, that "man" is to himself his own object of thought, and that
Religion
is nothing more than a "consciousness" of the Infinite.
His starting point was to analyse the "true or anthropological
essence of religion."

juttafranz:
As "anthropological essence", he portrayed God "as a being of
understanding,"
"as a moral being or law", in nuce, as " love." It's as simple as all
that, God Is
Love! But the true consequence of this view is the idea that God is
merely the extensive self-projection of man's intensive nature. In other
words,
Man, Big Brother, the Illuminati, is the creator of God, and not vice
versa.
Religion is a fantastic mental invention of Man The Ruler; of course,
these
"innovations" include a "free trial" of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, and
some
"shareware", i.e., its myriad of souls, spirits, angels, saints and
popes.

iiiiriiiis: We are following, Franz...

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

jurgen784: Just try to explain to "middle class" and "high class",
specially in developing countrys that they are not so and that they are
dependent of the international capitalistic system because, in part, of
their vicious for comsuption. If you explain so, you will have a
problem, overall in the superficial context of my generation.

juttafranz: Agreed, Jurgen!!! Continuing ....

juttafranz:
We need not study medieval life, in order to note how these were
utilized to
mind-control the impoverished serfs and peasants. Until today, these
sickening
spectres spook around in our minds. These keep us in "good spirit", they
keep
our "spirit high". As bourgeois liberation, Feuerbach suggested that Man
should
reappropriate his essence, which he had ripped from himself by
hypostatizing it
in the fantastic religious idea of God. This explanation of religion is
so obvious,
yet billions just cannot grasp its emancipatory essence; they prefer to
clothe
their dear "souls" in foggy, smoggy array.
 
juttafranz: Abandoning Hegelianism and attacking religious orthodoxy,
Feuerbach stated
expressis verbis, that the God of Christianity is an Illusion! Of
course, Marx
criticized this strange materialism in his famous Thesen über Feuerbach
(written 1845/46). Besides, Feuerbach published other works, like
Theogonie (1857) and Gottheit, Freiheit, und Unsterblichkeit (1866;
"God,
Freedom, and Immortality").
 
jutta_schmitt2002: Remember Feuerbach, Jürgen and Roldán? That was
Mariano's exposición oral.

juttafranz: Scott, this would interest you: What then did Feuerbach
consider "consciousness" to be? This question is
extremely important for education, for conscientization, for
emancipation. For
Feuerbach, which are the basic elements of Consciousness, that either
could generate Mind Control, or resist it?

nonpositivism: Carl has suggested to me that there were
Technological/Cultural pressures from the Ruling Elites through their
Intellectuals to motivate new Industrial proletariat class by freeing
consciousness from religion to an extent. This issue deserves further
exploration.

juttafranz:
Well, the aswer is a full dose of orgonic, erotic tranquilizers: Reason,
Will and
Love. What a remarkable Trinity! A Mighty One! Concentration,
Centralization,
Globalization. For sure, such an Emancipatory Trinity could blow the
Illuminati
off the Information Highway, out of the Milky Way.
nonpositivism: good poetry, there, Franz. Perhaps we should rename our
group the Emancipating Cyber Poetry Conference!

juttafranz: Yeah! Scott.

jurgen784: It was not Samuel. That´s me Roldan. But I´m sure Samuel
agrees.

juttafranz:
However, the Encyclopaedia Britannica gives us the following summary of
the
essence of this philosophic issue:

"Feuerbach interpreted the Christian mysteries as symbols of
the alienation of human properties absolutized as divine attributes,
and he criticized the contradictions of theology that are found in
such concepts as God, the Trinity, the sacraments, and faith. Man's
reappropriation of his essence from such religious alienation is
consummated in the "new religion" of humanity, of which the supreme
principle is that "man is God to man."

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, Roldán!

juttafranz:

Thus, in globalization, a "new religion", affirming new crusades, new
wars, new
religious "symbols" and other holy "mysteries" could be extremely
dangerous
things, allowing Mind Control to sneak in through the back door. At any
event,
we are still filled to the brim with feudalist, absolutist religious
relicts.

juttafranz: For Roldan and Samuel:
It reminds me of the Venezuelans who call their dearest "Mi Negra",
and this is supposed to be a most loving, tender term; however, at the
same time they make jokes about "Negroes": His Name is "Negro",
and his Surname is "Mierda" (Shit). No Venezuelan would accept that
their dearly beloved is Mr. or Miss "Shit"; yet, they can't fathom,
can't
grasp, that they are fully mind-controlled, filled with racist ideology.

juttafranz:
Similarly, we talk about our wonderful "spirit" or "soul", and we try to
convince ourselves that it is original, authentic, that it has no
relation whatsoever with religious entities, and yet, surreptitiously,
we are victims of intellectual fraud, in other words, we bamboozle
ourselves. We could just as well say, that we are sweet "nazis" or
loving "Pharisees". Concepts like the "Soul" and the "Spirit", the
"One", are quintessential terms for ideology, idealism, religion and
theology, in one word, for Mind-Control!

carlzim: Folks, mind if I transgress to an issue of utmost concern to
the USA, which will have global implications-a national system of
informants like KGB, Stasi, Securitate and Castro's internal spy
network. This will be a long message. OK?
 

juttafranz: Carl, for you, you like the Russians:

juttafranz:
Feuerbach proposed that God was the extension of human aspirations, and
that
Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, and others held similar views? For Christians,
God
is Sustainer, Creator and Judge! Of course, many thinkers and writers
protested
against these justifications of God. Literature, drama and plays are
full of
examples in which writers, although influenced by Christian culture,
attack
such justifications. A classical example can be found in the Russian
novelist
Fyodor Dostoyevsky's treatment of the misery of children in The Brothers
Karamazov.
 

carlzim: This is happening in America.
Operation TIPS:
http://www.citizencorps.gov/tips.html

carlzim: Operation TIPS - the Terrorism Information and Prevention
System - will be a nationwide program giving
millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship
captains, utility employees, and
others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity. Operation
TIPS, a project of the U.S.
Department of Justice, will begin as a pilot program in 10 cities that
will be selected.

juttafranz: One minute more, Carl. i'm nearly finish!

juttafranz: Now cocerning prayer, an important instrument of religious
mind and thought
control, the very Feuerbach remarked:
"The most intimate essence of religion is
revealed by the most simple religious act: prayer."
In evolutionary terms, historically, prayer appears to be neither
universally
progressive nor progressively regressive. Whether mystical, ceremonial
or
personal, prayer expresses the individual or collective experience of
the
unknown, of cosmic mystery, that inspires or threatens the dependent
"creature", it corners him, but also surpasses his imagination; however,
by
means of prayer, he tries to seek and to establish a dialogue with the
transcendental or supernatural.

carlzim: OK, Franz .

juttafranz:
Exactly this faculty Mind Control is destroying, perverting it,
deviating it
towards economic consumption, social perversion and mental slavery. By
rote,
prayer inculcates Mind Control in the very "soul".
Now, the young religious Marx had his first "critical" experience when
he met
Hegel in Berlin. At first, the Christian Marx felt Hegel as being
"sickening"; in
fact, -- he really became ill, -- and the reason, in a letter to his
father, he gave
as follows: "from intense vexation at having to make an idol of a view I
detested."
 
juttafranz: What did Marx say about Religion?
"Man makes religion, religion does not make man,
religion is indeed man's self-consciousness and
self-awareness as long as he has not found his feet in
the universe. ... Religion is the general theory of this
world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in
popular form, its spiritual point'd honneur, its enthusiasm,
... It is the fantastic realization of the human being inasmuch
as the human being possesses no true reality.

The struggle against religion is therefore indirectly a
struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion."
juttafranz: This is what Jutta cited poetically before.
juttafranz:
And now, here is Marx's precise definition of religion:

"Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of
real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion
is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a
heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium
of the people."

Allow me, just to add: "It's the prozac of, by and for the people!"

jutta_schmitt2002: Reading / following.

iiiiriiiis: ...same here...

carlzim:
Operation TIPS, involving 1 million workers in the pilot stage, will be
a national reporting system that
allows these workers, whose routines make them well-positioned to
recognize unusual events, to report
suspicious activity. Every part icipant in this new program will be
given an Operation TIPS information
sticker to be affixed to the cab of their vehicle or placed in some
other public location so that the toll-free
reporting number is readily available.

juttafranz:
Folks, therewith we have dealt sufficiently with the Religious
Element of Mind Control, as explained by Feuerbach and Marx.
I welcome your comments.

nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz, your analysis (or that of your quoted
Philosophers) is far too limited and one-dimensional. Here are some
points you may or may not want to consider:
juttafranz: Now, we can attend to all your questions.

jutta_schmitt2002: We will consider anything, Scott. Please proceed.

carlzim:
Everywhere in America, a concerned worker can call a toll-free number
and be connected directly to a
hotline routing calls to the proper law enforcement agency or other
responder organizations when
appropriate.
Operation TIPS is coming in August 2002.
 
nonpositivism: 1. Einstein, perhaps the greatest scientific genius who
ever lived, believed in G-d. As he put it, the G-d of Spinoza. He also
said that Jewish values were the hope for all Humankind.

juttafranz: Scott, all our philosophies are limited, yours too --- there
are more things in Heaven and on Earth than are dreamt of in your
philosophy, Scott.
juttafranz: So learn something from our limited philosophy too, please
Scott, at least, try!!!

nonpositivism: 2. Max Weber in the Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of
Capitalism came up with a radically different interpretation of how this
ethic underpinned creative Merchant and entrepreneurial capitalism.

carlzim: For documentation, visite these sites after chat:
Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020716-75882632.htm
Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63924-2002Jul12.html
Both liberals and conservatives seem worried.
Rom another forum:

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - TIPS is the extension of the Department of
Homeland Security and Defense into the lives of the ordinary people,
converting them into the eyes of the State and into each other's
policemen and watchdogs.

carlzim:
"Here's a quote from the Washington Times article:
"The Justice Department will enter the information into a database,
which will then
be broadly available within the department, and to state and local
agencies and local
police forces."

carlzim:
Did you catch that? They will be entering the information into a huge
database...accessible from anywhere. So, if the Orkin man doesn't like
the books on
your shelf and thinks they might be "suspicious"....do you think that
information is
going to be examined for its worth...and then thrown away if it seems
innocent? Ha!

nonpositivism: 3. Huston Smith, Professor of Religion, makes excellent
arguments in favor of religion as an absolutely valid consciousness.
Interestingly, Smith does not believe strictly in any one religion - he
believes a measure or dimension of truth is accessible by all of them.
And some of it is purely non-verbal, non-positivistic.

carlzim: It will be entered in the database. Obviously, these informers
aren't law
enforcement professionals who will be sifting through activities or
remarks and
choosing out the really suspicious ones. They're going to be getting
everything that
strikes them as a little bit...off...and then it's going into the
database.
This is Stasi stuff.."
 
jurgen784: For everybody, specially for Jutta. About venezuelan
xenofoby: It is almost impossible to understand the specific type of
racism that we have in Latin America for others western people. Remember
that, overall in Venezuela, we are product of a great mix. In the 1960´s
the poet and politic Andrés Eloy Blanco answer the US embassador (about
why did not segregated "negroes") that the only withe man in Venezuela
was him, and that just bacause of his last name (Blanco).

juttafranz: Samoel & Roldan, kindly formulate your questions again, so
that we could attempt to reply to them, within our humble, human,
intellectual limits and limitations.

carlzim: Tips is expected to start turn USA into KGB-Stasi-Securitate in
August 2002.

nonpositivism: Furthermore, it may very well be that there is a strong
genetic basis for religion. It's strongly present everywhere, even in
the "Advanced West." It pervades every single culture around the globe.
That says something about who we are. Neanderthal Man showed evidence of
religion in their Burial of the Dead. You may also want to read William
James' The Varieties of Religious Experience.

juttafranz: Samoel, please choose "BOLD" the big "B", at the left of the
Yahoo window below, so that I could read you better.

jutta_schmitt2002: For Jürgen and Roldán: And yet, lamentablemente, all
of Venezuelan society is deeply racist, they all "adore" the "white"
Europeans / North Americans, and they discriminate themselves, among
themselves, according to the "colour hierarchy". Look at everybody's
attitude towards Aristóbulo Istúriz on the one hand, and towards Irene
Sáez on the other hand.

nonpositivism: Arguments that Man invented religion as a fiction to
secure his emotional place in the Universe do not speak to many of these
issues. Man IS a religious animal - it comes out of our emotions. Man is
an emotional being with an emotional, not merely a
mechanical/intellectua grasp of reality.

jutta_schmitt2002: Again, for Carl: TIPS is the extension of the
Department of Homeland Security and Defense into the lives of the
ordinary people, converting them into the eyes of the State and into
each other's policemen and watchdogs.

carlzim: I think religion will be connected to Tips. Spies in the church

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl.

nonpositivism: This dimension to the Religious experience - Awe, or the
Mysterious - is something that rationalizations cannot touch. It's 2
completely different dimensions of viewing reality. Although in a
supreme intellect like Einstein they are fused.

carlzim: Jutta, I know Jutta. But Tips will get worse.

jurgen784: Of course there is racism in Venezuela. But is necesary to
enphasis that there is so much more tolerancy. Racist jockes are part of
our traditional "bochinche", we do not understand good maners and
protocolo like British or others westerns.

jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen and Roldán: Sadly, the so-called "jokes" hide
and twist the real attitudes that stand behind them.

juttafranz: Students, "racism" is embedded in the very prevalent Roman
Catholic Religion of Latin America. How would a Venezuelan sleep with a
Black Jesus hanging on a cross, above his bed? The whole night the guy
would have night- or black-mares. Why are there no black angels, unless
they fall from heaven?
Christian religion was in the frontline to sow racism, to develop
ignorance in
the whole world.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, why does the unknown, the mysterious, the
emotional necessarily have to be linked to religion? And what, in this
context, do you understand by religion? The monotheistic religions?
Animism? Polytheism? The belief in a "personal god"?

nonpositivism: Jutta, Franz et al. (especially you Europeans out there)
Another book you should read to better understand the
multi-dimensionality of the religious experience - from an American
perspective - is Stephen Carter's The Culture of Disbelief. Again, you
will pick up nuanced arguments from these folks which should provoke
some original thinking.

nonpositivism: Jutta, apparently it is Human Nature to do so. There is a
feeling of connectedness, of meaning that Humans deeply crave, ergo the
Religious consciousness. It's almost pre-programmed. And it can take
many forms, including but not limited to those expressions you mentioned
in your question.

carlzim: I ate Kashe (buckwheat for KGB) and Mamaliga (cornmeal, grits
for Securitate) for breakfast today (seriously). Delicious.

juttafranz: Religion is the expression of a certain level of
consciousness, of a man that has not found himself as yet, still does
not know himself ; meanwhile, what Bush disseminates in the Churches at
this moment, as Charity in Bill Gates style, is the expression of
disinformation, of infowarfare, of man who has lost himself forever; and
all, who defend gangsters, murderers, human bombs, for religious
reasons, have lost themselves forever too.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - and we'll be glad to get a short synopsis /
synthesis on these matters from you via mail or chat every now and then.
-- Carl, glad your diet includes KGB and other secret services food )

nonpositivism: Religion ultimately is about Values. And Values are at a
level higher than Science or Logic, truly man-made inventions about
which he is self-consciousness. Therefore the continuing appeal of the
Transcendental and non-verbal.

carlzim: From a forum:
"I can't help but think of all the false reports that are filed with
police and social
services in acts of spite or vengeance. It then becomes the
responsibility of the
accused to disprove the charges. Guilty until proven innocent.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

nonpositivism: Carl is guilty until proven innocent. Should we let him
back?

jutta_schmitt2002: Let's get him back. I can read him already.

juttafranz: Iris & Stella, please comment to the aforesaid, please!!

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl thrown offline by TIPS.

carlzim: H, folks. Thanks

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl.

carlzim: Thanks .

carlzim: Setting our citizens up to spy on each other is truly heinous.
Will the children be next
to report on their parents? What kind of a country will we become when
no one can
trust anyone? This is truly a case of divide and conquer; for if we
trust and help one
another their power would be greatly weakened.

nonpositivism: Franz, your remarks above seem to seek a dichotomy
between "genuine" varieties of the religious experience and those which
merely serve state power. But there is no clear division, only
continuities.

juttafranz: Samuel and Roldan, just for the record, from which cities do
you come?

carlzim:
I am seeking ways to more actively contest the powers that be. If we
don't find more
active, peaceful and legal ways to intervene with them we will soon not
be able to
speak out at all."

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I still don't understand, why the
non-scientific, the non-logic, should only be graspable by religion, or
in religious terms. Does that not mean, we enter the non-scientific,
non-logic realm with preestablished, religious parameters, and close a
potentially open door towards new horizons?

juttafranz: Well, Scott, then we have to live in the continuum of
eviternal religious bliss -- dominus vobiscum, et in terra pax hominibus, Amen!

iiiiriiiis: Franz, we have been discussing here whether or not
mentioning Smith and Cassirer in the current context of values, ethics
and religion, but we decided to rather trying to follow the discussion.
Please proceed all, we are enjoying all the most interesting comments
and heated debate.

jurgen784: Don´t try to understand Venezuelan society and racism form
europeans ways to behave. We are not as formal as them. Racials biggest
problems were solved with Federal War and in bed (mixting).

jutta_schmitt2002: There you coincide with Carl, Jürgen and Roldán. Carl
always emphasizes, that he is the product of "integration under the
bedsheet".

juttafranz: Students, Carl would fully agree with you, he is also an
"under the bed-sheet" metamorphosis.

jurgen784: The biggest social discrimination in Venezuela is social
class and education discrimination.

nonpositivism: Jutta, to partially embrace religious consciousness in
some form does NOT mean that one closes the door to new experience, new
thinking, new plateaus of consciousnes and understanding. Just ask Bohr
or Einstein.

carlzim: Yep, Franz .

carlzim: Kashe, Mamaliga and Chop Suey .

nonpositivism: It may be difficult for the
German-Philosophically-trained mind to accept, but here in America for
example the "contradiction" of Religious Experience and Rationality
metamorphosizes into positive synergy. Probably true in Japan, too.
Israel comes to mind. Some countries like Spain missed out on this
because they overreacted to the Renaissance.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, what is religious consciousness for you? Can
you explain further?

nonpositivism: Jutta, at some level yes, at another level, no. Sometimes
words just move us farther from its essence.

jurgen784: Samuel was born in Caracas and was raised in Barinas. I am
form Valencia.

juttafranz: Scott, we should be clear, per definitionem, what is
religion, how it really appears, how it "works", what it accomplished,
for example, the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, or concretely
burning scientists and "witches"; about this religion we are talking
here -- not the individual private property religion, or what it could
be, could have been, and what is to be saved by it; or be saved of it.
All world religions overran all other "humane, humanist forms of
religion" -- hence, we are talking about realities; and you know what
the concrete reality of "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" is --
global fascism, new wars, etc.

jutta_schmitt2002: For Jürgen and Roldán: I think discrimination in
terms of social classes and "selected" education is valid all over the
planet. It has to do with "the system" - the way society produces and
reproduces itself at given stages of the labour process, including its
divisions (according to the division of labour), social classes and
education.

nonpositivism: Jutta, for a far more complete answer than I can give
here please read=>Why Religion Matters: The Fate of the Human Spirit in
an Age of Disbelief by Huston Smith (c) 2001. He's probably my favorite
Philosopher of Religion these days. And he may change some of your
attitudes, if you're up to the intellectual and emotional challenge.
 
nonpositivism: I am not, nor does Huston Smith or others who believe
Religion has some immense value and potential benefit for humanity and
has benefitted Humanity in some ways will deny, Franz, that it has often
worked for negative ends - 300 years of Religious War in Europe come to
mind, as do countless other examples. It's a complex, double-edged
sword.

juttafranz: Scott, three scientific-philosophic "straight'" (Don Albert)
questions: Why do you need religion? Why do you defend religion? What
would happen with your life without religion?

nonpositivism: For me, Franz, Religion is necessary for Transcendental
epiphany: Completeness, Wholeness, Meaning. A uniquely personal
integration which can be partially shared with others.

juttafranz: Let's not beat around "Bush", let's get straight into the
"Bush-Fire"!

nonpositivism: I defend it because it articulates Values. At its best,
these values are a commonality of the best Human potentialities.

jutta_schmitt2002: I am convinced religion matters and keeps being of
utmost importance in the terms of my introduction above, Scott. I do not
deny its existence and its function on a socio-historical and personal
level. As far as the "human spirit" is concerned, I know it is doomed to
vanish in the eviternal cage of "the One", deducing and reducing each
and everything essential and existential to the one, sole principle, be
it god, the universe, spirit, matter or whatever - call the thing by any
other name, it will always be "the One". No problem whatsoever with the
One, no matter how you approach it, whether in logical, emotional or
religious terms. I only want to suggest, that there is more in Heaven
and on Earth than the One, something we always keep in mind and try to
approximate in our way.

iiiiriiiis: Parting from our understanding of the term "humanity" which
we discussed and clarified in the course of our chat-debates and
discussions, I entirely agree with your comment above, Scott, that
Religion has had definitely a value and not only a potential benefit for
humanity.

nonpositivism: Without religion, Life is "flatter" and lacks a certain
crucial psychological dimension of non-verbal "love" and pure
consciousness.

juttafranz: Are Science and Philosophy not sufficient? Are you yourself
not sufficient? Are your very own Acts and Thoughts, and Transcendence
in Immanence, and Immanence in Transcendence not enough? Must you go and
invent divine figures like Carl Marx, with Jahwe-Beards?

jutta_schmitt2002: Is something "pure" not something without any
relations whatsoever, Scott, something "dead"?

nonpositivism: In fact, ironically, the scientific quest for the One (as
formulated by Francis Bacon) clearly derives from the Religious impulse!
Something which makes Scientists uncomfortable, but it is a fact
nonetheless.

juttafranz: Are you so alienated, so bored with yourself, that you must
go and look for religious succour?
juttafranz: Pierre Laplace did not need that hypothesis, the man lived happily,
and even became world renowned.

jutta_schmitt2002: Why is there not a scientific (and religious) quest
for "the Two", the "Three", the "Multi"? Where is the problem?

juttafranz: Nietzsche had fun: Taking the whip with him, he flogged the
hell out of God.

nonpositivism: Franz, I would have to say that Science and Philosophy
are NOT sufficient. We can do without Music, too. Music is
"non-essential," but who would want to live without Music? Furthermore,
it's been shown that children not exposed to music suffer irreparable
cognitive impairment. Religion may be understood in a somewhat analogous
sense of value. You may for example find it much easier to
"conscientize" someone attached to the religious experience, as Martin
Luther King did here with his enormous SCLC base (Southern Christian
Leadership Conference). The Movement as a Christian moral Crusade
immensly benefitted America and the world.

jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen and Roldán: any thoughts on religion, on
religious experience from your side, please?

jurgen784: We are about to make a very common observation about faith.
Nobody can probe that God or any other divine entity exist, but nobody
can probe that it doesn`t exist; so, will bre a bizantine discution if
we do it.

juttafranz: This Meister Eckhart did centuries before, stating that the
anchor of religion, God, and Nothing are the same.

jutta_schmitt2002: God DOES exist!! It is and has been proven throughout
the ages: God has existed and keeps existing in the minds of billions of
people! Is that not proof enough?

juttafranz: If I need religion to bomb Nagasaki and Hiroshima, to bomb
the Twin Towers and Afghanistan, to roast Slaves and Jews, and even for
religious reasons, well, well, then I am beyond religious salvation and
redemption.

nonpositivism: See my remarks, above, Franz. Those who deny the
spiritual and moral basis on which the American Civil Rights movement
galvanized Christians (and some Jews and others, even atheists) to
transform the world in a very brief time speaks loudly to the power of
religiously based motivation and religious consciousness. On the flip
side:

nonpositivism: Those raised with no moral or religious conscience may be
more prone to amoral acts and acts of random violence.
nonpositivism: Unfortunately folks I will have to leave in 2 minutes,
please save me the whole transcript. If you have brief comments please
share them with me now.

jutta_schmitt2002: How do you know if you've never been an atheist or
"pagan", Scott?

juttafranz: I'm reading your remarks, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Given the sad record of religious atrocities in
history, on what kind of "morals" is an argument based, that says
atheists and pagans are prone to violence?!

juttafranz: I read your remarks, Scott. Firstly, I agree with you!

nonpositivism: I said it is a double-edged sword, Jutta. But it remains
the burden of the advanced West that would try to censor religion out of
existence to demonstrate that remaking consciousness in this mode will
improve Humanity. I strongly feel it would be the reverse. Like Lukacs
says:

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, a Venezuelan would answer: Thank God I'm an
atheist!!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: )))))))))

carlzim: Visit Marsden's God and Male at Yale (1880):
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9404/articles/marsden.html

nonpositivism: We can now be divided into those who want to live like
Creatures (literally, G-d's creations) and those who want to live like
machines (programmed). On that note, I will have to say bye for today!

carlzim: God and Man at Yale.

jutta_schmitt2002: Neither creatures nor programmed machines, Scott!

Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: I do not fit into that choice.

iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Scott, until next time!

jurgen784: Concient faith could be used as tool in order to estimulate
oursalves to keep going across dificulties. Faith doesn´t have to be
about religious issues, it also can be about our capacities. Faith as
itself is not evel, the religous institutions are evel sometimes and
manipulated others faith. Concient Faith is a powerfull tool we insist.

jutta_schmitt2002: Saying farewell to thine cloud of dust, Scott ....

juttafranz: Now, I'm sure, you will also agree with me, that all the
religions and all the prayers, and all the religious morals and
sentiments did not stop the global holocausts that we had, also not the
coming one of billions, on the contrary, Western, Christian Religion has
millions of victims in its church coffers, even aiding Hitler, and now
Bush. What would billions think about religion, if they ever would
discover its origin, and the myth of all its Gods.

jutta_schmitt2002: That sounds interesting, Jürgen and Roldán.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

iiiiriiiis: Let's get back Carl, please, Jutta or Franz...

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl!

iiiiriiiis: Welcome back, Carl!

carlzim: Thanks.

jutta_schmitt2002: He is back already.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello again Carl.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, what is "God and Man at Yale" about, please?

juttafranz: Faith can move mountains, folks, yes, mountains of gold to
Fort Knox, and, if the gold does not come to Uncle Sam, well, then, he
goes and fetches it, fetches black gold in Venezuela, irreligiously
supporting Mafias and gangsters who organize military coups against a
democratic, legitimate government.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz --- completely agreed to your remarks above! No
prayer, no religion, no God has stopped the global holocaust across the
ages, and the one that is still to come!

jutta_schmitt2002: And no prayer will stop TIPS, the new enhanced
Gestapo of the USA - not so, Carl?

juttafranz: "When shall they ever learn"? Including, Scotty!

carlzim: Religion rejects evolution theory which helps
Capitalism/Colonialism-a contradiction .

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz - don't be THAT pessimistic!  A toast to our
friend Scottie.

iiiiriiiis: *toast*

juttafranz: Well, I just like to box with Scotty -- he boxes me under
the belt now and then too!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Interesting observation, Carl. And on the other hand,
religion fosters the war frenzy in the USA these days --- tell all those
Christians that "the absolute evil" is attacking them, and you will have
them faithfully united under Bush's global anti-terrorism sword!!

juttafranz: Jutta, to tell you the truth, I'm amazed how much Scotty has
learned over the last months, and how much he taught us.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott teaches us a lot of things, even if he may not
be aware of it, and even if he sometimes is desperate about our
"intransigency".

juttafranz: Yes, Jutta, just like how there is a method in our madness,
Scott's intransigency has valid stringency!

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, would you agree that religion, Christian belief
fosters the war frenzy in the USA today?

carlzim: Islam fanaticism from ex-USA does, Jutta.

juttafranz: Scott told us that the American people is a stauch religious
nation, hence, there is no doubt that the "new wars" get religious
backing, against Arabian "absolute evil"; Religion defines, nurtures
American "infinite justice".

carlzim: After chat, listen to radio recordings of the voices of Franco,
Delores Ibarruri and Condor Legion attack in first Holy War in recent
history-Spanish Civil War (1936):
http://www.guerracivil1936.galeon.com/canciones4.htm

jutta_schmitt2002: So that is two that are doing the tango here,
involving the so-called "Christian Right" in the USA?
jutta_schmitt2002: Where do you always get these unique url's Carl? Will
check it out after the chat.

carlzim: OK. Jutta .

juttafranz: The Noble Eagle flies from the Statue of Liberty, strengthened with religious morals and sentiments, then, with good
capitalist intentions soars high into the sky, by right, to assassinate (Rumsfeld) the Arab enemy, and all this gets the Blessing of God,
and the Trust of the sinking $, the modern Titanic.

jutta_schmitt2002: Does not Supreme Court Justice Thomas Scalia base his
arguments in favour of the death penalty on Christian dogma, Carl?

jutta_schmitt2002: Is not "supreme justice" for terrorists the supreme
penalty, death? And who determines, who are the terrorists?

jutta_schmitt2002: Your neighbours, working for the TIPS?

juttafranz: Jutta, in this sense: "We shall overcome!"

juttafranz: Iris, comments? Still there?

jutta_schmitt2002: God has blessed so many atrocities commited in
history, no wonder HE cannot show HIS face anymore ...

iiiiriiiis: We are still here, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Folks, time to go and eat something. The stomach is
ringing here!

iiiiriiiis: Ringing stomach - same here!

juttafranz: Well, then give me "moral support", or do you prefer
"religious hope"?
juttafranz: Well, folks, I had fun -- must go and cook -- the whole
world is a restaurant. Which living thing will be on the table today,
Jutta?

juttafranz: Iris, enjoy your birthday! Many happy returns!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Eh. Bread and Cheese, Franz.

carlzim: Franz, I enjoyed today's chat.

jurgen784: Goodbye. It had been a nice chat. We are looking farward to
join next chats.

carlzim: Enjoy dinner .

jurgen784: By the way happy birthday to Iris.

iiiiriiiis: Friends, I'll be going to cook something nice for Stella and
me now, too, it was a pleasure to see you all again, and thank you all
for waiting for Stella and me before starting the chat. We enjoyed the
debate, thanks again to you, Jutta and Franz for an excellent
introduction! And thanks to all for most interesting comments. 
 

THE CHAT FADING OUT ..... 

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris and Stella: have a nice celebration. Carl: it
has been a great pleasure! Jürgen and Roldán: thanks for joining.

juttafranz: The poor corn, wheat and cereals, Jutta!!! The poor things
do not even have a religion, they cannot even pray, not to be devoured
by homo sapiens sapiens!!!

iiiiriiiis: Thank you, Jürgen.

jutta_schmitt2002: I will live on air and love then, Franz!

carlzim: Iris and Jurgen: Glad to see you today .

juttafranz: Samuel and Roldan, thanks for coming -- we gladly await you
next Thursday!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Good bye to all of you, Carl, Iris, Stella, Jürgen
and Roldán. Looking forward to seeing you all again.

iiiiriiiis: Jutta and Franz, we'll call you later on, within about two
hours the latest.

carlzim: Hope you'll join again soon.

juttafranz: OK, Sweeties!!!

jurgen784: Professor Franz & Jutta how can I see you before vacations in
order to give me Hegel inform report?

carlzim: Bye to all .

iiiiriiiis: See you all next week, bye bye, Carl, Jürgen, Roldán, Juttie
and Franzie.

juttafranz: Just phone us at 2666773, and we'll arrange a date!!!

jurgen784: Professor Franz & Jutta how can I see you before vacations in
order to give you mine Hegel inform report?

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

juttafranz: Folks, thanks for a heated chat, now I must get into the
heated kitchen!

juttafranz: Bye!

juttafranz: Bye All!
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