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Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference - juttafranz-22250. 

juttafranz: Scott, we are ready for your introduction, that I can imagine would be most interesting. Afterwards, I have a supplementray comment to the "sacred", and then, the floor will be open for a heated discussion. Is that OK with you both?

SCOTT'S INTRODUCTION ....

nonpositivism: Throughout the history of Human Cultures there is universally some attachment to sacred objects or beliefs, usually both. These sacraments fulfill perhaps the most basic and fundamental human need, the need for Order/Meaning/Wholeness.

nonpositivism: The sacraments can take many forms: Rituals, Dance, Deities, Objects.

jutta_schmitt2002: Please continue, Scott.

nonpositivism: Human Nature seems to have embedded in its programming this need for Transcendence and Control. When the sacrament/ritual projects a deity, it can often imbue the participant with a sense of Humility, for Forces beyond Human ken, which
can be aspired to but never grasped. This is what Einstein called the "mysterious". It is fundamental to Human existence.

juttafranz: Following ...

nonpositivism: In the advanced West, The modern Scientific Revolution transferred the deification of the Absolute and Infinite to another realm, the realm of Practical knowledge. With Darwininian Natural Selection Theory, man's self-perception and intuition for
the divine was challenged to the core.

nonpositivism: I would argue that mathematical formalisms, logic and scientific reasoning when too strong, too dominant in a culture become a religious force in their own right, as potentially harmful and destructive - maybe even more so - than any traditional religion.
I call this religion of the Advanced West "scientism". Scientism is especially dangerous because of its positivistic underpinnings which seek only practical knowledge. Emotional knowledge, intuition, religion, a sense of the divine or the beyond are not permitted in this framework.

jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent observation. Please proceed further, Scott.

juttafranz: Dramatic, Scott.

iiiiriiiis: Please continue, Scott. The attatchments to sacred objects or believes -- the attm. to the sacred object and programming like
"education" for instance might be then books, and maybe the final sacred graduation (excuse me all, I'm definitely "challenged" by the
education-rituals  ;) )

nonpositivism: Who has held onto the sense of the divine better? Who has dealt with the environment more responsibly? The Amazonian Indians with their "primitive" rain dances, Shamanic medicine men, puberty rites, marriage rituals, sense of the Forest as a
divine Presence...or the advanced technical West which eschews religion, touts progress, and holds not just the Amazon but the entire planet on the brink of ecological catastrophe?

nonpositivism: That is my introduction folks. Just to kick-start your thinking. The floor is open to all!

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Scott. Excellent introduction and food for thought and discussion!

juttafranz: When you are ready, I will give my humble contribution to this interesting intro.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, do you want to make your complementary comments now? Or shall we start discussion right away?

nonpositivism: Either way is fine by me.

juttafranz: Just be patient, I have to get my arguments straight. ....

juttafranz:
OK, Here I go!! Some parts coincide with Scott's excellent introduction, others
have some fine nuances, finesse and degrees of common differences. hence, let
the repitition not bother you.

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris - I would gladly like to assist your "graduation ritual". ;) Franz, fine with me.
 

FRANZ' COMMENTARY  ....

juttafranz:
We, the Pandemonium Crew, do not have the "sacred" or "religious" concept. However, what comes nearest to it are the emancipatory relations of our zillions of historic mensions, in other words, the mysterious 'sacred" pervades all our trialogical mensions. Of course, it has nothing to do with religious apprehensions, mysteries, fantasms, phantasmagories, souls, spirits, goblins or dwarfs, and it is also not expressed in officially sanctioned myths, culture, tradition and rituals. We respect the "sacred' of anybody, we include it in our Philosophy, but we do not believe in it, adore it, worship it, fear it.

iiiiriiiis: Thank you, Scott! Please continue, Franz... after your remarks let's proceed with the discussion. I need some moments yet to
review Scotts introduction.

nonpositivism: (I guess you don't celebrate Halloween, Franz! :))

jutta_schmitt2002: Well said, Franz.

juttafranz: Not even Xmas!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott :))

iiiiriiiis: :)))

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, go on please.

nonpositivism: I won't go Trick or Treating at your house! :))

jutta_schmitt2002: (I told you we were a godless bunch, Scott, remember?!) ;)

juttafranz:
But, let's look at the concept itself! It comes from Latin sacer (“set off, restricted”). A person or thing is sacred when (s)he or it is unique or extraordinary. Well, I feel "sacred" indeed. Closely related to sacer is numen (“mysterious power, god”). Numinous is used at present to describe the sacred, the New World Order, to indicate its megalomaniac power, before which man trembles.

jutta_schmitt2002: (But rather Christian in behaviour, indeed.)

juttafranz:
Various other terms from different traditions are correlates of sacer: Greek hagios, Hebrew qadosh, Polynesian tapu, Arabic haram; correlates of numen include the Melanesian mana, the Sioux wakanda, the old German haminja (luck), and Sanskrit Brahman.

nonpositivism: Franz, we all know you are unique and extraordinary, of course.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, you are so admirably humble :D

juttafranz: By Jove, Scott, those are sacred words!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Wow Franz. Excellent research about those terms.

juttafranz: Continuing ....

juttafranz:
Of course, we are aware of all sorts of sacred manifestations -- all focused on time, space,
heroes, ancestors, divinities, etc. -- however, we notice the very same formal-logical morality and dichotomy in these appearance forms, basically, either "A" or "Non-A", either sacred or profane. Surely, for billions, for the souls of soulless "New War" conditions, it is very important to believe in and to get into contact with whatever "sacred" entity.

nonpositivism: "By Jove", Franz? Don't tell me you've taken to Astrology, charting the Outer Planets to manage your schedule and plans....that would sound suspiciously superstitious to me! :))

juttafranz: Hahaha ... Scott!!

iiiiriiiis: Guys, I'm having my fun here!!!!!! Continueth please!

jutta_schmitt2002: The sacred, one of the connotations seems to be that, which is beyond grasp, beyond "relationability"? The distanced, the off-set?

juttafranz: Yes, Jutta.
Surely, in this "end times" global atmosphere, it is significant for thought and mind control, for ideology, that bilions of (wo)men celebrate in periodic festivals "sacred time", marking the social pattern for production, reproduction and consumption. Suddenly different seasons get different "human values"; spring -- the world re-created; harvest - protection of life forcem in seeds; cyclical time governs life across these rituals, forever, returning to the divine, to the sacred.

jutta_schmitt2002: That last part sounds rather feudal-agrarian, Franz.

nonpositivism: But Franz, what do you do in the Sunbelt like us when you don't have the 4 seasons?

juttafranz: The industrial part comes, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay.

juttafranz: Here it is Jutta:
Of course, many places and thinks get sacred values, the American Flag, the national
anthem, the constitution, the statue of liberty, the noble eagle, even the territory, America
becomes sacred, becomes the cradle of "infinite justice'. The president is in contact with
divine, sacred reality, hence, he blesses America, in the name of the divine sacred.

iiiiriiiis: Beyond relationability - most interesting remark, Jutta - maybe you could add some thought to it later on.

jutta_schmitt2002: Doubtlessly true, Franz. However I would like Scott to comment on this later - would this be part of your definition of "the sacred", too, Scott? Flag, territory, nationality, all those patriotic symbols?

juttafranz: Yes, afterwards in the discussion, Jutta & Iris, let me just continue ....

juttafranz:
Outside of America, everything is in chaos, is profane, full of terrorist dangers and demons. Across the Patria, the "sacred world" in the Mideast or elsewhere, was always coextensive with a certain territory, for example, the Garden of Eden, in Iraq; also, there were "Christian lands" all over the show. We know them: the Jewish Homeland, the Muslim World, the Hindu noble land, Aryavarta; or the Chinese "Central Kingdom".

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay proceed, Franz.

iiiiriiiis: Please do so, Franz. Most interesting topic you all suggested for todays chat, by the way!

juttafranz: Yeah!!! Iris, Scott & I are in our sacred elements!!!

iiiiriiiis: Pointing towards the "field" of what you once named the "unimaginable", remember, Franz?

juttafranz: Yes, Iris, continuing ....

juttafranz:
Of course, certain rivers, mountains, groves of trees, caves, or human constructions such as temples, shrines, or cities provide the “gate,” “ladder,” “navel,” or “pole” between heaven and earth, towards the "sacred", towards the "divine. This is all very sweet, very
adventurous, the only problem is that it is irreal, surreal.

iiiiriiiis: Go ahead unimagining, Franz, we're following...

jutta_schmitt2002: My imagination gets stuck in the circle of the halo when it comes to "the sacred" ...

nonpositivism: KEEP IN MIND Franz, Jutta, Iris: that Bush and the evangelical Christians provide some of the ideological cannonfodder for these operations, but they are executed by cynical military people who believe primarily in Engineering and
Scientism - see my definition above. Remember that for convenience (not ideological reasons) Christianity was adopted by Constantine circa 300 AC as the religion of the Roman empire.

juttafranz:
All this becomes real in the "crusades", in the "new wars", when our boys, and nowadays,
also our girls, go to Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, then we see real divine, heroic activity.
This has always been the decisive action, of course, done by "creative" and "protective"
agents. Spiritual ancenstors, of all calibres, overnight spring up like sacred mushrooms, and they disseminate the essential forces in the struggle for survival against Nature and Society.

nonpositivism: [serving a similar ideological function, I might add, that organized Catholicism played in Spain and now Latin America]

juttafranz: Agreed, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for a timely reminder, Scott. However that is the big problem with these religious notions - they have a devastating "practical" side and have been and continue being used and abused in the name of destruction.

nonpositivism: The religious impulse must however be distinguished from organized religion. This is a crucial dimension which you
have not addressed.

juttafranz: Continuing the above ....

juttafranz:
They are embodied in all sorts of things, eagles, flags, statues, animal skulls, magical skulls, or even skills, ready for kills, longevity, rebirth, furthermore, cultural, traditional, communal relations achieve social dimension through which the sacred is manifested.

juttafranz:
One of the experts of the "sacred", Ottovan der Leeuw insists that the sacred is a reality that transcends the apprehension of the sacred in symbols or rituals. Thus, our human experiences can become creative forces, and we can “become real”, gaining the most profound  understanding of ourselves. However, Kristensen and Eliade, regard the sacred reality to be available through the particular symbols or ways of apprehending the sacred.
Well, I will not waste time to explain this religious sacred-mongering. Darwinism scared the "heaven" out of the "sacred".

jutta_schmitt2002: Many important connotations of the sacred and the religious here.

juttafranz:
Bourgeois capitalist materialism replaced the "sacred" with the "profane", with gold, money, capital and profits. Their relations became the nexus between the profane "wretched of the earth" and the the sacred "chosen people". Scientology and all kinds of "Heavenly Gates" opened the "sacred" to fascist adoration and thus mysteriously destroyed all emancipatory traces in the "Information Highway'.

juttafranz: I have just two postings more, then we could go for it ....

jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Franz - the profane has become "the sacred" in bourgeois society, profit. The formerly religious sacred is kept as an relic to keep up "hope" for the wretched of the earth.

juttafranz:
The Protestant theologian Karl Barth, a hater of science and philosophy, simply argues that God's self-revelation in a particular historical form, Jesus Christ, is the place to begin any awareness of what philosophers call “ultimate.” Sociologists since Durkheim, usually
identify the sacred with social values that claim a supernatural basis.

juttafranz:
Although hroughout the past century many philosophers and social scientists have asserted the disappearance of the sacred and predicted the demise of religion, yet it seems that Spymaster Bush and the Globalization War-Mongers are forming a New Holy Alliance, thus resurrecting the "sacred' again. Surely, the "sacred" will take on new forms, new chips, new god-men and men-gods, but it will always remain the 'heart of a heartless world", the "soul of soulless conditions".

juttafranz: That was it, folks, I "hope" you enjoyed it as much as I relished Scott's intro!!!
 

THE  DEBATE ....
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks to both, Franz and Scott. Just give me a minute to pick up the threads and start commenting.

nonpositivism: Jutta, in answer to your question before about the Flag and other "National Objects", they don't really fit my definition although they do blur the line. Some Christians and others who believe in America's "manifest destiny" may consider the flag holy.
Regardless, the Supreme Court disagrees. First Amendment Protection. Any American can legally burn the American flag.

nonpositivism: America's separation of Church and State as conceived my Jefferson and implemented in Va. and then USA Bill of Rights is perhaps America's greatest and most radical progressive gift to Humanity.

juttafranz: But, Scott, they constitutionally burn for what the American Flag blows in the anti-terrorist global winds.

nonpositivism: The 1st. Amendment from 1789 is still far ahead of its time, ironically even ahead of where most Americans are thinking today.

nonpositivism: Iris lost in cyberspace...........

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I actually did assume that the patriotic symbols did not fit into your own definition of "the sacred". As for a historical approach towards that concept, most probably, "the sacred" has two faces, one being related to ignorance facing the
"secrets" of nature and society itself, minting in religion, and the other one to "cognitive factors lost" during the course of history. ---
Another factor lost: Iris!

jutta_schmitt2002: Let's try to get her back.

nonpositivism: OK.

juttafranz: Let's await the Return of the Saintess!!!

juttafranz: Let the Popess continue ....

jutta_schmitt2002: Hm. Perhaps Iris' colleague has to make use of the telephone - they only have one line for Telephone / Internet activities.

juttafranz: OK, Jutta, continue with your argument .....

nonpositivism: All quiet on the Southern Front.

juttafranz: Scott, what you said above is interesting indeed, could you please elaborate your understanding of the mysterious and its real human value: "This is what Einstein called the "mysterious". It is fundamental to Human existence."

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - a question inbetween concerning the separation of Church and State in USA. Recently, complaints have been heard about growing public financing of religious educational institutions in the US, which brings Church and State closer
together again. Did you hear about that?

nonpositivism: Yes, first Iris is back, someone should invite her.

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris is back.

jutta_schmitt2002: It says she's not available.

nonpositivism: I will try.

jutta_schmitt2002: OK:

Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Stay onboard, Iris!

juttafranz: For you, Iris: Scott, what you said above is interesting indeed, could you please elaborate your understanding of the mysterious and its real human value: "This is what Einstein called the "mysterious". It is fundamental to Human existence."

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris has joined the conference - six times!

iiiiriiiis: Back, sorry all. I was booted off - only one line here.

iiiiriiiis: Please let's continue.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Iris.

nonpositivism: Franz, I wish I could explain it. It can best be explained by going into yourself. Surely you can remember those unique moments in your life when everything came together for you, made sense in some profound way. It is a non-verbal feeling of
wholeness.

juttafranz: Is it so "mysterious" that you can't explain it?

nonpositivism: Yes, that is EXACTLY the point. It cannot be approached through words, through intellect, through mathematics, through logic. It transcends them, is higher and deeper than those. Irreducible.

juttafranz: Well, meeting Jutta was "mysterious" indeed -- the ways of the Lord are mysterious -- today still Jutta is a "mystery" to me!!!

juttafranz: You mean such things, Scott?

nonpositivism: Heed Einstein again: "The deepest sensation we can experience is that of the mysterious. He who cannot experience it is as good as dead".

juttafranz: Through what did I approach Jutta? Surely, notwith "mystery"? My intentions were not "mysterious" in any way!!

juttafranz: Wait, Jutta's remarks don't appear!!

nonpositivism: "The mysterious....is the cradle of Man's greatest Artistic, Religious and Scientific impulses....In that sense, I am a deeply religious man [although a self-professed 'non-practicing' Jew]".

juttafranz: She'll post them again. Yahoo is a sabotage!!!

iiiiriiiis: Same here, Jutta's remarks are not on my screen, Scott and Franz, but I do read you both.

juttafranz: Jutta starts Yahoo again. I'll invite her back, and she will post her remarks about the mysterious again!

iiiiriiiis: Scott and Franz, please do make sure to save the script, I have only a part of it.

nonpositivism: What we individually or collectively hold Sacred is really a testament to our deepest drives, our identities, what we live for. The Sacred is about Values, substantially Emotive values which cannot be quantified and defy logical analysis. They are higher
than any science or formal analysis can carry us. About this though the advanced pseudo-atheistic West is bewildered, still does not know how to assimilate.

Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.

juttafranz: OK, Jutta, repost, please!!

nonpositivism: For more I urgently recommend Why Religion Matters, by Huston Smith (c) 2001. It will give you critical glimpses into religious sensibilities - all religions, all over the globe - to which you have not yet been exposed.

jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps my presence is too profane for such a sacred chat, guys.

nonpositivism: Jutta, the sense of humor is Sacred.

jutta_schmitt2002: jutta_schmitt2002: If I got it right, Scott referred to the "feeling" of humility in the face of "forces", that lie beyond human knowledge and grasp - named "the mysterious" by Einstein. Perhaps this falls into the realm of what I have described as the
"ignorance side" of the sacred, having to do with "the secrets" of nature (and society), like relations that cannot be understood and grasped for certain reasons.

jutta_schmitt2002: The German philosopher Immanuel Kant happens to come to my mind right now. Perhaps, he would define "the sacred" as "Erhabenheit" --- die Übereinstimmung des moralischen Gesetzes in mir mit dem bestirnten Himmel über mir! --- will translate that right now.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello??????

jutta_schmitt2002: Lost in cyberspace! Where art thou, my fellow knights

nonpositivism: Kant was a genius. But Hume is really the grandfather of modern positivistic thought which denies religious sensibility.
Philosopher's refer to Hume's fork:

nonpositivism: "The mysterious....is the cradle of Man's greatest Artistic, Religious and Scientific impulses....In that sense, I am a deeply religious man [although a self-professed 'non-practicing' Jew]".

nonpositivism: Hume's Fork: "Does the remark refer at all to matters of fact, or number? If not, consign it to the flames. It cannot contain anything but sophistry and illusion" - David Hume, Enquiry into Human Understanding.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, give me a minute here please. Looking for a concept in the dictionnary.

juttafranz: Scott, is the following not German, not fascist "Ordnung", not ideology for the masses?: "Throughout the history of Human Cultures there is universally some attachment to sacred objects or beliefs, usually both. These sacraments fulfill perhaps the most basic and fundamental human need, the need for Order/Meaning/Wholeness."

nonpositivism: In other words, the modern West (that includes you in Venezuela, yes) is considered with the measurable, the quantifiable, the "logical". When elevated to 100% dominance in perception, seeking to eliminate the sacred, it is probably more
profane than any religion has ever attempted. A good example is the anti-religious Fascism and militarism, the pure genocidal totalitarianism of Hitler's Naziism which expunged spiritual values (and those who were though to "carry" them into the West, the
Jews). Logic without Values (supported by a sense of the Sacred) tilts to a negative hell.

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. Kant would probably define "the sacred" according to his famous phrase: "Sublimity is the concurrence of
the moral law inside me and the starry sky above me". (-- It does not sound so magnificent in English than it does in German, does it, Iris?  )

juttafranz: In fact, all world orders, the New World Order, survive on this sacred "human desire".

iiiiriiiis: Most interesting, Jutta, Scott, and Franz, however, I guess the direction towards which Scotts and Franz introductory remarks are strongly pointing to lies yet, so to say, still "beyond" morals and values, which are exactly based on and derived from the
formal-logical dualism between "good" and "bad", or A and Non-A as Franz mentioned earlier.

juttafranz: "Sacred" and "Profane". Iris!

nonpositivism: Iris, Franz's remarks are in that vein. Mine are not. I argue the reverse. Values are Higher than any formal Relations.

iiiiriiiis: Your translation is excellent, Jutta, but I agree, it does indeed not transmit the "power" of Kants expression in German...

iiiiriiiis: Excuse me, Franz -- I didn't.

iiiiriiiis: I didn't get your point?

nonpositivism: Think about it for a moment, Franz. WHY do you value A-Non-A type analysis above all others? It deeply reflects your identity, your core values even if you do not acknowledge it. At some emotional level, you have bought into this framework of
dialectic and argumentation. It works for you emotionally - and intellectually of course. But it does not work for others whose value system is from a different dimension, causing them to reject your intellectual framework.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, monotheistic religion and scientism both have destroyed what I have called the other side of "the sacred" earlier in the chat, that is, the side of "cognitive factors gone lost" in history, like PSI factors, like sort of a kind of "direct" relations not
only towards nature but from brain to brain ("connectedness", in your terms).

nonpositivism: I understand your point, Jutta although I don't agree with it.

juttafranz: That's my argument, Iris. The truth goes the other way, "history" has proven it zillions of times, and America's New War proves it to the hilt. Rather homo homini lupus has a deep sacred desire for the profane. Imagine how many innocent Iraqi children
are now already sentenced to death, Bush says that it is just a matter of time, he'll come to get them. This is American sacredness, the sacrament of infinite justice. Carl would have called this kind of the "sacred': Bullscheisse!!

nonpositivism: Franz, what about Hitler's irreligious example, seeking to purge Jewish and Christian spiritual values from the entire planet? How do you deal with that?

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, that is the charming thing about you: I would be VERY worried, if you started agreeing with me! :))))

juttafranz: Worse even, to make soap out of Jewish fat, and lamp-shades, coining their golden teetch, and sending the bars to Switzerland, and the sacred Roman Catholic Church in Bavaria blessed all these. No, guys, sacred, my foot -- all is profane,
profaning the very face of Mother Earth.

jutta_schmitt2002: German Nazism incorporated and redirected religious patterns in a horrific way, Scott - the sado-masochistic master-slave relations, intrinsic in monotheistic religion, were brought out in the most outspoken, horrible manner conceivable. The
mass psychology of fascism was based on this kind of internalization and redirection of religious patterns towards a mundane "authority".

jutta_schmitt2002: If you like, Scott and friends, I could take this up as our next chat topic and elaborate a little further.
 

FADING OUT ....
 

iiiiriiiis: Please do so, Jutta!!

juttafranz: Excellent, Jutta. Perhaps you could introduce Reich's famous book on the topic!

jutta_schmitt2002: However, let us get back to the concept of "the sacred" once more, because I still think there may be a "dimension" of it that has to do with our own concept of emancipation.

nonpositivism: I would underscore that The Nazis may have welcomed some complicity or apathy from the Catholic Church but it's important to understand their movement was all about stamping out the sacred. What mattered was the State.

nonpositivism: The Russian Totalitarians operated somewhat similarly - as witnessed by their attempt to formally suppress all religion. Why do you think they did that?

juttafranz: Iris, let Stella check that all postings are in the final manuscript. All send their manuscripts to Stella, then she could check the fragments. Many a remark gets lost, and some are devoured by the Yahoo-Moloch -- and then Scotty may think that the
censorship or copyright authorities were here.

iiiiriiiis: Okay, Franz. Just let me save what I have, be right back.

nonpositivism: This time folks, I have the complete transcript to cross-check. Big Brother is watching you.

juttafranz: Scott, send yours to Stella too -- also you, Jutta.

iiiiriiiis: Excellent, Scott.

juttafranz: Mmmm ....

jutta_schmitt2002: There is one crucial factor I have to underline with regard to your last two observations, Scott: there must be a given, "emotive" basis in order for fascism and totalitarianism of all kinds to work, and this emotive basis is the same as the one that
underlies monotheistic religion. God, the state, authority, the party, the cause, the revolution --- all are substitutes for "the sacred", and all operate in a blindfolding way - people uncritically "merge" into some kind of "One", loosing their own criteria for judgement, loosing their famous "individuality".

nonpositivism: Furthermore, why have the 2 most notorious totalitarian regimes in history, responsible for the wanton slaughter and imprisonment of tens of millions, be so "religiously devoted" to eliminating religion in the name of the State ("National Socialism" or "Communism")? Is it merely a coincidence?

jutta_schmitt2002: Religion - the emotive basis of it - was NOT eliminated, Scott. Only the appearance. Religious feelings were redirected successfully to worship the state, the party, the cause, etc.

juttafranz: You forgot the third one, Scott, right under your nose: See you later, alligator; just a while, crocodile!!!

nonpositivism: Jutta, your argument about "sublimating" sacred impulses does not hold up although it may make for good Ph.d. thesis. There is no evidence for this.

juttafranz: What do you understand by"evidence",Scott?

juttafranz: How does one measure "sacred" evidence?

nonpositivism: In fact, look at how the superficially polytheistic Romans were quite comfortable with a totally military Empire and Philosophy, ruling the world and subjugating other cultures for centuries. That's just one hole (a big one) in your suggestion about
"monotheistic countertransference".

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, please explain to me, where is the essential difference in slaughtering millions of people across the ages, either in the name of God or in the name of a State or any authority?!

nonpositivism: Systematic annihilation in the gas chambers based on theories of Racial supremacy and purging anachronistic religious and spiritual "cancers" are indeed very different - in means and ends - from conflicts derived from other motivations.

nonpositivism: Not all war is the same. Not all conflict is the same, quantitatively or qualitatively.

nonpositivism: And it's dangerous to reduce the perversions of anti-religious Totalitarianism as simply coopted and redirected monotheism.

juttafranz: Well, Jutta, we have to update, upgrade the Holy Bible, to the New War Testament, and, for sure, the Talmud too -- they don't reach the monotheistic realms of Wilhelm Reich and Globalization. Hence the ontic degree to grasp what you say is not
up-dated, cannot fathom post-capitalist, galactic domains.

jutta_schmitt2002: Is not religion based on the concepts of good and bad, on the concept of the chosen people, on the concept of white supremacy (show me a black Jesus Christ on any of the billions of crosses on this planet), on the concept of the inferiority and
obedience of the female with regard to the male?! Was all this not gladly taken up by "mundane" authorities, were not social hierarchies established according to this pattern?!

nonpositivism: Folks, sorry but I must take a break. I will be back shortly if you are still around to reply...or we can continue the discussion in post-Conference email or messaging.

nonpositivism: Happy Halloween!

jutta_schmitt2002: I'm sorry to see you leave, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hope you read my last remark though.

jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry, I "hope" you read my last remark.

juttafranz: The same applies to the Koran too -- look with what the Mideast is occupying itself, and others, still with the obsolete "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" -- and Bush does the very same still, this is called "world peace" nowadays.

juttafranz: Well, folks, it is time to say our evening prayers, look towards Mecca, get your "sacred" Holy Scriptures, and let's pray!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: My suggestion: let us dedicate a chat to the role of religion, religious patterns / feelings with regard to the successfull functioning of fascism / totalitarianism. I will glady give us an introduction.

jutta_schmitt2002: Omega, er.. amen. 

SAYING  BYE !!!

juttafranz: We'll meet again next week, that is, if the USA does not come to get us!!

jutta_schmitt2002: For I have cometh to bring the sword, my fellow knights, and bringeth the fire - how I wisheth it burneth already!!!

juttafranz: Also this Reich explains, Jutta, this xenophobia, bogey-man, 4th July UFO mentality.

iiiiriiiis: Jutta, Franz and Scott, agreed. Let's continue next time here, I'll be taking my laptop with me and if I don't have to work at night I'll see you all in our next Thursday's chat.

juttafranz: Bye! I'll send the manuscript off to you all.

juttafranz: Send yours to Stella!

iiiiriiiis: Okay, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: So friends - let us come to an end for today. I have to fetch the car from the garage and see, if Cheo has managed
to convert it into an ultrasonic flying device.

juttafranz: Bye!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye.

juttafranz: Mine should be complete too.

jutta_schmitt2002: you guys are fast.

juttafranz: Bye! Jutta!!!

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