SEE CHAT BELOW!

      PLEASE NOTE:

         Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
         Greetings,  it would take hours and hours to edit this
         particularmanuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
         "time" to correct everything!

        Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
        the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
        cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
        are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 To visit our Home Pages:

http://www.franzjutta.com

http://www.franzjutta.org

http://www.franz-lee.org

http://www.geocities.com/juschmi/index.html

http://www.pandemonium2.homestead.com/index.html

http://www.transhistory.homestead.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/frogmobile/index.html

http://forums.delphi.com/exiles2001/start
 

 To write to us:
     franzjutta@cantv.net

 To read our Previous Chats:
 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8545/chats.html

 To read our Publications Online:
 http://www.geocities.com/juttafranz/publications00001.html
 http://www.geocities.com/juschmi/publications00012.html

 To read our Scientific Material & Documents:
 http://www.transhistory.homestead.com/Our_Philosophy.html
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Folks, Visitors & Guests!

 In future, until further notice, regularly on Wednesdays,
sometimes, even on Sundays, we will have all chats regularly
on Yahoo.

Kindly download and install the latest  Yahoo Messenger and
by e-mail, franzjutta@cantv.net , please, give us your
"Buddy Name".
 ************************************************************

SAYING: HI!

juttafranz: Hi! Just awaiting Carl!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello everybody.
juttafranz: Does anybody see Carl anywhere in Cyberspace?
missnaranjahit: Hi Jutta, Hi Franz.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl is messaging me.
juttafranz: Hi! Carl!
jutta_schmitt2002: Here he is.
missnaranjahit: I don't see Carl - there he is, Hi Carl!
jutta_schmitt2002: Where is Scott?
juttafranz: Did Scott leave again?
carlzim: Hi, all.
carlzim: Am I listed online?
juttafranz: Yes!!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has declined to join and sent: Thanks, but no thanks.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott says he cannot attend right now and asks for a few minutes of patience.
juttafranz: OK! How many minutes?
jutta_schmitt2002: Meanwhile, hello to Carl and Stella.
jutta_schmitt2002: Seems he has some business to attend, Franz. I told him to advise us when he is ready for a reinvite.
juttafranz: 11, 13 or 666?
jutta_schmitt2002: any of these
carlzim: Hi Franz, Jutta, Stella.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, it's nice to see you again. Stella, what happened to Iris? Did she get a new account already?
juttafranz: When you are all ready, I will begin: give me a signal!
carlzim: 9/11 Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Let's wait just a few minutes more, Franz. A proper bet, Carl.
missnaranjahit: No Jutta, she will be without any account until she is back in Freiburg.
carlzim: Proceed, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: When will Iris be back in freiburg, Stella?
juttafranz: OK, then I will proceed, before Yahoo sends us to Never Land!
missnaranjahit: She has to work until Monday 19th, maybe she will visit me on her way back to Freiburg, so she will be there on Friday 23th.
 

THE INTRODUCTION BEGINS .....

juttafranz:
Firstly, let me post parts of a chat that I had with Scott this morning that concern our chat today!
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. Let's save the transcript everybody so Scott can read back all of the introduction.

juttafranz: So, Scott will be here, and not here!!!

missnaranjahit: Ok Franz - cool.

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Stella. - Scott is in neither here nor there mode, Franz.

juttafranz:
"nonpositivism: OK, Franzie. By the way, even many Americans are angry with
Bush's shortsightedness on Energy and Middle East policy. Many (including
Policy and intellectual elites and dissenters) grasp that oil dependency is
causing severe, severe distortions in Foreign and Domestic Policy.

juttafranz:
juttafranz: Anger is part of the pan et circenses; part of global infowar; the more
angry, the more emotional, fanatic, the masses are, the easier to control, guide
them towards fascism. Besides, Bush, or any other "world leader", is just a
scapegoat, strategically towards whom anger is directed; so that one cannot
see the forest, just this single tree, against which all the social wrath is
directed; in other words, it is excellent mind control; valid and applicable to the
"friend" and to "foe", read your Shakespeare -- a millennia-old tactic and
strategy!! Now you know why "Franzie" is always to be blamed!!
 

juttafranz: Any comments?

jutta_schmitt2002: Well, somehow the "visible" persons, the so called
"men that make history" (supposedly), are meant to be in the public spotlight
for mind control reasons exactly, Franz. Bush and his government, nevermind
the corporate scandals that have come to the public light, will always be seen
as that famous entity - "our government", that acts on behalf of "us Americans"
and not on behalf of the postindustrial military complex, as is actually the case.

juttafranz: Excellent comment, Jutta. Continuing with my chat with Scott ....
juttafranz: nonpositivism: haha. I like your reasoning and humour. But your analysis is a
bit simplistic. Yes, some of the media discussions of dissent "set the limits of
the debate" and serve to do remote crowd control, but there are also genuine
cracks in the consensus and rumblings which can shake up the Elephant.
juttafranz: juttafranz: Scott, "Genuine cracks in the consensus" -- true! But not expressed as
individuals, as individual or group wrath, as individual trees, rather the whole
"bush" on fire, the real "bush fire"; there the law of the jungle reigns, and no
protest, no anger, ever had stopped it across the centuries. Which anger
stopped African Slavery? Colonization of the Globe? Witch-Hunting? Racism?
World War I and II? The Holocaust? The Mideast Conflict? Stalin's fascism?
Bombing the Twin Towers? The Afghan Massacre? The Rwanda Massacre? The
"New War"?

Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Scott. Good to finally see you.

juttafranz: The chat with Scott continues ....

missnaranjahit: Hi Scott.

carlzim: Hi, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Will you stay?

juttafranz:
nonpositivism: I seem to recall we did fight one of the bloodiest wars in
history, right here on American soil about 135 years ago to eliminate Slavery
from this nation. Millions agitated, war was inevitable although the result was
not.
juttafranz: Only, later to launch the bloodiest one of them all -- the American
"New War"!"

nonpositivism: Hi, Pandemonium Crew. Please continue your discussion/introduction.

nonpositivism: Especially since I co-wrote it, haha.

juttafranz: You were here and not here, Scott.

juttafranz: I was posting our chat of this morning first!!

nonpositivism: Yes, I will be here for at least 1 hour, if Yahoo Servers remain stable.

jutta_schmitt2002: We have had a fair share of your comments already, Scott.
You were there and not there at the same time!

juttafranz:
And what is behind global anger and wrath? How does it function?
It's very simple how fascist ideology functions, how "newspeak" moulds
"public opinion", how it directs "human anger", away from the real global
issues at stake. What do the masses know about "world affairs"? Well, that
what formed them, deformed them, informed them. That's their general view,
world view.

jutta_schmitt2002: You're getting so dialectical these days - I must say I'm proud of you.

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

juttafranz:
You first build up a certain enemy image or picture; you depict it as the
"absolute evil", you paint another picture, you baptize it as "infinite justice".
You make sure that globally billions understand these, you overflood your mass
media, newspapers, news reels and radio reports with these "facts".
When you are sure that the general public -- excluding the few thousands that
cannot be brain-drilled -- has swallowed all bait, hook, sinker and shark, then
you begin your operation "Desert Storm" or "Noble Eagle".

nonpositivism: Franz, you forgot about Infinite Justice.

jutta_schmitt2002: Forgot the one, DECISIVE point Franz: You have to have
people IDENTIFY themselves with "the good guys" firstly, else it does not work.

juttafranz:
Not really, Scott. And, look: nearly 100 percent success; the whole world believe in everything.
The Twin Towers gone, the Pentagon damaged! You tell the world who did it! A
= A, nobody else ever could have done it!! The "culprit" is so shocked; simply
because he knows that he did not do it, or did not do it alone. Never mind the
ulterior motives, Satan tells the world that he did not do it, at least, not alone.
also not his "Arab cult". The One and Only, Jutta.

juttafranz: Continuing ....
juttafranz:
Nobody believes him; simply, because everybody, even the most intelligent of
all, including the "cracks in the consensus", already knows who did it! They
identify Satan as a liar! However, Eve could verify that he told her the precise
truth. OK, satan is a liar! He really did it, he can never tell the truth, simply
because he is Non-A, Satan!

juttafranz:
Later, miraculous "tapes" reveal that Satan did it, that the liar is an
international "terrorist". Asked again, if he did it, with bravour, he replies:
"Yes, I did it". Yeah!! the whole world happy and gay! We were right, you see,
Satan confirmed everything; he is no liar!! Suddenly the "Zelig" syndrome in
the Woody Allen film grasps the fascist imagination of billions, Satan is a hero,
he tells the truth!! Now, we are going to get him!! A "New War"!!!! Before Hitler
took power, in the German elections, exactly this happened; within 9 months,
the German voters swung from ultra-left to ultra-right!!

carlzim: Brainwashing worldwide that "tools" once used no longer exist.

juttafranz:
Beyond doubt, for a while some individuals, some peoples could decelerate the
forward march of global economic exploitation, of political domination, of social
discrimination, of fascist dehumanization, tortures and holocausts, but no force
on earth, in heaven, in hell, could halt the inexorable historical process that
brought us to the current global fascist situation, headed by the militarily
omnipotent, megalomaniac USA and war-mongering NATO!

nonpositivism: Franz, no dispute on German mini-history there. Especially in
desperate times with a de-classed population, this kind of stuff happens.

carlzim: The JFK assassination web. George De Mohrenschilt, Oswald's
benefactor in Texas, was a member of the "National Alliance of Russian
Solidarists (Narodno Trudovoi Soyuz; NTS)." NTS was the most powerful
anti-Soviet underground movement post WW2 with HQ in West Germany.
It may have influenced the development of "Solidarity" in Poland. Today,
no one in the Russian and East European forums acknowledges NTS. Why? Carl

http://www.davidicke.net/tellthetruth/coverups/bronfmanbush.html

nonpositivism: Even the great glorious democratic Athens decayed into
Mob Rule during the Spartan War, amidst the suffering and the plague.

juttafranz: We are agreeing, Scott?? Something 'wrong" with me!!!

juttafranz:
In, within this productive, labour system, within this systemic, systematic
decay, there is nothing -- in this case, absolutely nothing -- to do, to think, to
excel anymore. Anywhere, anywhen, anyhow else, we have zillions of spheres
to "gain", and to lose all our corporeal, mental and transcendental religious
chains. Only in this case, "cracks in the consensus" can have any real, true,
transhistoric, transcreative, emancipatory value!

nonpositivism: Franz, as long as we agree to disagree about at least 90%, we're OK!

juttafranz: Now, we surely are going to disagree!!

juttafranz:
What happened to the emancipatory fruits of all the anti-colonial wars, of
independence, of the liberation movements? What happened to the Russian,
Chinese, Yugoslavian, Vietnam, Chilean, American and South African
Revolutions? What did all the strikes, demonstrations, military coups bring?
Democracy, World Peace, Freedom? For whom? I'll tell you what: Current
Global Euro-American Metropolitan Fascism!! The alienating labour process, the
labour alienation could not be stopped for millennia, how, why and when will
we now suddenly perform this "miracle"?

carlzim: I knew NTS Russian immigrants at CUNY in 1950's. What happened to them?

juttafranz: Interesting, Carl.

juttafranz:
If we study conscientiously and consciously the "history" of the Patria, we will
discover that the labouring, working "speaking-tools", have a specific "historic"
task, namely to work, to labour, to toil. Never ever they were really given other
social functions, for example, to make political decisions, this is always
reserved for the State, or to realize economic demands, this is exclusively the
task of the wealthy, of the bosses, employers, capitalists and moguls. What
they were and still are: slaves, serfs, witches, lumpen, wretched, condemned,
miserables, wage-slaves, cannon fodder, circus animals, guinea-pigs,
fire-wood, material for candles, lamp-shades, ....

carlzim: Note Illuminati in perspective from a forum:
"Somehow all conspiracies of the 20th century. are tied together, its true  It all begins
with the Illuminati, in
the 18th century, who took Europe out of the warring age of the Reformation and
counter-Reformation and
into the "Lazy Fare" era LOL of Enlightenment and Revolutions. Good bye feuding
city state Barons,
hello international bankers and international conflicts, like the French Revolution,
the War of 1812 the
Napoleonic Wars, the 1848-9 Revolutions etc."

juttafranz:
Who cannot see what billions are and have been, we cannot help anymore. In
any case, this is not our historic task. Folks, I leave it to you, to answer the
epicentral questions above. That's all for today! You have the act a n d the
word now.

THE DEBATE COMMENCES .....
 

carlzim: Franz, thanks for the introduction. Note Illuminati in perspective from a forum:
"Somehow all conspiracies of the 20th century. are tied together, its true  It all begins with the Illuminati, in
the 18th century, who took Europe out of the warring age of the Reformation and counter-Reformation and
into the "Lazy Fare" era LOL of Enlightenment and Revolutions. Good bye feuding city state Barons,
hello international bankers and international conflicts, like the French Revolution, the War of 1812 the
Napoleonic Wars, the 1848-9 Revolutions etc."

nonpositivism: Good intro, Franz. However, beware of categorizing all as equally failed.
There are undeniable qualitative and quantitative differences between 2 evils, such as
pre-apartheid and post-apartheid South Africa. these cannot be trivialized.

nonpositivism: Would you rather have Chavez or Batista in Venezuela right now, etc.?

juttafranz: Thanks, Scott, what quintessential did not fail against exploitation,
domination, discrimination and alienation? Human Love?

nonpositivism: Franz, forgive me but I do not understand your question.

jutta_schmitt2002: I think the central problem here is, that "the wretched of the earth"
are being "educated" from the point go to be slaves, "swallowers of the facts", "positivists",
"fatalists". They are not able to think and act for themselves - neither with regard to their
"objective" position in the labour process (they sell their work force), nor with regard to
their "subjective" position (their corresponding, passive-receiving "consciousness").

juttafranz: That which did not fail, could stop this current global fascism.
In your opinion what still did not fail? Where is there still Hope?

nonpositivism: Which would you rather be, an African-American
Slave in British Colonial 1750 or a free African-American in the year 2002,
entitled to Equality and Due Process under law? Why don't you ask American
Blacks if they were more exploited then or now?

carlzim: Good point, Jutta. Mind control.

juttafranz: None of them!!!

carlzim: After chat, note Lee Harvey Oswald's simplified, intelligent,
straightforward writing style Obviously, he wasn't a nut case.
Was Oswald's Dyslexia due to MKULTRA mind control?
_____________________________________________
http://www.madbbs.com/~tracy/lho/diary.htm
Historic Diary

By Lee Harvey Oswald

Edited By W. Tracy Parnell and Carol Lindell

juttafranz: I would not even like to be Croesus B.C or Bill Gates A.D.!!!

juttafranz: I just want to be me!

jutta_schmitt2002: Worse even, I suspect most of all those wretched
of the earth, whom we like to defend so fiercly, actually did and do affirm
their status quo and would probably not agree with us, when we suggested
they were exploited, oppressed, discriminated, etc. Many work perfectly into
the hands of their own situation.

carlzim: Scott, IMHO the core issue is we're all subject to mind control-White,
Black, Tan, Yellow, etc.

nonpositivism: Franz, your answer is not an answer but an evasion.
No American Black wants to return to Slavery. American race relations
are better now than they have EVER been. IN fact, we are rapidly creating
the most multicultural nation in History, blurring the boundaries between
"races" and ethnicities. In fact, just touring California or NY or Florida will
demonstrate this abundantly. Visionaries like Ward Connerly want to drop
the "race" classification from govt. and college admission forms entirely.
Don't tell me the antebellum South was just as good for American Blacks.
nonpositivism: Such an answer is an insult to the tens of millions who died
and suffered in the Middle Passage and here in the New World.

juttafranz: Scott, I am quite satisfied with myself. I know myself. And this is
quite a lot; many cannot say this. The Oracle of Delphi and Hegel wrecked their
brains about this simple issue!
 

nonpositivism: Franz, unfortunately you are talking in circular riddles now.

juttafranz: That's dialectics, Scott.

nonpositivism: That's what happens when too much philosophy loses touch
with facts on the ground.

nonpositivism: Even the Greeks who invented Rhetoric and Dialectic
knew it was an art form that could apply only with very severe limitations.

juttafranz: Yes, Scott, you are "right", "facts", like in positivism, exist apart from
philosophy.

jutta_schmitt2002: People, especially in times of "crisis" (economic, political, social)
tend to conceive their situation as a kind of "fate": It is simply "fate", that wars occur
or stand on the horizon, it is "the human condition", it is some "higher force" out of
their reach, that makes history and drags them along for "better" or for "worse". The
course of history is even seen as determined by unalterable "natural laws" (or in its
religious form, the "mysterious ways of the lord"). This is, how people uncritically
submit under any kind of authority.

juttafranz: I am a positivist!!!

juttafranz: You are a nonpositivist!!

nonpositivism: Jutta, you tell that to the millions of Blacks
who rebelled against their "fate", who resisted their "fate" in
colonial Nations, etc. these kinds of generalizations have no relation to historic reality.

juttafranz: That's the authoritarian personality described by Horkheimer and
Adorno in their theories concerning nazism and fascism.

juttafranz: But, Jutta, please continue ....

juttafranz: Reich and Fromm also explained this mass psychosis of fascism.

nonpositivism: What about Churchill and the British who refused to make a
deal with Hitler and subjugate themselves to the Nazi juggernaut? Who fought
alone against their "fate" of Nazi domination?

juttafranz: Scott, since when theory is a "generalization"?

carlzim: Scott, these alternative information sites paint a different picture.
I'm asking all to visit these after chat:
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/cocaccc.html
http://educate-yourself.org/radiantenergystory.html
http://educate-yourself.org/mcindex.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/14/214727.shtml
http://www.ists.dartmouth.edu/

nonpositivism: These facts I am pointing out, Jutta, negate the passive view of
historical "fate" you consign people to.

juttafranz: Kindly differentiate between theory that accompasses all manifestations
and inter-relate them, and generalizations like: "everything is relative", "everything
is possible" -- these are empty ideological generalizations.

nonpositivism: People over the millennia have realized they are active participants
in their own history, in varying degrees. Even with influence of religions that
sometimes tell them their control is limited or non-existent. The human spirit resists
passivity, as records of resistance to Slavery, inhumane Working conditions, Union
Movements, Civil Rights movements, amply demonstrate.

nonpositivism: In fact, religion can often catalyze action and rebellion. The other side
of the coin which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.

juttafranz: Did you know Scott that a "fact" never changes, it has absolute truth;
if it would change, then, it will not be a fact anymore. so, you want to be a Walking
Facts Encyclopaedia?

juttafranz: That's positivism to the core!!

carlzim: Scott, Churchill defended British tradition vs. Hitler's radicalism in 1940.
Preservation of the sovereign State was a key issue then, not today.

carlzim: Tradition is also no longer a key issue.

juttafranz: Stelllaaa!!! Still there???

nonpositivism: Let's deal with the Slavery issue, Franz. It is bizarre to even suggest
the equivalence in African status on the North American continent between 1750 and
2002. But you seem to want to subsume it all under the inevitable tide of Global Fascism.
Whose fascism? Are the American Blacks in power today, descendants of Slaves and
exploited peoples - like Colin Powell - now merely "Fascist tools". Willing or unwilling?
And regardless, is their situation just as bad now as it was when they were bought and
sold (and killed if need be) as property.

jutta_schmitt2002: There are many factors that combine both in affirming a given
status quo as well as in negating it, Scott. The overall socio-historic development
incides on the individual perception, thought and behaviour. It is both, socio-historic
reality that has to approximate thought and action, and thought and action that have
to approximate socio-historic reality. Not at any given time in history does rebellion
stand on the order of the day, and not at any given time in history does fascism
stand on the order of the day.

missnaranjahit: Still there.

juttafranz: Stella, would you like to be a Brockhaus? After all, you study "Book Science"?

nonpositivism: Beneath that dialectical gibberish, Jutta is at least one reasonable
admission - that there are many many complex subtle nuances in Human Action:
Rebellion, Introspection, Submission, Creative Dialogue, Survival mechanisms, etc.
Reductionism to 1 or the dominance of 1 (Passivity=>Fascism) is so far removed from
historical reality it cannot be taken seriously.

carlzim: Torture is no longer a key issue. Revelation of the French military's
use of torture to interrogate captured prisoners of war during the
French-Algerian War (1954-1962) was a major factor in France's loss of
that war. The French public thought it might lead to Fascism in
mainland France, and a poor image of France in the developing global
economy.

After chat, visit:
http://www.indyflicks.com/danielle/Papers/paper06.htm
Decolonization and French Society.

juttafranz: Scott, you surely do not use "dialectical gibberish", what logic do you
use in the above statements? It's important, else i could misunderstand you.
Identify your method of thinking and thought, please. Mine is clear: it's trialogical.

carlzim: Who cares about use of torture today?

carlzim: or about, e.g., the bombings in Columbia?

juttafranz: It's a "fact", Carl. Nobody cares, but there's still "hope": we do care.

carlzim: Good point, Jutta.

nonpositivism: The problem with your analysis, Franz is that it's overly [x]Logical.
Too much logic can collapse in on itself until it's practical meaning/utility vanishes.
That is the danger you risk by not addressing the relative good and evil of various
regimes and conflicts throughout history. By subsuming them into some kind of
inevitable Whole, you crush all subtlety and realistic analysis from the discussion.
Marx did similar things. It's tempting to do this when you start off very committed to
one point of view and want to reinforce it.

juttafranz: Nobody Carl! And imagine who bombed: the leftist terrorists!
It was the same "global clique" that bombed the Twin Towers. and this, surely,
is not a "fact".

juttafranz: The whole world knows that it was the "leftist terrorists"; this is an
"absolute fact" -- I am going to write a scientific Ph.D. thesis one this, and I will
get summa cum laude. This is exactly what I described in my intro. We are too
much lovers of infowarfare "facts"

juttafranz: Newspeak got us at ....

carlzim: My late father ,an American whose parents immigrated to USA from
Germany, said that the French military behaved like ######## in that war.
After winning independence and Franz Fanon's involvement, today, Algeria is
politically , culturally and economically linked to France. The upper classes
speak French, and tbe women die their hair blonde.

carlzim: DeGaulle, then Cohn Bendit.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fascism is certainly not to be reduced to one single aspect
of a complex matter, that involves economical, political, social and psychological
factors, Scott. What I have been trying to show earlier is, that there can be factors
of passiveness and acceptance of the status quo at work, that should certainly not
be underestimated. People often go the path of least resistance - unless perhaps
they actually have nothing more to loose in their world than their proper lives.
Other than that, prefabricated patterns seem to be effective, as always.

juttafranz: Jutta, you are thinking, and that is "no-good", that is "dialectical gibberish",
not "a matter of fact".

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, the "upper class" here in Venezuela is very uncomfortable
with the fact, that the current president has what they call "indio" traits. They would
prefer a proper "white" looking president.

juttafranz: At last, a "fact", Jutta!!!

carlzim: Jutta, this is evident in the Spanish novellas on USA TV.

juttafranz: Well, folks, the central theme of today is really "Quo vadis?"
How will the American dream, the bombing of Iraq now continue, when
Saudi Arabia does notwant to play the "hench-man" role anymore, and
that Joschka & Schroeder are getting cold feet, after all, the Arab countries
are very near to Europe, and the Yankee sits far away comfortably as a
"Pentagon Alien" riding on its Noble Eagle.

carlzim: One novella portrays Catalan Spaniards living alongside Moors
in Gibraltar. The blond haired blue eyed Catalans project superiority over
the Moors even though both are rich.

carlzim: There's a power struggle in Saudi Arabia.

juttafranz: The global depression and recession continues, corporate America
gets daily more corrupt: something must be done. What will de done now, to
save the sinking ship of State of America, of Bush? After all, Bearden warned
us about all these; and the man is even a prophet, he foresaw the American
"New World War". A koodoo to him!

carlzim: The USA wants to go it alone with UK vs. Iraq because it doesn't
want to share the victory with others.

juttafranz: The Pyrrhic victory, Carl?

carlzim: Who orchestrated the Depression?

juttafranz: Uncle Sam, Carl.

juttafranz: Uncle Dagobert too.

juttafranz: And now Bill Gates plays Robin Hood, in the White House Forest!!

carlzim: Franz, actually some global economic elites did.

juttafranz: Any more reflections concerning the central theme?

carlzim: USA are pawns.

juttafranz: Do "space exploration", "life sciences", "cloning" and Tesla Energy
enter in this global picture?

carlzim: All interelated, Franz.

carlzim: Control, profit.

juttafranz: Will the world ever be the same again? And, if we want to make it
"better", the comparative of "good", then, what should or could still be done?
What do you all think? World peace, democracy, revolution, etc., all failed. what
did not fail as yet?

juttafranz: These are central praxical-theoretical questions.

nonpositivism: back to some facts on the ground: Jutta and Franz, what is your
reading of the current political status in Venezuela?

juttafranz: Many accepted the "holy ghost", many "gave up the ghost", one saw a
ghost, and he uttered: "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt
of in your philosophy." So, what "more things" are there/

juttafranz: .. still exist also.

carlzim: On Iran, another player:
In the 70's, the Shah was dying of Cancer and going crazy. He wanted to restore
the grandeur of Persia. He favored Socialists and adherents to Zoroaster religion,
and killed or imprisoned Islamic militants. The USA perceived an Islamic republic
was a good alternative to a Soviet style system. So the CIA helped Khomeini seize
power. The American hostage crisis was staged. The Iran-USA conflict is phony.
Global oil interests (mostly Western) supply the oil refining technology and thus
control Iranian oil policy. Today, the USA manipulates Iran to offset Iraq.

nonpositivism: By the way, Franz I'm a bit surprised you said you were a Positivist
before. But I would be even more surprised if Jutta admitted it too. Haha.

juttafranz: I am impatiently awaiting "fatcs" on myserious questions above, folks.

juttafranz: Yes, Scott, I am a positivist, and much, much more ... one of those
'more things" that I want you all to tell me.

nonpositivism: Sorry, have to exit Conference momentarily. If Jutta and Franz have
update on Venezuelan political turmoil I would be grateful to receive it now or later.
Stella, you were too quiet today...I missed your input. Carl, thanks for your always
unique perspective........Ciao.

juttafranz: How can I not be a positivist or even a racist in capitalism, in
capitalist society; it is a "fact" that I am born in positivism, live and work in
positivism. I am not a "Great Pretender", I am not a "liar" like Bin Laden!

Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.

carlzim: Franz, lots of room for creativity, e.g., combine art and math.
Here are the very easy steps how to create fractals after chat:
http://math.rice.edu/~lanius/fractals/
- it starts with Sierpinski's triangle
(the legend is on the left side of the screen)

You can do it yourself with help of Java programming available now.
Just click the option: using Java (after Sierpinski triangle) - the direct link is here:
http://math.rice.edu/~lanius/fractals/sierjava.html

and press the black arrow pointing to the right, the fractal will grow while your pressing it.

juttafranz: But, I am not ONLY that, that's why I am invincible, I am much, much MORE!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, firstly a word with regard to your question above: I don't think
"world peace", "democracy", "revolution" etc. failed, but what we see as the global
reality today IS actually the much hailed world peace, democracy, revolution, etc. In
Orwellian words: war is peace, dictatorship is democracy, reaction is revolution.
And it is not even a question of making it "better" - it's just "perfect" enough.
That's the reality we live in. And it is this overall, planetary reality that affects
each and every breath, each and every thought and act in each and every of its corners.

carlzim: Scott, thanks for joining the chat, and providing excellent insights.

juttafranz: Well, jutta, now I must switch to "doublethink", the lingo of our current
era. In this sense, I agree with you: Democracy, World Peace, French Revolution,
Bourgeois Reign of Terror, all have realized themselves, are victorious, are much
better than their authors Plato, Maquiavelli or Hobbes could ever have dreamt about.

juttafranz: Now, I see the facts in the face: War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery!!

juttafranz: 11 and 13 are 666.

juttafranz: What a "Merry 13"! What a "Good 11"! What a "New 666"!

juttafranz: Still, I do not know what "more", what else can be "hoped" for?
I still do not get the Kantian answer, formulated in his famous "Critique".
I just see that everybody has changed to visibility, to recognition.

juttafranz: Carl, i'll check those URL's later. Thanks.

missnaranjahit: For today I don't have any answer Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Secondly, if we like it or not: Not the slightest
"experiment" that is deviating from the course of things as they stand
on the global order of the day, is being permitted. Not an experiment
"indeed" (like a single miserable, outdated, isolated agrarian reform
and a somewhat more "just" redistribution of the wealth amongst the
population of a country) and not an experiment in thought (even something
as small as introducing "Bolivarian ideology"). All experiments in this
sense are potentially terrorist, with the corresponding threat over their heads.

juttafranz: That's an answer, Stella. An excellent one!! Wie anders, aber nicht "Wie ....!".

jutta_schmitt2002: Visibility eliminates the need for hope, Franz.

juttafranz: The answer is blowing in the wind, Stella! Listen how it howls
through the Andes valleys.

jutta_schmitt2002: Visibility and recognition are the exterminators of hope.

missnaranjahit: hmmmm, there are no Andes valleys here, seems I have to buy a ticket ...

carlzim: I'm listening.

juttafranz: But, when things were invisible and unrecognizable, everybody
"saw" them, now that everything is clear, now that the rain is gone, nobody
is left with eyes anymre, they all played the Mideast game: an eye for an eye!

juttafranz: That's the problem, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hope is the exterminator of visibility and recognition, Franz.

juttafranz: Yes, hope blinds people to see reality!

juttafranz: Who hopes, does not act, not think, not excel, is blinder than a "bat"!

carlzim: News! Former Crown Prince Hassan of Jordan wants Iraqi throne after
Saddam is removed.

juttafranz: Not "religion" as Kingsley, the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury,
long before Marx, has said, is the opium of the people, it is its "opium",
the gift of the "holy ghost", Hope.

carlzim: Great photos of Life in America today after chat:
http://www.lifeinamerica.us/

juttafranz: Well, Carl, at least, he is taking the "Crown of Creation" very seriously!

Fading out .....

juttafranz: Folks, I think that we could stop here today.
missnaranjahit: Folks I have to sign off now. Need some chill out with a glas of wine, to be honest.
juttafranz: I had my fun asusual, and I thank you all heartily for your assistance and invaluable contributions.
juttafranz: Stella, did you send me the last corrected chat already?
carlzim: Stella, thanks for joining the chat.
juttafranz: Did you send me the corrected chat, if not, please do now!
missnaranjahit: No Franz seems you did not open the mail I sent you about this case.
Let's talk about it after closing the chatroom here.
juttafranz: We all sign off now, Stella!!!
juttafranz: OK! I was too busy, Stella!
juttafranz: Will open it just now.
juttafranz: Bye, Folks!!!
carlzim: OK, Franz, Fun chat today.
carlzim: Bye, all.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Carl, bye Stella.
missnaranjahit: Bye all!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all.
 

SEARCH  MACHINE

NEXT

BACK

TO FRANZJUTTA.ORG

TO FRANZJUTTA.COM

TO FRANZ LEE.ORG

TO JUTTA'S HOME PAGE

TO CARL'S PAGE

TRANSHISTORY.COM

BACK TO GEOCITIES

BACK TO PANDEMONIUM

TO STEVE'S PAGE

EXILES, ISSUES & EVENTS

EMANCIPATION.COM