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SAYING: HI!

jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Carl and Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Looks like it is us "three musketeers" today.
juttafranz: Hi! Folks!! The Three Musketeers!!
carlzim: Hi, Franz&Jutta\
carlzim: Les Trois Mousketairs
carlzim: Aux armes cityoens
juttafranz: Stella will come a little bit later.
jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Carl. Je suis d'accord. - Franz, then I would suggest we start right away.
carlzim: Franz, please begin
juttafranz: Heard nothing from Scott since days -- I don't know in which flesh-pot he landed now again.
juttafranz: Josue may log in from Miami.
jutta_schmitt2002: Have you heard from Scott, Carl?
carlzim: I haven't heard from Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: Hm, maybe he got lost in the Florida swamps...
juttafranz: Well, then we could begin all the same.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, proceed.
carlzim: Crocodile?
carlzim: Franz, please begin
jutta_schmitt2002: Yes, Carl. Definitely.

The introduction

juttafranz: Folks, to really have a serious chat, somehow I have to elaborate some
unusual, unknown historic manifestations, thus kindly bear it with me, be
patient, and thereafter we could have a very fructiferous discussion. Of course,
in between as usual, you could make all sorts of comments that strictly
pertain to the quintessence of what I am elaborating. I need about 15 - 20
minutes to state my case.

jutta_schmitt2002: That's okay with me.

juttafranz: WHAT are We, a n d as WHO do we exist AND HOW do we excel ourselves?
Quo vadis? What an answering Question! What a questioning Answer!

jutta_schmitt2002: And who is "we"?

jutta_schmitt2002: But go ahead, Franz.

juttafranz: Mmmm ... Jutta!

juttafranz:
In the material that I sent you, on August 15, 2000, Frank Gaglioti wrote:
 

"The elaboration of the human genome sequence is a
major step in demystifying the evolution of the human
species and the workings of the human body. Aided by
technology, such scientific discoveries puncture the
clouds of superstition that surround human existence and
weaken the grip of religion over the minds of men and
women. But Clinton and Collins were at pains to present
this achievement of science as a vindication of religion."
...
 

carlzim: OK, Franz .

juttafranz: "Any serious reflection on the genome project reveals the
absurdity of invoking it to reinforce religion. If, indeed,
the human genome is God's “instruction book,” it is not
very well written. A rational designer would hardly have
written his instructions in such a complex and even
confused way, causing frequent “mistakes” in the way
the instructions are “read.” One result of such mistakes
is the emergence of genetic disorders."

jutta_schmitt2002: Interesting, Franz. Go on.

juttafranz:
The human genome project certainly does not have as its prerogative the
"demystification of the evolution of the human species and the workings
of the human body"; these are simply annoying but necessary "working"
by-products. Furthermore, exactly the opposite of the following is "true":

"such scientific discoveries puncture the
clouds of superstition that surround human existence and
weaken the grip of religion over the minds of men and
women."

jutta_schmitt2002: So you mean even more "clouds of suspicion" have come up ever since the human genome project decoded the
human genome?

juttafranz: Well said, Jutta! Continuing ....

juttafranz:
The human genome project -- as all its fore-runners, as the thousands of
projects of "conscientization" of Non-A, of the "Negation" within the Labour
System could testify anywhere, anywhen, anyhow -- does not have the patrian
telos to de-annihilate, to disalienate itself; au contraire, it has nothing to do
with human health or sanity, it is just adapting archaic religion and obsolete
ideology to the latest superstructural mind and thought control programmes,
adopting innovative, modern technological enslavement machinery to its
current galaxy of bellicose "mental holocaust" operations.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, invite Josué please.

Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has joined the conference.

juttafranz: I invited him!

carlzim: Josue is online. Please invite.

carlzim: Hi, Josue.

jutta_schmitt2002: There he is. Hi Josué!

josuecc: Hi, from Miami,FL .

josuecc: Hi, Jutta .

juttafranz: Hi! Josue! From the land of Florida elections!! Substitute for Scott today?

jutta_schmitt2002: Great you've managed to join us, Josué!

josuecc: Hi, Carl.

carlzim: Great. How is the weather in Miami?

josuecc: Substitute for Scott? Very good.

juttafranz: Josue, I will repeat my last posting for you ....

juttafranz: I am still at the introduction ....

jutta_schmitt2002: SSS - Scott Schneider Substitute.

josuecc: Hi, Franz.

juttafranz:
The human genome project -- as all its fore-runners, as the thousands of
projects of "conscientization" of Non-A, of the "Negation" within the Labour
System could testify anywhere, anywhen, anyhow -- does not have the patrian
telos to de-annihilate, to disalienate itself; au contraire, it has nothing to do
with human health or sanity, it is just adapting archaic religion and obsolete
ideology to the latest superstructural mind and thought control programmes,
adopting innovative, modern technological enslavement machinery to its
current galaxy of bellicose "mental holocaust" operations.

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

josuecc: Good .

juttafranz: Continuing ....
Very easily we forget the historic context of the human genome project,
it has very little to do with "superstition or religion", with "human health or
intelligence", with "life" or "death", with the 21st century, or with the
"Information Highway", it is simply a stage of development of labour, of the
"life sciences", of productive transmutation, of so-called "Globalization"; in
reality, it is the timeless, spaceless demise of the sonorous human "species",
the irreligious transvolution towards sempiternal, eviternal creativity and
transcendental creation; the emancipatory Dawn AND Dusk of history itself.

jutta_schmitt2002: Well Franz, I do have my doubts whether this is an emancipatory dawn and dusk of history.

jutta_schmitt2002: I don't see emancipation on the horizon with "homo genomicus from the lab".

juttafranz: Of History: YES! Of the fatherland: NO!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Unless the demise of the "fatherland" automatically equals the rise of history, which is also problematic to assume.

juttafranz: History existed "long, long before" the Patria, and it can exist "zillions of light years" "after" the Patria!

juttafranz: Even chimpanzees exist longer than the patria! If the chimpanzees can, why not WE?

jutta_schmitt2002: Thus, "the patria" is part of history, and history is more than "the patria".

juttafranz: Of course, continuing ...
Now, let us briefly visit some historic moments, chosen at random. Again,
quoting Hamlet, "there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of
in our philosophy". The masses, the workers, the proletariat, the socialists, the
communists, etc., are not the only planetary or galactic essences a n d
existences AND transcendences that have a "problem" with this patrian,
patriarchal monstrosity; other relations and "translations" -- including
ourselves -- are affecting, effecting and annihilating this transversal scourge of
anything beautiful, truthful, loving, human, humane and humanist.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hm, continue, Franz.

josuecc: ok.

juttafranz: You asked for it, now enjoy it, Jutta!

jutta_schmitt2002: Let's see what you have up your sleeve, Franz.

juttafranz: More to come, Jutta.

juttafranz:
Many socialists insist that "mankind has yet to consciously master his own
social organization. So long as the masses of people have not grasped the
law-governed workings of society, and on that basis reconstructed society on
more rational, humane and egalitarian foundations, superstition and religion
will persist".

juttafranz:
The problem here entails grasping the scientific a n d philosophic meanings
of the following concepts at first: "mankind", "the masses of people", "to
master", "law-governed workings"; only then, the emancipatory demystification
could commence. Already in previous chats we have warned about this kind of
well-meant language and thought, but dangerous ideological phraseology.
 

jutta_schmitt2002: The very conception of "conscientizing the masses" may have a
religious root in so far it resembles very much the "recruitment of sheep for God".

jutta_schmitt2002: Also the statement "we are all human" may have its roots in the
statement that we all are "children of god".

juttafranz: Sheep that run blindly in "follow my leader", in fanatic, fascist suicide,
across the "Information Highway" of Corporate America and Europe, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: And all over the planet it seems, Franz.

juttafranz: Now, ...

jutta_schmitt2002: It even applies here in Venezuela.

josuecc: The film: "The Planet of the Simios" .

jutta_schmitt2002: Do you mean the "Planet of the Apes", Josué?

juttafranz: Yes, at the moment it is obvious here: virtual sheep following the Good
Old Shepherd, Uncle Sam.

juttafranz: Now, continuing ....

juttafranz:
What and who are we? Quo vadis? Well, let me just give you the historically
latest fons et origo, the final human "original sin". Let me beg for scientific
patience and scholarly attention. Trying to spotlight this answering question,
because we most times like to quote the "great works" of "great men", for a
change, concerning our "What" a n d "Who", let me quote myself, as explained
in my online publication: History of Wisdom, Chapter One,
http://www.franz-lee.org/files/praxistheory00002.html :

josuecc: Exactly Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: Ok, Josué.

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

juttafranz:
"Within the eviternal boundless cosmic process, Thinking commences
somewhence, nowhence, everywhence; somewhere, nowhere, everywhere;
somewhither, nowhither, everywhither."

"According to "modern scientists", some twenty-five million years ago, on the
"Dark Continent", with the advent of the Ape Man or Man Ape, Proconsul,
towards homo sahelanthropus tchadensis, some seven million years ago, the
melodrama of "human history" had begun. Thus, in the bosom of "Mother
Africa", the seeds for cogitare (Thinking) and cogitatio (Thought) were born.
Nonetheless, in the alma mater, officially we are being taught that around 600
B.C., with Thales of Miletus scientific and philosophic Thinking and Thought
began."

juttafranz: Continuing ....
"Between the 7th and 6th Century B.C., a hybridous process between
Cosmogony and Philosophy was ushered in: the intra-systemic, patrian,
qualitative leap from magical beliefs to "scientific knowledge". It is well-known
that the most important cosmogonic sanctuary in Ancient Greece was the
Oracle of Delphi, the Temple of Apollo, the Sun-God, who had extradited the
ancient Great Mother, Gaia. It had the wise inscription: gnothi seautón
(Know Thyself!). This is surely a wise "Commandment" to remember.

juttafranz:
This oracle ordained sophía, Wisdom; and its Divine Superintendent was the
Goddess Minerva (Athena). It is pertinent to note that the ancient "Seven Wise
Men" still had their genesis and sanction in Greek feminist mythology and
cosmogony. In this sonorous group always appeared: Thales of Miletus, Solon
of Athens and Bias of Priene. Other interchangeable erudite thinkers were
Pittakos of Mytilene, Periander, the Tyrant of Corinth, Epimenides of Crete,
Cheilon and Anarcharsis, the Schyte.

juttafranz:
Obviously, the Greek Sophos was a pagan, a chthonic artisan, a banausikos, a
handicraftsman, who also involved himself in matters of the Polis. He saw his
social task as not to be "banausian", not to be a vulgar member of the
community, on the contrary, he wanted to be active, cosmic, praxical. This is
the fons et origo of the future businessman, of the homo faber. His praxical
real life experiences the Sophos reflected and reproduced in his mind, in his
intellect. Here we note the archaic relation between action and thought,
between praxis and theory, that as production unfolds, progressively will be
transformed into dualistic, clashing physical and intellectual labour forces.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

josuecc: Carl?

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: I invited him back.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has declined to join and sent: Thanks, but no thanks.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

josuecc: Hi Carl .

juttafranz: Houdini is back!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Gone.

jutta_schmitt2002: Wait.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Maybe too many reinvites. Hi Carl.

juttafranz: Invited him again!!!

juttafranz: There he is!!!

carlzim: I'm here. Thanks.

josuecc: Carl this as the money of the FIEM in Venezuela ....!

jutta_schmitt2002: Haha, Josué!

carlzim: Josue, what is FIEM?

jutta_schmitt2002: Fondo de Inversión y Estabilización Macroeconómico.

juttafranz: Continuing, concerning the origin of productive thinking, of intellectual labour ...

jutta_schmitt2002: Funds for Investment and macroeconomic stabilization.

jutta_schmitt2002: The money keeps disappearing.

juttafranz: There we go Houdini --- Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Like you from the Chat, Carl )

juttafranz: This mental product he expressed as a gnome (Latin: sententia), as a guide
for future social praxis and theoria. Truly, this still has nothing to do with
goblins or dwarfs, or, in a modern sense, it has not yet the coming ideological
relation to the capitalist Gnomes of Zurich, Switzerland, or to the CEO's of
Corporate America. These wise, ancient gnomes were somehow still inspired
by gnosis, by "Know Thyself"! In essence, however, knowledge was already
related to "human" power, to social power. If we exclude the gifted Athenian
courtesan, Aspasia, the hetaira of Pericles, we have to realize that the
"WISE MEN" were already well on their way towards patriarchal empiricism, to
patrian positivism, to "Knowledge is Power" (Francis Bacon).

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: So, where did that "knowledge is power - road" lead to, Franz?

juttafranz: You will see just now, Jutta. ...

jutta_schmitt2002: Ok.

juttafranz:
Surely this intellectual process reflected severe economic and social tension
and conflict in Hellas, especially in the "colonies" of Asia Minor, particularly
in Miletus and Ephesus, the flourishing commercial and cultural centres. They,
social expressions of the primitive accumulation of capital, generated the
revolutionary seeds, the agon and agony of the future intrasystemic,
formal-logical and dialectical "negation", of the slave revolts, of the artisan and
peasant unrest: the archaic, patrian roots of Spartacus, Thomas Münzer,
Danton, Robespierre, Babeuf, Blanqui, Bakunin, Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Che,
Castro, etc.

josuecc: Chavez.

juttafranz: Now:

Concerning our mythological "Quo Vadis?", I quote:

"Long before Thales, all kinds of beings on Earth were acting, were trying to
express "What Is" in words, in gestures, in symbols, in rock paintings, in
hieroglyphics, in cuneiform writing, in language. Many human beings went
further, were already acting and thinking, were asking ontological questions.
And they were not only "Human Beings", in other words, not only Male Beings,
Ruling, Cratic Beings! "Homo (Man) Kenyapithecus" or the "Neanderthal
Man" probably did not even know that they were Men, were Machos.

juttafranz: Coming back to the genome map:

juttafranz:
If it is true what our "modern scientists" say, then among these Beings on
Earth were also monkeys, apes and chimpanzees. At least, Charles Darwin
already knew this. And, nowadays we know that: " Humans share 98.5
percent of their genes with chimpanzees" .

juttafranz:
Actually, the above should be formulated as follows:
"Chimpanzees share 98.5 percent of their genes with humans."
After all, the chimpanzees are our elders, they were born long before the
sonorous homo sapiens sapiens saw light on this planet. The above is a
typical arrogant manly "scientific" formulation. These are not redundant
remarks, also they have nothing to do with sophistry or hair-splitting, they
indicate what patrian ideology and hegemony are all about.

jutta_schmitt2002: Or rather the other way round.

jutta_schmitt2002: ditto

juttafranz: You are smart, Jutta!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.

juttafranz:
Certainly, "Primitive Man" was not only performing "monkey business", (s)he
was also asking simple, crucial questions. How did (s)he ask these questions,
by what method of communication? This is another topic. That (s)he had a
"brain", like millions of other beings on Planet Earth, that (s)he was acting, this
is certain, and this is, in the first place, what concerns us here.

juttafranz:
Long before Thales, as early as 2000 B.C., when the "Africans" had already
"discovered" America, in the slave-owning society of pharaonic Egypt, ruled by
"Blacks", where one of the ancient "Seven Wonders", the pyramids, reflected a
strong "this-sided" modus vivendi, atheistic crypto-materialistic conceptions
were rife. In one of the extant papyrus manuscripts of that remote epoch, we
can read: "Man disintegrates and his body changes itself into earth." In
the City of Death, "earth" was emphasized as an important archaic element.
These ancient Egyptians were very much "down to earth", and for them, "earth"
was one of the magical material elements of "What Is", of Essence."
( http://www.franz-lee.org/files/praxistheory00001.html )

juttafranz: Now, intensive concentration, please:

juttafranz:
Continuing, elucidating our present "Quo Vadis?":

"Quo vadis? Whither goest thou? This answering question presupposes a
dialogical Diagory : "I" a n d "Thou". "I" a n d "Thou" are related; perhaps "I"
do not know where (Space) "Thou" goest, also not when (Time), and worse
even, how "Thou" goest (Bezug, Relation, Motion, Velocity).

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay.

juttafranz:
Usually, "whither" is "going" in Time, but not necessarily only in Time; it
is a specific Relation, a definite Bezug. This specific Relation itself has a
"whither", it is part and parcel of Cosmos and of Acting Cosmos; furthermore,
something or somebody is going, is acting, and it is its, her or his acting. There
are zillions of relations, but this one is a specific cosmic relation, an act and
acting; hence, it is a certain type of "non-relation", which again is a relation, a
special one, a non-relation. The "quo vadis", the answering question, is asked
in intellectual terms, in a space and time relation, in simple patrian motion.

juttafranz: I know it is complex, but, here we go ...

juttafranz:
This type of "whither" has a cosmic, praxical, concrete substratum, a
non-relation. We should recollect here that "non" does not mean "no", no
relation whatsoever, nothing in a patrian, normative, "bad" sense;
scientifically, logically, "non-" simply means what it denotes, a non-relation,
the contrary or opposite (not the negation) of a relation, the "Non-A-In-Itself" or
of an "A", and this is not nothing. There are relations, non-relations,
semi-relations, hemi-relations, non-relations and relations (A and Non-A),
non-relations a n d relations (A a n d B), neither non-relations nor relations (A
a n d B AND C), etc.; consequently, zillions of logical Bezüge!
 

juttafranz: Now, it gets easier again ...

juttafranz: For the space and time being, we encounter ourselves on the planet, Mother
Earth, and "I" cognize "Thou" going, acting, and "I" want to know, want to
cognize "whither?" "Thou" is going; how it or she or he acts; why acting just
in a certain way? For example: Why does a capitalist essentially only act to
acquire profits? Whether "Thou" knowest anything, knowest about the essence
a n d existence of "I" (me), "I" still do not know as yet. To know this, "I" must
get a questioning answer from "Thou".
 

jutta_schmitt2002: So are you indicating that there is another way to ask-answer
"Quo Vadis", Franz?

juttafranz: Yes!

juttafranz: Jutta, to ask answering questions, "I" should at least act, and should express this
Act in words, in language, in gestures, symbols, in a question. And "I" can
formulate any question, and can address it to anything, to anybody, to "Thou".
"Thou" can be Anything: Cosmos, Act, Relation, I Myself, Man, Capital,
Einstein, Marx, A Goat, A Burning Bush, My Computer, etc. The above, Marx
had formulated as follows: "It is not sufficient that Thought aspires towards
Reality, Reality itself must aspire towards Thought". ("Es genügt nicht, dass
der Gedanke zur Wirklichkeit drängt, die Wirklichkeit selbst muss zum
Gedanken drängen.")

jutta_schmitt2002: So, we need at least "two" to do the tango: subject and object.

jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps we even need three: subject, object, "transject"?

juttafranz: Yes, and who knows what MORE!!

juttafranz: Finally, "what" are we, as "who" do we exist, whither, "how" are we excelling?
Not to bear the brunt of answering complex questions, not to devour the lion's
share, this triagoric, trialogical question, I leave to you all, to all of us, to
answer in the following debate and discussion. The rest you could read
at: http://www.franz-lee.org . That's all, folks.

THE DEBATE COMMENCES ....
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Thank you very much for an intricate, philosophical introduction, Franz.

juttafranz: Don't mention it, Jutta.

josuecc: Thank you professor Franz, interesting.

juttafranz: It's a pleasure, Josue!

carlzim: Franz, thanks for the excellent introduction on ruling class use human engineering technology for control of hoi polloi. They
may have used this technology in Yugoslavia, e.g., a passive Milosovec on TV. A nd on trial.
>From Emperor's Clothes Email List
URL for this article: http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/whatismy-1.htm

carlzim:
=======================================
Part 1 -
WHAT IS MY OFFENSE?
INTERVIEW WITH SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC.
Interviewers, Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser
Reprinted from www.pravda.ru

[Posted 15 August 2002]
=======================================

juttafranz: Carl, thanks for your kind words! Now within the above context, you are free
to make comments, ask questions.

carlzim: At 7:00 PM the phone rang. I was asleep in the hotel room, dreaming I was in Serbia.
"We're going to see Milosevic. Please hurry!"

josuecc: Franz: The humanity living to: "The Planet of Apes"?

juttafranz: Continue .... Carl.

carlzim: The fact that different ethnic groups are in a country could be a wealth
for that country. Yugoslavia was a modern federation
with different cultures, heritages, living mainly in harmony. When the question of
who is Macedonian, who is Croatian, etc., was
imposed from the outside, like a torpedo, it produced problems. How could Croats
have an interest in the dissolution of Yugoslavia
when a part of the Croatian people was living in Bosnia and so on? Or Muslims?
And what would become of us, divided into little states?

carlzim: In Europe there is no recognition of cultural and ethnic differences. Every country
needs new formulas adapted to deal with cultural and ethnic differences in a respectful fashion.
Yugoslavia had such a code. That is one of the reasons Yugoslavia was not
recognized as a solution by certain international forces. They didn't want our kind of solution.
They didn't want the example. They had another solution, which is at the core of their strategy
for conquest, the solution of using ethnic differences to destabilize, divide et impera.

carlzim: race hate, let me ask them a question. Why is it that most Serbs have been purged from
Croatia but not only have Croats stayed, unharmed, in Serbia, but tens of thousands of Croatian,
Bosnian Muslim and Kosovo Albanian refugees have been welcomed
here? Why is that the Roma, bellwether of racism in Europe, are so loyal to Yugoslavia and Serbia?
Today Serbia has a large non-Serbian population, the same as before the destruction of
Yugoslavia. But Slovenia and Croatia are "pure."

carlzim: That was Milosevic talking.

juttafranz: Yes, Josue, we descend from the apes, this means that even in apehood or apeness
there is some genetic defect, "hopefully", it is not the 1% that makes the difference between
them and us! Our extra 1% must be our soul, Josue.

carlzim: NATO is supposedly an alliance. An alliance means equal states. But in fact, NATO
was a war machine imposed by the US.
Big Master didn't ask the Italians, "Do you think we should bomb that Serbian passenger train?"

juttafranz: We have over 5 billion religious descendants from the apes, but, I have never seen a praying, genuflecting ape as yet!

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, resuming from your above introduction I think that it is
decisive, who poses the question "quo vadis" and
how. And we will get different (question-)answers according to who poses the
question and how it is asked. However, what Carl is
elaborating here is the big homogenization process that tries to blur all differences
on the one hand and yet cannot live without them
on the other hand, because it needs the differences for waging wars.

juttafranz: Not even in "Planet Of The Apes", Josue.

juttafranz: So, who are the apes, aping after "Western Religious Culture", and
blessing America?

carlzim:
Now we are seeing the destabilization of the whole of Southeastern Europe including Greece.
Macedonia is under terrorist attack.
They will start destabilizing Bulgaria soon. They will of course create problems in Romania as well.

carlzim: That's all...NWO, NATO=APES

jutta_schmitt2002: Strategy for conquest always implies "divide et impera",
Carl, and "differences" are badly needed for that, even
created if necessary. Destabilization works with the same parameters.

carlzim: Good points, Jutta!

juttafranz:
Jutta you say: "I think that it is decisive, who poses the question "quo vadis"
and how. And we will get different (question-)answers according to who poses
the question and how it is asked." D'accord! But, I put the answering question
in a planetary, galactic manner; in fact, its answer is not dependent on the will,
whim or caprice of a few "chosen people". It concerns
historic, emancipatory
analysis, that goes far beyond the rationalizations for patrian labour
exploitation. The question touches the limits of the "rat race", is an
intensive-extensive, transcendental answering question.

carlzim: Culture is related to behavior in the Balkans, e.g., Bulgars-mix of Greek (stubborn),
Slavic (tough) and Turkish (nasty),

jutta_schmitt2002: Agreed Franz, yet the striking thing is that this question
is being heard all over the place lately - it seem "galactic
reality" is pushing towards the thought in our times. Of course you hear the question
raised in a less philosophical-transcendental sense, but with the same fervour and concern
that we are posing-answering it ourselves. Quo Vadis is certainly the question millions
of Venezuelan's are asking these days. Not so, Josué?

josuecc: I agree, Jutta .

jutta_schmitt2002: I think the Turkish won't be really happy with this qualification, Carl.

carlzim: Romanians are a mix of Italian (romantic), Greek (stubborn), Slavic (tough) and Gypsy (wild)

juttafranz: Furthermore, Jutta, you say: " However, what Carl is elaborating here is the big
homogenization process that tries to blur all
differences on the one hand and yet cannot live without them on the other hand,
because it needs the differences for waging wars."
Well, this concerns the dialectics of Heracleitus that we indicated before.
It concerns agon, agony, strife, war -- the
auto-dynamism of the labour system, its bellicose nature. And "nature" is the
word, it is its attitude to its objective, natural habitat. Man is a parasite, and he will
blod-suck his life-bringer to the very last drop --
and we are heading for this very last drop of water, the last breath of oxygen now.

carlzim: Jutta, Fran&I visited Istanbul last year. Turks are proud to be nasty.

jutta_schmitt2002: Now, if the humble people of Venezuela ask "quo vadis",
they surely do so with fear and hope combined, still
envisioning what they conceive as their emancipatory dreams. If "the opposition"
and connected forces pose the question "quo vadis",
they certainly envision, fear and hope in a rather different manner.

jutta_schmitt2002: Many many years ago, I visited Turkey, Carl, and conceived
the Turkish people I met as warm and friendly,
eager to get to know the "stranger" and convert him/her into a friend.

carlzim: Agreed, Jutta. By nasty, I meant toward invaders and criminals.

carlzim: The Ottoman Empire was an army.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, may I ask what are your fears and hopes with regard to Venezuela?
If you ask yourself "quo vadis" (=whereto are we heading), what do you see, what do you envision?

juttafranz:
Again, Jutta, you state: "it seem 'galactic reality' is pushing towards the
thought in our times." Actually, this is the very source of our current
science  a n d  philosophy. Without this cosmic, galactic action  a n d
magellanocentric thought, we could not transvolve, cannot cognize, recognize
the extra-terraque realities, the extraterrestrial spheres. We are being blown
on the galactic winds to faraway "spaces' and "places", to pioneer adventures.

Yahoo! Messenger: naranjahit is not available.
Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has joined the conference.

juttafranz: Hi! Stella!!!

josuecc: Hi Stella!!!!!!

carlzim: Post from a Yugoslav contact:

"A minority of Croats, helped by the CIA and the Turkish and Albanian army was fighting
against the Serbs.
In the days of the war, US used islam as a destabilizing force. everywhere in the world they
supported and trained the mujahiddeen. Also in Europe is a strange kind of islamophilia reigning.
This islamophilia made that today in Germany live 5 million muslim Turks, in France, Belgium, the
Netherlands or Great-Brittain it is not better.
It are those islamophiles that rallied the European Nato-countries against the Serbs.

jutta_schmitt2002: Beautifully said, Franz, and this question-answer puts us well into orbit.
Included in the galactic reality is the terrestrial, the global reality.
And it also contains many hints, many traces that point towards a pioneering orbit.

josuecc: Stella is FIEM, too?

carlzim: Those islamophiles could easy rally the conservative catholic politicians against the christian
orthodox Serbs. The resistance of Eltsin was just ridiculous, involved as he was in the
Mabetex-affair. Mabetex is the building company that did the renovation of the kremlin. Eltsin was
bribed. the boss of Mabetex, Behgjet Paccoli is the godfather of the Albanian mafia, and a close
friend to Carla del Ponte.

juttafranz: Interesting, Carl.

Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Stella!!!! )))

jutta_schmitt2002: Nice to see you.

josuecc: Hi Stella!!!!!

missnaranjahit: Hi Jutta, nice to see you!

carlzim: Hi, Stella.

jutta_schmitt2002: We know you have come from work exhausted and tired. Thanks for joining in for a moment!

missnaranjahit: Hi Carl, Franz, Josue!

josuecc: Hi.

carlzim: Moving on to Bin Laden…From
How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

BY NORM DIXON

"Throughout the world ... its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive -
on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive,
and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves.
They're doing so on alm
ost every continent populated by man - in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola,
in Kampuchea, in Central America ... [They are] freedom fighters."

jutta_schmitt2002: We have Josué here today, he has logged in from Miami.

missnaranjahit: I am just here for a moment to say hello.

missnaranjahit: Wow, Josue this is great.

juttafranz: Stella, for you, my last posting:
Again, Jutta, you state: "it seem 'galactic reality' is pushing towards the
thought in our times." Actually, this is the very source of our current
science  a n d  philosophy. Without this cosmic, galactic action  a n d
magellanocentric thought, we could not transvolve, cannot cognize, recognize
the extra-terraque realities, the extraterrestrial spheres. We are being blown on the galactic
winds to faraway "spaces" and "places",
to pioneer adventures.

carlzim:
Is this a call to jihad (holy war) taken from one of Islamic fundamentalist Osama bin Laden's
notorious fatwas? Or perhaps a
communique issued by the repressive Taliban regime in Kabul?

In fact, this glowing praise of the murderous exploits of today's supporters of
arch-terrorist bin Laden and his Taliban collaborators,
and their holy war against the "evil empire", was issued by US President Ronald Reagan
on March 8, 1985. The "evil empire" was
the Soviet Union, as well as Third World movements fighting US-backed colonialism,
apartheid and dictatorship.

missnaranjahit: Just proceed with your conference.

carlzim: How things change. In the aftermath of a series of terrorist atrocities
- the most despicable being the mass murder of more
than 6000 working people in New York and Washington on September 11 -
bin Laden the "freedom fighter" is now lambasted by
US leaders and the Western mass media as a "terrorist mastermind" and an "evil-doer".

Yet the US government refuses to admit its central role in creating the vicious movement
that spawned bin Laden, the Taliban and
Islamic fundamentalist terrorists that plague Algeria and Egypt -
and perhaps the disaster that befell New York.
 

carlzim: The mass media has also downplayed the origins of bin Laden and his toxic
brand of Islamic fundamentalism.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/465/465p15.htm
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl: the pattern remains the same, the contents change.

carlzim: Yep, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: The quo vadis question in this case is a circular question.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué - a word from you please, what you envision with regard to Venezuela!

jutta_schmitt2002: ¿Quo vadis, Chávez? ¿Quo vadis, revolución bonita? ¿Quo vadis,
revolución pacífica?

juttafranz: In fact, Josue, you are there in Florida, where they cook the patterns:
Chile, Venezuela, Liberia and Zimbabwe -- identical destabilizing American schemes:
what do you think about the idea that we had no "coup" here in Venezuela on April 11: what do the
people in Miami think? Are they celebrating.

josuecc: And a week ago was in Cuba.

jutta_schmitt2002: You are quite a traveller, Josué. Did you hear about yesterday's
supreme court decision?

josuecc: In Miami they are celebrating!!!!

carlzim: Add Iraq, Iran, Yugoslavia.

juttafranz: The Supreme Court of Justice of Venezuela arrived at the bright idea yesterday
that no military coup occurred here in Venezuela on April 11, hence all the rebels will go
scot-free!! What a world!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Yes, Carl.

carlzim: Josue, celebrating Chavez in Miami?

josuecc: No.

juttafranz: Big Brother really is coming to get Venezuela.

josuecc: The "Contra" is very happy.

carlzim: Ministry of Truth in Venezuela.

carlzim: Who are the Contra?

jutta_schmitt2002: This will create yet once more unrest and deepen instability. -
The Supreme Court is, indeed, Venezuela's Ministry of Truth.

juttafranz: Josue, you better start speaking American, grow some dollar trees,
and buy yourself a modern automatic rifle, that shoots by itself, wherever it hears
the sound of a camel.

josuecc: I think that if a coup d'etat April 11, the TSJ take a political decision.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, have you given some charlas
in Miami already? How long will you stay, where will you speak? --- Yesterday's decision equals
a coup d'état - it is the judicial
version of a coup d'état, and they are about to introduce claims against the president and his
government before the Supreme Court.

juttafranz: Well, the Lord said: "The end is nigh!" I can just say: "Father, forgive the
Venezuelan 'opposition', they don't know what
they are doing." They'll end up as scape-goats, like Kabila, Pinochet and Mobutu.

josuecc: Good counsel, Professor Franz.

josuecc: I don't have given some charlas in Miami.

juttafranz: Josue, what do you think, how will things develop further here?

What do the Miami Venezuelan "Contras" think? And the Cuban "Pros"?

josuecc: With the decision of the Most supreme Court of Justice then we are
able to say that April 11 nothing occur in Venezuela.

juttafranz: Quo vadis, Chavez? Quo vadis, the lumpen of Caracas that live in carton-boxes?
Quo vadis, the wealthy middle class of Venezuela?

jutta_schmitt2002: Worse even, Josué: What happened on April 11th, 12th and 13th is,
that Chavez and his ministers ousted the "legitimate government" of Pedro Carmona Estanga
with a coup d'état.

josuecc: Miami Venezuelan "Contras" think that justice has done himself and is the first
great rout of Chavez, the first battle earned by the opposition.

jutta_schmitt2002: How could the Supreme Court of Venezuela, which was dissolved
under the de facto regime of Carmona
Estanga, determine, that April 11th no coup d'état happened? This is so embarrasingly
stupid and unconvincing that it hurts. An obviously political decision.

josuecc: TSJ=Miquilena in this the problem.

jutta_schmitt2002: Exactly, Josué.

juttafranz: Really, folks, it is much easier than ever before to install a real, true,
democratic government these days, like here in
Venezuela. And, you know why? Because democracy is obsolete already.
Nobody, less Bush, cares a dime about democracy
anymore. Hence, democracy is no more an antidote against anti-terrorist attacks,
on the contrary, it invites such US-NATO bombings!

carlzim: After chat, read about USA-Cuba military cooperation. Cuba and USA are now allies.

http://www.uscubasecurity.org/index.html

http://www.uscubasecurity.org/issues.html

Gen. Charles Wilhelm, USMC (Ret.)
Commander in Chief, U.S. Southcom,
1997-2000
Distinguished Military Fellow, CDI

This is an interesting time in the history of the
Americas. We are threatened by no external
power from the other side of any ocean.

carlzim: Each year, a delegation of U.S. military experts
sponsored by CDI meets with Cuban military and
political officials in Havana to explore ways the two
countries might cooperate on regional security
concerns. These are excerpts from those meetings.

juttafranz: In fact, the more democratic you are, the more foolish you become,
the tighter you pull the hangman's noose around your
own neck -- this is Chavez' fate currently.

jutta_schmitt2002: And the problem has just begun: You bet we will see antejuicios de
méritos opened by the Supreme Court against president Chávez himself.

carlzim: What do you think of the USA-Castro alliance?

juttafranz: If you behave "democratically" with "infinite justice", just shooting and bombing
around in genetically based "Cowboy style", like a real Vaquero or Gringo, then you are the
most loved "president" on Earth!

josuecc: Alliance USA-Cuba??????? I dont belive!!!!!!!

carlzim: Visit the above links after chat.

carlzim: Cia put Castro in power.

josuecc: Is this "trialogical" Prof. Franz?

carlzim: Trialogics, si!

juttafranz: Well, on September 11, we have witnessed the noble
metamorphosis of "democracy", of the bird of prey, of "Liberty", into
its quintessence, into Global Fascism.

carlzim: USA,m si!

carlzim: Castro Si!

carlzim: USA, si!

juttafranz: Yes, trimensional!

josuecc: Bush?

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, the question is, why is an enemy needed? It seems this globalized,
post Soviet era could do without wars
and enemies, yet all the contrary is the case. And you find alliances you thought would never
occur, and "new enemies" and "new
wars" spring up like mushrooms.

carlzim: Bush Jr's father was head of CIA.

juttafranz: Bush lives up to his name.

carlzim: CIA=Bush Jr's link to Castro.

carlzim: Agreed, Jutta.

josuecc:

juttafranz: Imagine a man from the bush, a Bush-Man, a Bushman, for centuries,
what did we think about him?

juttafranz: Was he not a pagan, a barbarian, uncultured, uncivilized, stinking, a savage?

juttafranz: Now, racism even captured the bush, converted it into a patriotic September 11
"bush-fire".

juttafranz: So, whither goest thou? Quo vadis? Back to the bush, to Bush?
To the Jungle, to the Laws of the Jungle? Well, there are
no jungles anymore, and no forests are planted on the Moon or Mars, and they will never
ever be planted there.

juttafranz: Thus, concluding the central issue of this chat today ....

josuecc: And which to be the next surrender of "All against Chavez" in Venezuela?

juttafranz: We are going No-Where! Only, we specifically are not part of this "We",
we are "eternally" enjoying the inspiring sunshine
of "homo" sahel tschadiensis, 7 million years ago!

juttafranz: Jutta, could you reply to Josue's question, please.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, can you please reformulate your question? I don't understand it.

jutta_schmitt2002: Still I think, within the given limits of the case, there has been a great
"awakening" of the people, the humble people here in this country, Franz. The specific circumstances,
embedded in the current, global situation, have led at least to a certain
degree of reflection and action of those otherwise silently enduring "masses".
It may be comparable to a sparkling, falling star, that
shines and moves for a short moment, but it moves and leaves its traces in the eye of the observer.

josuecc: Which is the next step of the "Contra" in Venezuela?

jutta_schmitt2002: They will try to go forward with the trials against president
Chávez and his government, Josué, now that the Supreme Court has given "green light"
and signalled the new constellation of forces, in which the "opposition" prevails.

juttafranz: No-Where is the U-topia, the No-Place, the topos of which all "negations"
of the labour system have dreamt about for millennia -- well, at last, although it is not
exactly that what we were wishing to see, it is no more in the "future", it is Here and Now, it
is reality, it is the result of noble "New Wars". That's where all "Thou's" are heading -- it is their
Hope! This Truth stares billions in the face, but the pan et circenses continues on the sinking
Titanic, on corrupt Corporate America. Quo vadis? To: America!!

jutta_schmitt2002: In the case of Venezuela: ¿Quo vadis? ---> to Argentina.

jutta_schmitt2002: Argentina is the post-Chavez mirror.

juttafranz: Josue, you are the proof of the eating of the pudding. The golpista, Estanga
-- where does he want to go? And, where are you now, Josue? In America!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz!

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué is in America, but his heart is in Venezuela.

juttafranz: As our friend, Scott, used to say: I am just stating the "facts", Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: What a fact, my countryfranz.

juttafranz: Josue, I'm just teasing you with the positivistic, empiricistic, concrete, empty "facts".

carlzim: Visit the links below which hint at connection between Oklahoma City bombing
(Timothy McVeigh)and 9/11 As with Lee Harvey Oswald and JFK assassination, there's a
mysterious motel, 3rd world accomplices: Iraqis with McVeigh and Cuban exiles
with Oswald. Similar patterns. Were the Iraqis Saddam's guys or opposition?
Who owns the motels? CIA & Mafia? Did various
KGB or Stasi operations in former Soviet block follow similar patterns?
Similar intrigues in Bosnia or Kosovo? Carl

http://www.glennbeck.com/okc/index.htm
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=36924
 

josuecc: ok, ja ja ja.

juttafranz: OK, folks, that's all for today: we do not live by chat alone, Jutta is hungry!!
carlzim: OK, Franz
juttafranz: Thanks for the URL's, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: We'll take a look at the sites you provided, Carl. Thanks.
carlzim: Great chat. Fran sends regards to all.
juttafranz: Josue, real thanks for assisting. It is a great pleasure. Where will you be next Thursday?
josuecc: Carmona is in Miami.
carlzim: Glad to provide URL's
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay folks. Carl: thanks for being our third Musketeer, Josué: thanks for joining in from Miami (home sweet
home to Carmona - but they nullified his visa now), and Stella thanks for dropping in, too.
juttafranz: Carl, lovely greetings to Fran -- thanks for the invaluable information of your postings.
juttafranz: You all go and visit: http://www.franz-lee.org , please.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, keep your information coming. I'll respond selectively, and with delay of time due to loads of offline activities
these days and weeks.
juttafranz: Bye!
carlzim: Thanks to all for your insightful contributions
juttafranz: Stella, thanks too.
carlzim: Bye.
josuecc: I will be next Thursday in Miami.
josuecc: Thanks.
josuecc: Bye.
juttafranz: Bye!! I'll send the manuscript off just now.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Carl. Josué, please tune in next Thursday and let us know how things continue over there.
juttafranz: Bye!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay Franz. Bye all.

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