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SAYING: HI!

carlzim: Hi, Jutta.
carlzim: Here's Franz and Josue?
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your latest mail, entitled "what really happened on 9/11"
- incredible how our own analysis corresponded with what is going to be published now, don't you think?
jutta_schmitt2002: Hi, Iris and Stella.
carlzim: Yep, Jutta
missnaranjahit: Hi all, Jutta, Franz, Carl.
carlzim: Hi, Stella
juttafranz: Hi! Everybody!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Shall we wait until Josué and Scott join in, or shall we begin right away, Franz?
juttafranz: They'll come in 20 minutes, we'll begin.
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay.
missnaranjahit: Ok. Let's wait.
juttafranz: They said that we should not wait -- Josue went to eat, Scott has some "diligencia".
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please begin, Franz.
juttafranz:
As usual I have an interesting introduction for you all -- be patient for 15
minutes.
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Fine with us, Franz. Please proceed.

juttafranz: Let me know when you all are ready!

missnaranjahit: Ready.

juttafranz: Folks, when we, with trialogical target-precision say it, nobody "believes" us,
nobody quotes us, but the dust of the crumbling Twin Towers did not subside
as yet, when we said it all -- now, Q.E.D.: " 'THE BIG LIE': The French have
already lapped up Meyssan's theory that a military faction in the U.S.
government used remote controls to guide two aircraft into the twin towers and
that a U.S. missile -- not an American Airlines jet -- smashed into the
Pentagon." Still saying: Bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda did it!? Oh, ye generation of
vipers, of liars, of blairs of vipers!

juttafranz: How do you like that?

jutta_schmitt2002: Impressive, Franz!

jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry - Carl, are you there?

jutta_schmitt2002: He's back.

juttafranz: Carl, did you read my first posting?

jutta_schmitt2002: Did you still get Franz' first posting, Carl?

carlzim: Hi, all. Thanks .

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, please repost for Carl.

carlzim: Franz, please repeat your posting .

juttafranz: Folks, when we, with trialogical target-precision say it,
nobody "believes" us, nobody quotes us, but the dust of the
crumbling Twin Towers did not subside as yet, when we said it all
-- now, Q.E.D.: " 'THE BIG LIE': The French have already
lapped up Meyssan's theory that a military faction in the U.S.
government used remote controls to guide two aircraft into the twin
towers and that a U.S. missile -- not an American Airlines jet --
smashed into the Pentagon." Still saying: Bin Laden and his
Al-Qaeda did it!? Oh, ye generation of vipers, of liars, of (b)lairs of vipers!

carlzim: Thanks, Jutta .

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome, Carl.

carlzim: Yep, Franz .

jutta_schmitt2002: Most impressive, Franz, as I said above.

juttafranz:
Coming to our topic today: in which case does a president or a state get into
the terrorist machinery of Big Brother, Corporate America? What are the
democratic qualifications?

"Chavez, a charismatic populist who favours leftist rhetoric, won
the presidency in a 1998 landslide. He has frustrated Washington
by befriending the leaders of Cuba, Iran, and Iraq, by criticizing
the war in Afghanistan, and by favouring increases in international
oil prices. Venezuela is the third-largest oil exporter to the
United States."

jutta_schmitt2002: (And who decides, who is a "charismatic populist"?!)

juttafranz: Continuing ....

jutta_schmitt2002: A "populist" does not even intend to keep his/her
electoral promises, and Chávez has been trying hard by all means.

juttafranz:
Certainly, except the factors that have to be excepted, Venezuela, Liberia,
Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc., all qualify for these democratic just measures. Now,
for what do "National Endowment for Democracy" organizations serve in the
domestic and foreign policies? What do they strengthen, for example, in the
democratic State, Venezuela?

"The endowment, founded in 1983 during the Cold War, is a
private, nonprofit institution that receives almost all of its annual
$33 million budget from the US Congress. Its purpose is to
strengthen democracy worldwide, but critics have accused it of
acting as an extension of US foreign policy."
jutta_schmitt2002: (Again, question: who decides, what is "democracy"?
- Surely not the people, the voters, see the Florida elections
and the Supreme Court decision that brought Bush into power!)

juttafranz: Well, we'll see, Jutta!

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, proceed, Franz.

juttafranz:

Not only is US "foreign policy" the extension of "domestic policy", even
national so-called "nonprofit organizations" are the logical terrorist intention of
official global policy. Even religious "nonprofit" organizations, like Corpus Dei,
all participated in the democratic weakening of the Chavez government; they
forgot to chase Bush and Chavez out of the "Temple", instead, more and more,
they adore the root of all "absolute evil" (Chirac), Money from the Tax-Payer!
They themselves take "a small piecy", and the rest goes to the "Capital of All
Global Terrorists", to where "the loser takes it all", to Miami, where scoundrels
like Estanga usually get the keys of the City, of its Banks!
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Excellently formulated, Franz.

carlzim: Well said, Franz .

jutta_schmitt2002: Please continue.

juttafranz: That statesmen and their hankies are generally downright liars, -- in any case,
their profession is to sow horror and terror, to be liars and to be corrupt -- this
even the morons know:

"Neither the endowment nor the AFL-CIO's labour solidarity centre
responded to repeated requests for interviews. In April, an
endowment official told the Times that none of its money had
gone to support the coup."

missnaranjahit: We are listening.

juttafranz: OK, Stella & Iris, today you are double: Stellairis! But, don't "double-think", please!

jutta_schmitt2002: They can spare themselves the interviews anyway, Franz.
"Of course", nobody has ever financed, supported and encouraged or even
thought of financing, supporting and encouragin a coup in Venezuela. They're all innocent.

juttafranz: Correctly so, Jutta.
Who would believe a professional liar, like Nixon or Clinton, when (s)he says: "I
didn't do it!"; a liar simply cannot tell the truth; once a liar, always a liar; but
the world would believe Bin Laden, Castro, Saddam or Chavez, when they
should utter: "I am a terrorist!" or "I blew the Twin Towers to blazes!" They
belong to the few truthful devils on Mother Earth!! The world is not only crazy,
it is mentally sick.

jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Franz. Fully agreed.

juttafranz:
Well, look at this: The International Republican Institute, which has an office in
Caracas and is an arm of the US Republican Party, has received a "grant from
the National Endowment for Democracy, (that) grew from $50,000 in 2000, to
promote youth participation in politics, to $339,998 last year for political party
building." It seems that the Bush Government Republicans, using their "Office
of Transition" in the American Embassy here, are already training their future
Republican candidate in Caracas, Alfredo Pena, as future Local Mayor of the
Global United States.
 

jutta_schmitt2002: On "political party building": "Primero Justicia" is an offspring
of this kind of "creatio ex extranjero", Franz and all.
Even the name of this newly founded party in Venezuela (just about 2 years old),
is suspicious: it reminds of "Justicia Infinita".

juttafranz: Yes, that's it!

As I said elsewhere, the inherent, fascist quintessence of globalization,
that is, of US home-made Horror, Terror, Racism, Discrimination and Apartheid,
can be identified in its domestic and foreign policies; and then, to crown it all,
still its arrogant cynicism, by looking for "terrorists" abroad, for all kinds of
Twin Tower Human Suicide Bombers, while Corporate America itself -- together
with its European allies -- is the fertile, breeding (b)lair of black mamba
serpents!

juttafranz:
In the investigations the recent, brutal, racist, fascist killings of Fort Bragg,
North Carolina, "police found fascist and white supremacist literature in the
soldiers' homes. Other members of their unit, the 82nd Airborne, said the
killers' racist views were well known and one of them had displayed a Nazi flag
over his bed in the barracks." Furthermore, "Republican members of Congress
maintain intimate ties with the most right-wing organizations, giving their
fascistic views a veneer of respectability." Well, there's the "missing link"
between current US domestic and foreign policy. So, who blew up the Twin
Towers and the Pentagon? And, especially, why?

jutta_schmitt2002: We're trying to invite Josué.

jutta_schmitt2002: Too many invites, hang on.

jutta_schmitt2002: He's in.

josuecc: Hi .

juttafranz: I repeat the posting for Josue!

josuecc: Hi, all .

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Josué. Welcome to the conference.

missnaranjahit: Hi Josué.

juttafranz:
In the investigations the recent, brutal, racist, fascist killings of Fort Bragg,
North Carolina, "police found fascist and white supremacist literature in the
soldiers' homes. Other members of their unit, the 82nd Airborne, said the
killers' racist views were well known and one of them had displayed a Nazi flag
over his bed in the barracks." Furthermore, "Republican members of Congress
maintain intimate ties with the most right-wing organizations, giving their
fascistic views a veneer of respectability." Well, there's the "missing link"
between current US domestic and foreign policy. So, who blew up the Twin
Towers and the Pentagon? And, especially, why?

juttafranz:
Are not progressively fascism, nazism, racism and racial politics becoming
increasingly the global stock-in-trade of both big business parties in the USA,
and of their henchmen abroad? Are they not aimed at the latest version of
scape-goatism, at terrorist "divide et impera", not aimed at diverting social
tensions created by the huge gulf between the corporate play-mate haves and
the prostrate, castrate have-nots into global holocausts between peoples of
different historic modes of production? Is this not what US domestic
"patriotism" and foreign "diatribes" nurture?

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, a mixture of lies, deceit, "patriotic attitude"
and racist-fascist mentality is all it takes in order to "survive" in
the New World Order.

juttafranz:

And, is US foreign policy not "Black Gold" Policy, in the Mideast, in Latin
America, on the Balkan, in Africa? Concerning the latter, does the threat of
all-out "US-Euro-Arab" War not spur the grab of West African Oil? In States
where there are or are suspected to be rich oil fields, in Nigeria, Algeria, Libya,
Egypt and Angola, Gabon, Republic of Congo (Brazzaville), Equatorial Guinea,
Liberia, Cameroon, Tunisia, Chad, and other African countries?
juttafranz: That's the only thing for which Africa is still "good"!

jutta_schmitt2002: Surely so, Franz. Always "follow the oil" in order to understand the "conflicts".

juttafranz:

We know that:

"Africa contains 7.2 percent of the
world’s proven reserves of oil—76.7 thousand million
barrels—more than the proven reserves of North America
or the former Soviet Union. The area of sub-Saharan
Africa, and particularly the Gulf of Guinea, has seen a big
increase in oil exploration and production in recent years,
and is now attracting the attentions of all the major oil
companies."

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl overboard.

juttafranz:
For example, look at the geopolitical, energetic, strategic relevance of Nigeria
for the USA and Europe; like Venezuela, it is the only West African country
belonging to the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC):

"Nigeria is the world’s sixth-largest exporter of oil and the
fifth-largest supplier to the US. Its oil production was
2.15 million barrels per day in 2001, and this is expected
to increase to 3.2 million barrels per day by 2010. Bonny
Light crude from Nigeria has low-sulphur content, and is
easily converted into gasoline."
 

JUTTA AND FRANZ BOMBED OUT OF YAHOO CYBER-SPACE
 

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, we will invite your friend.

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: I sent the invitiation.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hola amigo Jesús.

missnaranjahit: We are here.

jutta_schmitt2002: I can read you, Stellairis.

juttafranz: OK, I am back!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué, are you here? Carl?

josuecc: Yes, i'm here .

gocho24: Thanks for the invitation.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Franz. Let us continue with the conference.

juttafranz: This was my last posting:
For example, look at the geopolitical, energetic, strategic relevance of Nigeria
for the USA and Europe; like Venezuela, it is the only West African country
belonging to the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC):

"Nigeria is the world’s sixth-largest exporter of oil and the
fifth-largest supplier to the US. Its oil production was
2.15 million barrels per day in 2001, and this is expected
to increase to 3.2 million barrels per day by 2010. Bonny
Light crude from Nigeria has low-sulphur content, and is
easily converted into gasoline."

carlzim: Great, folks.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome, Jesús.

missnaranjahit: Franz can you choose bold an bigger letters please?

carlzim: Great, folks.

juttafranz:

Finally, concerning US global disinformation and foreign policy, the above is
enough to reflect why Chavez, Hussein, Khadafi, Charles Taylor or Mugabe are
all demonized as "terrorists", and why most of us believe in the god mother or
god fairy institutions of national democratic endowment; also why these fascist
and racist ideas permanently haunt our thoughts and writings, and endow us
with all sorts of ideological affirmations of the new world fascist order.
Thanks, folks!!

END OF INTRODUCTION
 

carlzim: Who is gocho24?

juttafranz: So, now the debate could ensue!!

juttafranz: Please save what you can, Yahoo runs wild!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, gocho24 is Jesús, a friend of Josué's.

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your introduction, Franz. Let's begin the debate.

missnaranjahit: Hi Jesús.

gocho24: Nice meeting you, Carl.

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús - we are Franz and Jutta from Mérida, Venezuela,
Carl from New York, Iris and Stella from Mainz, Germany. Josué has fallen offline!

carlzim: Hi, Jesus.

carlzim: Folks, note these online comments on CNN's "Al Qaeda's gassed dog video:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/dog.html

WAG THE GASSED DOG

missnaranjahit: We saved the Chat Franz.

gocho24: I'm venezuelan, curreently in Miami .

jutta_schmitt2002: Nice to meet you, Jesús.

carlzim: Do you like Miami, Jesus?

carlzim:
08/19/02 "WAG THE GASSED DOG" This is the purest war propaganda. One video
of what may be Osama bin Laden plus a video of a dog being gassed which
could have been created anywhere equals the US sinking to new lows trying
to manufacture support for a war nobody but the oil companies want. This
dog-video reminds me of Hill & Knowlton's much ballyhooed claim that Iraqi
troops were stealing incubators from Kuwait hospitals and leaving premature
babies to die on the floor.

gocho24: Yeah.. I had a bit of an argument with an american (my GF, no leess)
about the gassing of dogs in Afghanistan..... does that
make them more inhumane than transnational companies experimenting with animals?
Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has joined the conference.
gocho24: It's easy to manipulate the american public with such propaganda

carlzim: That was a hoax to sell a war. And until proven
otherwise, the safest course is to assume this latest "shock video" is just
another hoax by the public relations firms which grow rich and fat off of
your tax dollars by lying to you for the US Government. Anonymous US
officials have declared this to be "unquestionable" evidence that al Qaeda
has chemical weapons.

carlzim: Agreed, Jesys .

juttafranz: Gocho, CAP, add us to your Buddy List, please! By clicking on our
names above, then "Add A Friend".

carlzim: Agreed, Jesus.

gocho24: Ok .

carlzim:
I find it very questionable. For one thing, compare
the quality of the dog video with that of the famous Osama "confession"
tape or even the most recent Osama tape. Why does a dog get much better
video quality than the boss? Add to that the cuteness of the dog, as if
intentionally selected by central casting to provoke the greatest feelings
of sympathy in the viewer, instead of just grabbing any old mangy stray
mongrel to use in such a test.

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús, not only the American Public. Often enough, also the
Europeans, the Latin Americans and people elsewhere.

carlzim: Yes, this video is shocking, but the shock
is intended to shock people past questioning the claims of where the video
came from. All day long the media has been blasting the "Arabs kill puppy
dogs" story all over the airwaves, trying to create a linkage between Arabs
and chemical weapons where none can be proven to factually exist. Given the
sensitization to chemical weapons contained in this media barrage, I have
to wonder if the next stage provocation, intended to further the war
against Iraq, will also involve chemical weapons.
 

juttafranz: Gocho, for our reference, what is your real name, and city, for
the publication of our chats on the web?

carlzim: COMMENT FROM A READER

As well as the cuteness and the video quality, the dog is not
malnourished and its coat seems to be in very good condition.
Stray dogs in Canada don't look that good, or as well fed.
Imagine how stray dogs in Afghanistan look where people don't
even get fed.

carlzim: That's it.

juttafranz: Excellent, Carl.

gocho24: In a country where media is manipulated by the highest
levels of government (Does hollywood expect us to believe that the
War in Somalia was only to "feed the poor" like it was shown in "Black
Hawk Down" or does it make sense to assume Somalia was
way too important given the strategic geograhpical situation?)

jutta_schmitt2002: The problem: it seems the whole, brainwashed (American)
world cares more about a dog gassed by Arabs than
thousands of innocent civilians massacred in Afghanistan and elsewhere
on the planet on behalf of big coporate and energy interest.

carlzim: All BS, Jesus.

gocho24: It's all the "Wag the Dog" policy at work.

juttafranz: Gocho, for me to read better, please choose BOLD!

jutta_schmitt2002: Agreed, Jesús.

carlzim: Well said, Franz.

gocho24: By the way: Jesus Mogollon is my name, from Venezuela ... 27 years of age .

juttafranz: CITY!

gocho24: Jutta: Sure .

gocho24: Miami....

gocho24: Originally from Valera, Venezuela

juttafranz: Ok!

jutta_schmitt2002: And that is thanks to an incessant propaganda and
brainwash activity via the big mass media. We feel sick here in
Venezuela everyday we switch TV on and see the bunch of lies and
diffamation that is being spread against the government across
the four corners of the country.

juttafranz: Well, Miami, the "Capital of Golpistas", is OK for your identification!

juttafranz: Did you get the Key of the City already?

gocho24: hahahahahahaha

gocho24: No such thing .

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús - beware of Miami's "city keys"!

gocho24: As a matter of fact, politics and foreing policy is a hobbie of mine...
I'm an engineer.

juttafranz: Well, do not engineer any military coups here, that never exist!

gocho24: If there's only one city key, then Carmona already beat me to it .

jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry you came late for the city key, Jesús ))

juttafranz: Getting back to our discussion; what do you all think about
the relation of US domestic policy and "foreign", alien policy?

juttafranz: What does the Venezuelan paradigm demonstrate?

gocho24: Well.... being in the "Home of the Brave, Land of the free"
(sarcasm) gives me some perpestive as to how the US foriegn
policy is perceived both inside (Nobody knows what Foreign politics is,
in fact.. the world starts in Miami and ends in Seattle) and
outside (Not very favorably)

juttafranz: What about Iraq, the "Sarajewo" of the New World War IV.
Did anybody miss out on the Third one?

jutta_schmitt2002: This paradigm teaches us, that what they call "democracy",
the very moment it is taken serious, has no chance of
life. And, the other way round, corporate dictatorship by all means is sold as
the "real" democracy that is being propagated and
forced upon what is left of "sovereign" countries.

juttafranz: "Nobody knows" that's a key point, Jesus!!!

gocho24: The US gives its own public a masquarade of being the most
"just" of nations, while at the same time stomping on
everyone's business.... when I talk to americans I direct them to Ammnisty
International's website and search for "Human Right Violations" .

jutta_schmitt2002: "Foreign policy" in the globalized world may well be
qualified as US domestic policy, Jesús.

carlzim: Message from a German contact on his experience with Hekmatyar
(Kaizar's rival) affair in Afghanistan:

"Do you understand, your abilty to light a candle that is in fact, a
rocket? Hekmatyar?

The man was an idiot...This man, recieved payment from not only the KGB,
but also as a counter intelligence agent, from your CIA, and as a topper,
he even took payment of our money, perhaps though, not so stupid.

gocho24: Jutta: Agreed!

carlzim: The man had not a balls worth of courage. (American slang I learnt) he
worried about every thing.

Because of this idiot, I was recalled to Pretoria Africa. As a case
officer for Mr. (Herr) Majrooh. He was supposed to have the most available
information of the then of the current nature of the Afghan conflict. Both
were a little stupid.
 

juttafranz: In what age, do these Americans live, Jesus? I thought that Venezuela
is trying to leave the Middle Ages. But the USA? The "masses"?

carlzim: Their majour scheme, was to, how better export to a better more profitable
market of herion.

For this, I was recalled to Pretoria?

My personal opinion of this man is very low, to be nice.
 

carlzim: http://www.afghanhero.com/afghanan/biographies/hekmatyar.htm

Oh,yes, the man is still alive."
 

gocho24: Americans are oblivious to the world around them... they are the
pinacle of civilization and, as such, can disregard the rest of the world as barbarians.

carlzim: That's it .

juttafranz: Horrible, Carl.

gocho24: Or, in more modern terms, the Axis of Evil .

carlzim: Afghan=Dirty war

gocho24: Afghanistan will be no more than the excuse politicians
will use to deter attention from their Lewinkys ...

gocho24: that's why now the US can topple Saddam... because they don't need
another smoke screen, having Afghanistan ...

gocho24: and, of course, without Saddam they will easily flood the oil markets  ...

gocho24: and force oil prices down.

juttafranz: The higher you are, Jesus, the "greater" you are, the harder you fall.
And what a fall will that be, my country(wo)men!! A simple, physical law!!

gocho24: Jutta: I just don't see that fall happening soon enough.

gocho24: We are leaving the Pax Americana.

gocho24: Living I meant to say .

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, Jesús and Josué: only two days ago, a group of young
Americans who are in solidarity with president Chavez, his government and the
efforts of designing a new political and economic process that favours the
lower classes, were invited for an interview in Venezolana de Televisión.
It was actually the first time ever that I heard a categoric critique of Americans of their
own government and the current "war on terrorism". Do you, personally, know
Americans with a critical and negating approacht towards their present government?

juttafranz: And, Jesus, what do they think in Miami about "the loser takes it all",
and about the disappearance of the Twin Towers into oblivion?

gocho24: Jutta: There's no such a thing as an american who opposses their
government ... Ignorance and Patriotism is a dangerous mix .

gocho24: The american public has a very simplistic view of what happened.

carlzim: We oppose some policies.

juttafranz: Well, Jesus, there are a few exceptions; however, in all probability,
they are no "Americans" anymore.

gocho24: "Why do they hate us when all we do is help them?"

carlzim: We need to fight real enemies.

jutta_schmitt2002: Wow. Those four American fellows (three were children of
South American and one of Eastern European immigrants) seem to have been
an honourable exception to the rule, Jesús.

gocho24: Jutta: I'm talking about americans in the US... sorry for not making myself clear
gocho24: and sorry for generalizing, I'm talking about the vast majority of americans.

juttafranz: Help is Killing, Peace is War! Democracy is Slavery! Jesus.

gocho24: They see what happened and an injustice made against the most "just"
country in the world.

jutta_schmitt2002: No problem, Jesús. -- For your info: "juttafranz" is Franz,
"jutta_schmitt2002" is me.

gocho24: Anything said agiants their goverment falls short of anti-patriotism.

Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Hi All!

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Scott.

juttafranz: Hi, Scott!!

carlzim: Regarding Iraq, I recommend that USA use this strategy for Iraq situation:
Untie CIA's hands, and develop a strong pro-Western Iraqi opposition
that will overthrow Saddam internally, and dismantle his facilities for
producing weapons of mass destruction. Conduct all behind the scenes to
avoid revealing Europe's cooperation with Saddam in this development, and
thus get Europe's support. Don't enforce democracy in Iraq, as regimes in
other Mideast Arab countries, e.g., Saudi Arabia expect democracy in Iraq
to spread and topple them.

missnaranjahit: Hi Scott.

josuecc: hi! Scott .

carlzim: Hola, Scott .

carlzim: Regarding Iraq, I recommend that USA use this strategy for Iraq situation:
Untie CIA's hands, and develop a strong pro-Western Iraqi opposition
that will overthrow Saddam internally, and dismantle his facilities for
producing weapons of mass destruction. Conduct all behind the scenes to
avoid revealing Europe's cooperation with Saddam in this development, and
thus get Europe's support. Don't enforce democracy in Iraq, as regimes in
other Mideast Arab countries, e.g., Saudi Arabia expect democracy in Iraq
to spread and topple them.

josuecc: I'm the Scott Schneider Substitute.

josuecc: In Florida .

jutta_schmitt2002: Hahahha, Josué! )

gocho24: Cart: Hard to do when the US Government is talking loudly about it
without consulting NATO and Russia

juttafranz: Scott, all the Pandemonium Crew is emigrating to Miami, why?
Did you give them the keys of the city?

juttafranz: Well, we even have a SSS in Miami,

nonpositivism: no, Josue, you are your own man! Tú Solamente es tú, Yo soy
yo...más filosofía más tarde!

carlzim: I'm the Scott Schneider substitute in Teaneck, New Jersey-near New York City.

jutta_schmitt2002: So, Jesús, any critique of the official government policies - domestic and
"foreign" - is equivalent to "unpatriotic attitude" and suspicious per se?!

josuecc: Ok, Scott, Jutta's idea.

juttafranz: And, I am the Galactic "Scott Schneider Theorem"!

jutta_schmitt2002: The question is: is there a substitue for Scott Schneider?

gocho24: Jutta: Oh yes!

gocho24: Jutta: VERY much so...

carlzim: Jesus, USA is consulting Russia and NATO, but may ignore them .

gocho24: Jutta: The american public gave dictatorial powers to Bush in that regard .

nonpositivism: [very flattering. someone here must really like replication or cloning!]

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús, do you think that people, out of sheer fear, tune in into the
"patriotic attitude", although maybe "in private" they differ?

carlzim: In fact, USA=NATO

juttafranz: But, folks, back to US foreign policy, to its machinations.

gocho24: Jutta: Or as an analist put it here "Give me patriotism and I'll look the other way"

josuecc: USA=NATO=ONU=OEA

gocho24: Is that the real axis of evil, Josue?

carlzim: Agreed, Josue .

josuecc: yes .

juttafranz: What and who can still stop the coming global "new war"? Are Iraq and
Saudi Arabia next on the "hit-list"?

carlzim: They are, Franz. We want their oil!

gocho24: Iraq, most definately.... the political cost of hitting Saudi Arabia is too high
as the US can't risk an oil embargo like it endured in 1973 .

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: Do you think "the American public" is aware of that they
have given dictatorial powers to Bush? Do you think they know they have given
dictatorial powers to corporate America? Would not, under any formal "democratic"
circumstances - the ones they claim so much are missing elswhere on the planet -
the entire Bush government have had to step down after the Enron
Scandal, for instance? Did "the American public" cry out loud?

juttafranz: In fact, I should say: the raging "new war".

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - why do you say "we" want their oil? Are you corporate
America, too?

gocho24: Jutta: The american public is not aware of any political decision as
long as it feeds their patriotism .

gocho24: if I can invade Iraq, have a show with american marines singing
in Iraq and then make a movie about it, so be it!

carlzim: Jesus, USA does not fear Mideast oil embargo. It'll buy oil from Russia,
Venezuela, Mexico, Africa, etc.

juttafranz: What you are asking, Jutta, is whether the American electorate knows
that it has been 'back-bitten", and that by Supreme
Court decree, America has become the pioneer of future "permanent fascism".

gocho24: Cartzim: Sure.... but prices will skyrocket... and Russia does not agree
with an Iraqui invasion (as long as its oil companies aree not at stake) .

carlzim: In fact, in the 1973 oil embargo, Sheik Yamani grinned like a hyena on
TV and almost got killed by Carlos.

jutta_schmitt2002: Has there not been massive unemployment in the wake
of the world economic crisis hitting America, too? Have there not been
claims that what was left of social security is going down the drain? Is it
now all Bin Laden's fault? Can they now blame it all on the "war of civilizations",
on "the Arabs"? Are there some - or more than just some - decent voices of
dissent left?

carlzim: Russia will still sell oil to USA. They need the cash.

nonpositivism: Jutta, USA unemployment true level is about 10 - 12%, high
by our standards but not "massive", nowhere close to
depression levels or what much of the South and East typically experiences.

gocho24: Jutta: Unemployment has just hit 5.9% (High for the last 10-year period
in american economics) but still low compared to other countries (including
Europe and Japan) gocho24: Unemployment is not a concern just yet.

juttafranz: It's the fault of Bin laden, Castro, Hussein, Mugabe and Chavez,
even Franz, Jutta! Nobody else, don't you know?

gocho24: Now.... that the american public perceives the current economic
situation to Bin Laden, it's true..

nonpositivism: Jesus, this figure is a gross distortion. True unemployment
is about twice that. I can explain why under separate cover.
Either way, it's serious but not severe enough to overwhelm the economy.

juttafranz: Previously, it was the Communists and Marxists, now it is the "terrorists".

gocho24: That stupid Bin Laden surely bought his energy from Enron and has a
WorldCom Phone line .

jutta_schmitt2002: What about housing, social security, caring for the elderly,
education for the young, etc.?

carlzim: It could be the fault of Saudi royal family whose ar*es our Government
leaders consistently kiss on TV

gocho24: Housing is the only economic trend still growing, actually .

nonpositivism: I do not agree either that the American Public - journalists or
lay people are that dumb or naive. 9/11 did hurt industries such as airlines and
tourism badly, but most are aware the economy has structural and cyclical problems
which have nothing to do with Bin Laden. Nothing.

gocho24: even though rumors of its collapse have been going one for the last
couple of months .

juttafranz: Who cares really about them? And, if you should dare to do so, then
your fate will be a military coup! Chavez and Jesus, I mean Christ, are the
classical paradigms, Jutta.

gocho24: The American Public is all those Joe Sixpacks out there.

carlzim: Housing is growing in Eastern Europe especially Poland.

nonpositivism: In fact, the same circumstances 11 years ago were responsible
for Bush Sr's ouster from the Presidency. The war on terrorist Saddam Hussein
could not save Bush from gross economic failures.

juttafranz: "Could not" -- Can it save him in future, Scott?

jutta_schmitt2002: Maybe just enough of them are ignorant and happily falling
into the "blame it all on Bin Laden" trap. Maybe there
are just a handful of Scott Schneiders and Carl Zimmermans around, who knows?!

juttafranz: Handful, Jutta -- the two are unique!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry, no offense intended.

gocho24: Actual conversation during thanksgiving dinner last year
(Among US flags on the plates, on the chairs, on the turkey itself...)

jutta_schmitt2002: Of course, Carl and Scott are unique!

nonpositivism: Jutta, the American public can be somewhat passive but make
certain you digest this: Almost no one is stupid enough
here to believe our economic sluggishness is caused by Terror abroad.
Augmented somewhat, yes ...but Americans are more sophisticated than that.

gocho24: - I don't understand why they hate us! All we do is send them
food and all we get is this crap in return!

juttafranz: And the UFO's, Jesus, nobody came to get them -- no bogey-alien?

carlzim: Yugoslavia and Afghanistan are world's largest suppliers of  concrete
(at low cost) for building/housing production. Add concrete to NWO resource control list.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hahhahah, Jesús - US flags stuck into the very turkey?!
That's what I call true patriotism!

gocho24: Jutta: There were 2 little US flags on the Turkey's legs .

juttafranz: That's pavo, Jutta! Real pavo!!

gocho24: Jutta: And I was given a little US Flag Pin....

carlzim: Do they want Russian flags?

gocho24: They all sang "America the Beautiful"

juttafranz: Well, well, in exorcism, during the Inquisition, it was a cross, now it is the Flag!!

gocho24: and someone said "We should Bomb Medina and let them know we have
more bombs pointing to Mecca to show them who the boss is" .

nonpositivism: The real issue is that Americans like to "dump" their economic
and political residue on the rest of the world and concentrate on their isolated s
uburban bubble existence - the American dream. We also work harder than we
used to (70% of all marriages have two working spouses) and less energy than
ever for politics. Just enough left for Beer and TV - maybe Video Games.
and Internet stimulation. Today's Bread and Circuses.

carlzim: Who hates USA in Afghanistan? The women? The warlords?

juttafranz: Guys, be careful of those stars and stripes!!!

gocho24: BRB

carlzim: We can't Saudi Arabia control the American dream.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, then explain to me, why the US government is still
in office after the Enron Scandal. Explain to me, why the building of the Office
of Homeland Defence is in full swing. Explain to me, why
Americans swallow the cutting down of their famous
civil liberties. Why they would accept the existence of "ad hoc"
military courts in order to try and condemn anybody deemed to be a
"terrorist". Why does the American public not break out in loud protest that
the US government does not stick to the Kyoto agreements on environment
protection? Why it "unsubscribed" from the International Criminal Court?

juttafranz: Carl, the USA itself hates itself in Afghanistan, else it could never
have thrown so many bombs on Kabul, if this was not
self-hatred, an immense hatred of innocent humanity.

nonpositivism: Carl, good point. I don't think the Afghans as a people hate
Americans at all. Some factions have resented past
American military and diplomatic maneuvers there....but I'd venture
to guess there's no more animosity from them to us than vice-versa.

carlzim: Agreed, Scott .

juttafranz: By the way, folks, what is "hatred", and what is "wrath"? Hass? Zorn?

nonpositivism: Jutta, the answer is twofold: Ideology, and respect for Rule
of Law. American ideology believes strongly in advanced
capitalism, even its excesses. That's true among poor even more than
middle class. They're the ones against taxing Lottery Winnings!
and secondly:

juttafranz: There is a big difference between the two!!

juttafranz: Spanish: Ira? Odio?

nonpositivism: Americans are not inclined to violent or street agitation.
With rare exception, that is not in our heritage. We prefer the civil society and
Rule of Law.

carlzim: The Afghans screamed "Suarvi Maag, Maag, Maag (Death to the Soviet's)
in 1980's .

juttafranz: Rare exceptions? The Bragg gang?

carlzim: Suravi .

nonpositivism: Ironically Jutta by observing the values and polarized
excesses in the Afro-American community one can learn a great
deal about American values and how they transcend class. I can
discuss this with more now or offline some other time.
juttafranz: Scott, the non-violent military training for Kosovo, Vietnam, for Iraq?

carlzim: They don't use the same scream vs. USA .

juttafranz: Scott, come down to earth! Even the Noble Eagle must come
down to eat, to rest!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Does the rule of law nowadays allow any
"constitutional change" of the current course of things? Has there not
been a self-empowerment in place, under the "exceptional pressure"
post 9/11, that made Congress hurry through approving measures like
the "Patriot Act" without even being given enough time to thoroughly
study it? Who can turn the wheel back?

jutta_schmitt2002: Are Afro-Americans "half" Americans only? Or Americans
of "second class"?

jutta_schmitt2002: (I did not fully understand your statement on Afro-Americans,
Scott. Please explain.)

carlzim: Regarding racism, note these lyrics of a song sung by American folksinger
Pet Seeger about USA racist Senator Bilb in
1940's:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JimCapaldi/listenbilbo.htm
LISTEN, MISTER BILBO

Listen, Mr. Bilbo, listen to me
I'll give you a lesson in history.
Listen and I'll show you that the foreigners you hate
Are the very same people made America great.

juttafranz: The US constitution is man-made; those who made it in their own ruling
class interests, can change it at whim and caprice,
whenever they please, Jutta. Even the Pope can change the
"Ten Commandments" -- for example, Thou shallt pay your taxes, so that
we could finance the Republican Endowment Institute for Democracy in Caracas!

carlzim: In 1492 just to see what he could see,
Columbus, an Italian, looked out across the sea.
He said, Isabella babe, the world is round,
And the U.S.A.'s just a-waiting to be found.

In 1609 on a bright summer's day,
The Half Moon set anchor in old New York Bay.
Henry Hudson, a Dutchman, took a good look around;
He said, "Boys, this is gonna be a helluva town."
 

carlzim:
When the King of England started pushing Yankees around,
We had a little trouble up in Boston town.
There was a brave Negro, Crispus Attucks was the man;
Was the first one to fall when the fighting began.

Colin Kelly was a pilot flying down low;
Levine pushed the button that let the bomb go.
They sunk the Haruna to the bottom of the sea;
It was foreigners like those kept America free.

carlzim:
Now Bilbo, you're taking one heck of a chance;
Your good friends, the Duponts, came over from France.
Another thing, I'm sure, will be news to you,
The first Mister Bilbo was a foreigner, too.

Well, you don't like Negroes, you don't like Jews;
If there is anyone you do like, it sure is news.
You don't like Poles, Italians, Catholics, too;
Is it any wonder, Bilbo, that we don't like you!
carlzim: That's it.

juttafranz: Carl, Those were the days, my firends;

juttafranz: We thought that they would never end!

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - excellent poem. The Pandemonium Crew goes poetic.

carlzim: Yep, Franz. We thought they'd never end. They didn't .

carlzim: Yep, Jutta

josuecc: Trialogical poem

juttafranz: Yeah!!

carlzim: Agreed, Josue .

jutta_schmitt2002: Hahahaa, Franz. I like your statement about the Pope
"updating" the Ten Commandments. )

juttafranz: Scott, Each according to his/her poetic abilities!!

juttafranz: Yes, that's what most patriots forget!

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué says Jesús had to attend a live conference.
But Josué is still here in the virtual conference. Not so, Josué?

jutta_schmitt2002: Stellairis - still around?

josuecc: yeah

missnaranjahit: Yes, we are around.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué - anything "new" about Venezuela over there?
What are the rumours, what are the comments?

juttafranz: The very US constitution --  like Estanga, the US puppet, did with
the Venezuelan version -- can be sent into oblivion, by
just a stroke of the pen, if Orwellian Globalization deems it necessary!
And in historic terms that will be sooner than we can say: God
Bless America!!

juttafranz: This patriots cannot see, cannot believe, yet, they believe in "aliens".

juttafranz: Iris & Stella,still there?

missnaranjahit: Yes Franz, we are here.

juttafranz: Have you become awe-stricken??

juttafranz: So, where are we heading from here?

jutta_schmitt2002: Yes Franz, we have been witnesses to something
alike here in Venezuela. The worst I have seen so far in my life.
A stroke of the pen sent the Constitution to hell and set an incredible
witch hunt loose, that swept all the democratically elected
leaders on the regional levels out of their positions. By a stroke of the
pen, governor Florencio Porras was torn out of the local
government palace here in Mérida, beaten, and taken prisoner.
And today the Supreme Court says, there was no coup d'etat, but a
"lack of power"!

juttafranz: Ah! Jutta reples ....

josuecc: rumors and comments, very much!!!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: The golpistas were beating and hunting the heck
out of everybody supporting the democratically elected
government. "Lack of power" - that's what the golpistas had in the first place!

juttafranz: Probably the American patriots will beget Mars babies when that
happens to their beloved constitution, and yet, it has
happened already, right under their nose -- just wait a little while crocodile,
see you later, alligator!!  It's really fascinating to see, how ideological
straw is drilled into the electoral imagination.

josuecc: a new coup d'etat

jutta_schmitt2002: That's what CAP says, in El País.

josuecc: a new far: chavistas vs. antichavistas

carlzim: a new coup=non-coup

josuecc: CAP, el gocho pal 88!!!! jajajajajaja

josuecc: el gocho pal 2008!!!! jajajajajaja CAP/no-CAP=Chavez

jutta_schmitt2002: And they are trying hard to build up the tensions so that finally
they may have their civil war here in Venezuela, and call for "international help".
When it's all over, they will say, that "democracy" (= the golpistas) has finally won
the battle in Venezuela.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué ))

josuecc: what do you think prof. Franz?

juttafranz: As I said in my introduction, the Transition Office in the US Caracas
Embassy, together with the Republican endowments
are already training Alfredo Pena as new Alcalde Mayor for the Venezuelan
province of the Global United States -- it's constitution is
already drawn up by Orwell's Ministry of Love - The Pentagon & its Aliens.

jutta_schmitt2002: Many Venezuelan's actually would not mind to see Carlos
Andrés Pérez not only back in the country, but back in
the presidency, Josué. Sweet memories of his first term in office perhaps
are the accelerators of such strange dreams.

gocho24: "Venezuelan Province" ... won't happen.... the US will never be
as the Romans that gave people the choice to be a citizen
of the empire.

juttafranz: Folks, we have to attend to some urgent matters now --
I really enjoyed the chat tremendously.

jutta_schmitt2002: Good point, Jesús!!!

gocho24: I wouldn't mind seeing Chavez out of office, though

juttafranz: What I could save, I'll send to Stella for checking, revision and correction.

gocho24: He talks too much and does too little .

juttafranz: Kindly send all your "fragments" to me and to her.

gocho24: Friends (Allow me to call you that)

jutta_schmitt2002: Chávez out of office would most probably equal "el proceso"
out of office, Jesús. No one may be able to
"substitute" Chávez for now. --- It's been a pleasure, as always. See you next time, friends.

juttafranz: Stella, Yahoo omits some postings, check that all parts are in the final
manuscript, especially those of Scott.

nonpositivism: Franz, your comments about the USA Constitution
back there are laughable but miss the mark. To see it as a tool of
Upper Class or Bourgeois interests is as historically inaccurate as it
is irrelevant. Everyone in America loves the Constitution and Bill
of Rights, which did by the way originate in some of the most radical
thinking and populism ever to come out of Europe and The Americas.

gocho24: I very much enjoy these conversations.... I will join you everytime I can.

gocho24: See ya next time!

missnaranjahit: Ok Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: We are looking forward to your participation, Jesús.
Nice meeting you.

gocho24: Nice meeting you!

juttafranz: Scott, how you wish that it misses the mark -- but, do you
really believe that Caesar Bush will never cross the Rubicon? Is
he your guardian saint?

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all and until next Thursday, same time.

missnaranjahit: Bye all!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Stellairis. Thanks for joining.

nonpositivism: The problem with the USA is not the Constitution nor its inflexibility,
but rather how the USA Govt. and Corporations
have become more and more extra-Constitutional entities....this
has been a slow process evolving for 150 years.

carlzim: Bye, Stella. Glad you joined chat today.

josuecc: Bye all .

juttafranz: He double-crosses the lives of thousands of innocent,
by massacring them. What is a piece of paper worth, when there is a
galaxy of giga-profits to gain?

nonpositivism: Bye Bye Stella. Thanks for all.

carlzim: Folks, at least you don't live in Russia where drinking too much Vodka
where most problems.
Russia: Press Digest - Aug 22
 

MOSCOW - The following are some of the leading
stories in Russia's newspapers on Thursday. Reuters has
not verified these stories and does not vouch for their
accuracy.

IZVESTIA

- A day of mourning is being observed in Russia on
Thursday to pay homage to the 115 Russian servicemen
killed in a helicopter crash in Chechnya.

carlzim: - A gas leak caused an explosion in a Moscow apartment
block which killed at least eight people.

- Liberal parliamentary deputy Vladimir Golovlyov was
shot dead on Wednesday morning while out walking his
dog.

- President Putin is leaving Moscow on Thursday on a
vist to Russia's Far East.

jutta_schmitt2002: Can we take up from here next Thursday, please?
Too important things to just let them fall under the carpet,
Franz, Carl and Scott.

juttafranz: Well, folks, it seems to me that I have set the US constitutional
prairie on fire!!

nonpositivism: It's not a matter of wish, Franz. It's a matter of fact.
USA Constitutional history is not the history of Big Business,
Bureaucrats, Fascists or Aristocrats much as you may want to believe in that myth.

carlzim: MOSKOVSKY KOMSOMOLETS
- Russia's YUKOS is to buy a controlling
- People have become used to frequent terrorist attacks
and refuse to believe that a leak of gas could have caused
a blast in a Moscow apartment block.

- The North Caucasus is waiting for another full-scale
war, the paper says, commenting on the possible aftermath
of Monday's deadly helicopter crash

juttafranz: Who would like to introduce the next chat?

nonpositivism: Carl, do you have any friends or contacts living in Russia whom
you have met personally?

juttafranz: Topic: The US Constitution is Eternal, Infinite, Indestructable!!!

carlzim: - China has allowed Russia's three leading aviation
carriers - East Line, Aeroflot and Volgo-Dnepr - to carry
out cargo transportations to and from its territory.

nonpositivism: I won't introduce it, rather why don't you let 3 eminent Thinkers do so:

jutta_schmitt2002: We can take up that topic. Scott - would you have the time and
interest to pick up from here next Thursday?

nonpositivism: Charles Beard, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

carlzim: Franz, I have online contacts living in Russia & Eastern Europe.
I don't know anyone living there personally .

juttafranz: Where are the Ancient Indian, Egyptian, Sumerian, Roman Catholic,
Soviet Constitutions now? Why is the American one
so exceptional? Where is the 300 year-ols, white, fascist apartheid now?

carlzim: Scott, I have online contacts...

juttafranz: Scott, am I not eminent enough?

josuecc: The next Thursday i'm connect to Mexico City .

jutta_schmitt2002: What about the Venezuelan Constitution? It is certainly an
eminent one, too!

nonpositivism: Charles Beard by the way was a Socialist who wrote an
immensely important historical critique in 1913 known as "An
Economic Interpretation of the Constitution". James Madison was the primary
author of the Constitution. Jefferson wrote the
Declaration of Independence and embodies the spirit of the Bill of Rights,
particularly separation of Church and State. Let their
historic comments frame the intro. It's all the "raw" material you need to
set the Merida Monasteries ablaze with the fire of intellectual
cross-examination!

juttafranz: Or do you want that Their Eminences tell me Nancy Stories,
for example, that Bin Laden and his "Al-Qaeda" all alone
blew the Towers to blazes? I don't care a dime, not a tripence about such eminences!

carlzim: What happened to the Soviet Constitution? I'll compare it with the
present Russian Constitution .

juttafranz: What is the qualification for eminence? To say: Long Live the
American Constitution?

nonpositivism: Franz: good point before. America is the only constitutional
Republic which has lasted as long as it has throughout
history - and the only nation around operating as a continuous Republic for
even more than 60 years.

juttafranz: Well, that could change. That's all I am saying eminently.

nonpositivism: What cannot be ignored is the genius of Madison, Hamilton,
Adams, Jay etc. in crafting a recipe for a strong and
stable Republic with some democratic forms. We are not a vibrant
democracy. And - this one is for Franz - that is one of the secrets
of our stability. For some this is obviously a negative stability.

juttafranz: There is no absolute guarantee for anything, least for
constitutions, made by men -- and not exactly by the poor dregs of
the world, held in stark ignorance.

nonpositivism: Carl and Jutta, I think bringing in other Constitutions
for comparative discussion is a GREAT idea! We should do
maybe one from the Bonaparte Democracies like Italy or France,
the USA, the Venezuelan, Soviet or Russian, etc. the United
Kingdom does NOT have a written constitution.

juttafranz: In fact, if you eminently take your constitution
seriously, then what is happening at this moment is a constitutional crime; and
what is the best constitution of the universe worth, if the scoundrels cannot
be brought to infinite justice. You see what I mean.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Franz, on that matter I would have to agree with you.

nonpositivism: Reposting for Carl's benefit:

nonpositivism: Carl and Jutta, I think bringing in other Constitutions
for comparative discussion is a GREAT idea! We should do
maybe one from the Bonaparte Democracies like Italy or France, the
USA, the Venezuelan, Soviet or Russian, etc. the United
Kingdom does NOT have a written constitution.

josuecc: agreed

juttafranz: Or, do you think that what is happening, what happened over the
last 45 years, in Vietnam, etc., that that is constitutional;
genocide is constitutional?

nonpositivism: Franz, I wish we had more time for this, but the short answer
is that unfortunately the USA has gotten far beyond the
Constitution in some ways, especially since FDR. This can be seen in the
non-reporting of CIA activity to Congress, etc. For more,
the best publicly available writings are by historian Gary Wills. See if you
can find any of his books.

juttafranz: Well, if you agree with these war crimes, with this mass destruction,
then I agree with you too -- Long live the American Constitution!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: (begins)

juttafranz: Short intermezzo: this is Jutta writing - sorry guys, none of what Franz has
on his screen here appeared on mine and neither
did my last few comments. My YIM got frozen. Please let us take up from here next
Thursday. I will gladly comment on the
Venezuelan Constitution, Scott. What do you all think?

josuecc: agreed

juttafranz: (Last message I got on my screen was Franz' about setting the
constitutional prairie on fire...)

nonpositivism: Yes, Jutta...I agree...reposting here for your benefit=>
Carl and Jutta, I think bringing in other Constitutions for
comparative discussion is a GREAT idea! We should do maybe one
from the Bonaparte Democracies like Italy or France, the USA,
the Venezuelan, Soviet or Russian, etc. the United Kingdom does
NOT have a written constitution.

juttafranz: Very good. So let us do a combined introduction.

nonpositivism: Also, in case you need help integrating all material,
I have saved this chat in its entirety since I joined one hour ago.

juttafranz: Please send me the transcript, Scott. Thanks.

juttafranz: Guys, gotta go. Was a pleasure to having you all
in the conference. Thanks to Josué and to Jesús for joining, and also to
Stellairis. Bye folks. Please all send their transcripts to Franz. Thanks and
be well all!

missnaranjahit: Bye bye all, and thanks!

nonpositivism: It would be helpful if folks could read in advance a
little of Charles Beard's famous 1913 assessment which declared
the USA to be essentially the secession and creation of Republic
by white property owning males to protect their economic
interests.....

nonpositivism: OK, I will send Transcript. Good afternoon, Buenas Tardes y Gute Nacht.......!

jutta_schmitt2002: (ends)

juttafranz: Jutta is trying to get online again. Bin Lee is back, there we go, Scott!

nonpositivism: ok

juttafranz: I notice you are all gone!!

juttafranz: Bye, folks!!

nonpositivism: correction! big brother is watching you

juttafranz: Who is still there?

josuecc: bye

juttafranz: Wait!!

juttafranz: who are all still there???

nonpositivism: Creo que Yo, Josue, Carlito aka Tornado, tú, Jutta.

juttafranz: I'm there, although I am not quite all there!

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

juttafranz: of course, if you still have some things up your sleeves,
then we could continue for a few minutes still.

carlzim: Thanks, guys .

juttafranz: So, to what consensus did you come, what topic next week, and who will introduce it?

carlzim: I'll compare present Russian and former USSR Constitutions in next chat .

juttafranz: Jesus, would you like to introduce a topic soon?

juttafranz: Josue, when could we have one of those brilliant lectures again?

juttafranz: Carl, that would be an excellent topic!

carlzim: Guys, after chat, download new Yahoo IM 5.5 (www.yahoo.com)

juttafranz: You could show how the constitutions of Great Powers come and go,
as they themselves come and go.

Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has left the conference.

carlzim: Thanks, Franz. However, IMHO it should be part of a general topic

juttafranz: OK, Carl.

juttafranz: Well, folks, not to overdo the do, let's part for today -- and next week,
we will all be back with fire!!

juttafranz: Carl, it will unfold into a general topic; surely, Scott will seeto t

nonpositivism: there are so many angles from which to approach this.
One is: how relatively important is it for Democracy, Justice,
etc. for a country to even have a written constitution? After all, the UK has not had
one and has been around for centuries. Of course
they have a royal lineage to help stabilize them.

juttafranz: p that!

juttafranz: ... to that.

juttafranz: My fingers are already playing monkey tricks.

juttafranz: Now, jokes aside, Scott.

juttafranz: Could you take over that aspect for next time?

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: which aspect, Franz?

carlzim: Thanks, Scott

nonpositivism: Haha, Carl has triple cloned himself. My Yahoo IM window shows 4
of you, Carl! I always wondered why you took such an interest in Human Cloning.

josuecc: TriCarl.

carlzim: After chat, I'll ask Earthlink (my ISP) to solve this Yahoo IM problem

josuecc: Carl, El Clon

nonpositivism: haha El Tornado es grande, hace más tornados...

juttafranz: This one, Scott: " how relatively important is it for Democracy,
Justice, etc. for a country to even have a written constitution? "

carlzim: Scott, I have a minimum of programs running. It's a server problem.

nonpositivism: Franz, I don't mind that one at all. Very creative possibilities.
As long as I attend (highly probable unless business
schedule interferes...I will clarify schedule as soon as possible) I will be glad
to introduce. But what about Jutta's discussion of
Venezuelan and Carl's discussion of Russian Constitutional history?
Will they introduce separately or just integrate into the general
discussion?

carlzim: I'll check if Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Franco Spain had written Constitutions

carlzim: I suggest integrating them, Scott

juttafranz: As this debate demonstrates, all three could be integrated
-- they have definite approximation ambits.

nonpositivism: Entonces Franz.....what format do you suggest?

juttafranz: 10 mintes, Carl; then 10 minutes, Scott, then 10 minutes,
jutta; in between 15 - 20 minutes, debates.

juttafranz: is that OK?

nonpositivism: Franz...you mean: Carl intro/Discuss Carl's ideas/Scott's
intro/discusse S's ideas/Jutta's intro/Debate J's ideas/Debate
and Discuss all?

juttafranz: Yes, that would fairly cover 2 hours -- and there will be no
cheating and robbery, all fair in love and war!!

nonpositivism: haha, OK, must attend to biz stuff now and exit gracefully. Bye again to all!

juttafranz: OK.

juttafranz: Bye, everybody!!

juttafranz: Signing off! Mission Impossible, Completed!!

juttafranz: Bye!!!

Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference. 
 

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