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Saying:  Hi!

Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference - juttafranz-3257.
juttafranz: Hi! Folks!!
carlzim: Hi, Franz and Scott. Where's Jutta?
juttafranz: Jutta is still renewing her driver's medical certificate -- will be late.
nonpositivism: Long lines. Same in USA.
juttafranz: Stella is not able -- Iris did not confirm assistance.
juttafranz: Don't know where Josue finds himself, Cuba, Moscow or Peking?
juttafranz: I invited Jesus -- he did not react as yet!
juttafranz: Yes, she may be in queue till 7 p.m., Scott.
nonpositivism: I think Josue may be in Cuba ...
nonpositivism: ... or Mexico.
juttafranz: Jesus is online in Yahoo -- he might participate.
nonpositivism: Good.
nonpositivism: How long do you think Jutta will be?
juttafranz: Anyhow, we three "Musketeers" may commence -- or do you two
want to postpone the chat till next time -- when all are there?
nonpositivism: No, we should get something going right now, since we have thought
about and prepared material.
juttafranz: Was tun? Que hacer? What is to be done?
juttafranz: I agree!!
juttafranz: Carl, and you?
juttafranz: Here in Venezuela everything is possible -- from what she told me,
the earliest that she could be here, ...
juttafranz: studying the queue, and the slowness of the authorities, she may be
here at 5. 00 PM.

THE INTRODUCTION COMMENCES ....

nonpositivism: OK....Let's start anyway. We can do this like Socrates .... everything
you always wanted to know about the USA Constitution but were afraid to ask. Why
don't you ask some questions - strictly informational- and I will answer. Carl can do the
same for Russian Constitution. You can do the same for Venezuela. We will learn some
interesting stuff in this fashion.

juttafranz: OK!!

nonpositivism: Carl, please reply if you are receiving me, else I will assume you are
overboard and need to be re-invited.

juttafranz: Well, Carl and Scott, in your humble opinions, what are consitutions de
facto and de jure?

nonpositivism: All right, Franz, after we get Carl back. Ask your questions. Try to keep
them short.

nonpositivism: You want to re-invite Carl?

nonpositivism: [Many short questions are more efficient than fewer long ones]

juttafranz: Now, even Carl went for medical attention!!

nonpositivism: haha, more likely his computer is being rebooted. Should be back within a
few minutes. If not, I will answer your question anyway.

juttafranz: OK, I don't trust anything today.

nonpositivism: OK, re-invite him please.

juttafranz: I did. Carl, are you Houdini?

nonpositivism: Carl is the master of the Disappearing Act.

nonpositivism: Franz, do you want to repost your question for Carlos' benefit?

juttafranz: Well, Carl and Scott, in your humble opinions, what are consitutions de facto and
de jure?

nonpositivism: Good, you are a telepath.

carlzim: Hi, Franz and Scott. I had to reboot.

nonpositivism: OK, I'll take a stab at that one, Franz:

juttafranz: OK! Go ahead!!

nonpositivism: Poor Carl....welcome back again!

nonpositivism: De facto is all that matters. Jefferson was very, very prescient about this. The
carrying out of laws should be left to the people. Enforcement/nonenforcement is more
important than articulating a legal document.

nonpositivism: "While defacto is all that matters", in countries with a written Constitution
de jure can be very important in setting the framework for de facto. Depends on how much
respect there is for the law, as opposed to arbitrary/illegal authority.

nonpositivism: Poor Carl....welcome back again!

nonpositivism: De facto is all that matters. Jefferson was very, very prescient about this.
The carrying out of laws should be left to the people. Enforcement/nonenforcement is more
important than articulating a legal document. nonpositivism: "While defacto is all that
matters", in countries with a written Constitution de jure can be very important in setting the
framework for de facto. Depends on how much respect there is for the law, as opposed to
arbitrary/illegal authority.

nonpositivism: Did you two both receive my comments above? Carl, why don't you take
a stab at Franz's question?

juttafranz: If I understood everything well, constitutions constitute the general will of all the
people; they are made of, by and for the people. Is this correct? The very social contract, the
consultation with all the sectors of the population guarantees that the economic, political and
social contents of democratic constitutions are fair and just. Did I understand you well, Scott?

carlzim: Thanks.

nonpositivism: No, Franz, that is not at all what I said. Please reread carefully.

juttafranz: I see, but that is what generally is "make-believe"!

nonpositivism: First, a Constitution is not necessarily democratic or republican at all.
It can be imposed by elites. What you mentioned is more Rousseau's idea of the Social
Contract, the General will which is great stuff but never really made much headway in
America. America was more influence by the British and Scottish Enlightenment,
particularly Locke and Hume.

carlzim: My stab is lengthy. It's about the Constitutions of the Governments of
former USSR and present Russia and Eastern Europe. I offer the following examples,
and include excerpts from various Constitutions and my comments.

carlzim: ISSUE #1:

In the 1970s, human rights activists put on trial for anti-Soviet
activities (such as protesting the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968)
attempted to use the 1977 USSR Constitution to protect their actions,
given that it protected freedom of association (art. 51); yet it was
consistently unsuccessful. What was the language in the USSR
Constitution that undermines the exercise of rights by Soviet citizens?

juttafranz: Scott, this -- "carrying out of laws should be left to the people" -- probably
could only function in the USA, and nowhere else. If the "people" would have to take
the "law" in their hands, surely, we'll all return to the jungle, hiding high up in the trees.

nonpositivism: In particular, they saw a man's right to Life, Liberty and Property as
indispensable bulwarks against arbitrary state power, including any constitutional Laws.
[As articulated by the USA Declaration of Independence....please revisit the concept of
Natural Law]

carlzim: Comment:
Freedom of association was restricted to pro-Communist organizations, and a
guarantor of this right wasn't specified.

Article 51 [Association]in USSR Constitution (1977):

(1) In accordance with the aims of building communism, citizens of the USSR have
the right to associate in public organizations that promote  their political activity and
initiative and satisfaction of their various interests.

carlzim:

 (2) Public organizations are guaranteed conditions for successfully
performing the functions defined in their rules.

Reference:
http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/r100000_.html
 

carlzim: I'll continue later.

carlzim: Scott, Franz?

nonpositivism: actually Carl, based on what I see in 51.1 a good attorney could well
have driven a Spaceship through that. It never stipulates a necessary relationship
between Communism and Freedom of Association. We must return to Franz's De Facto
concept. De jure was systematically perverted and ignored in Russia.

carlzim: Agreed, Scott.

nonpositivism: Franz, why don't u teach us a little about the Venezuelan constitution?

carlzim: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.

juttafranz: Scott, indirectly you are saying that States are power hungry and
arbitrary, that they tend towards political domination. Why? When the same
peoples for whom laws and constitutions are made, participate in statemanship,
where's the problem? Gore and Bush did not come from Mars, they are not
aliens -- they are normal, simple people, typical Americans.

carlzim: Franz, and so?

nonpositivism: Franz, in answer to your question. History proves that any private
or public power apparatus tends to oppress those with less power. Critical to
mitigate this is constitutional and enforced protection for Minority Rights. This
was the radical strength of the USA constitution 200 years ahead of its time.
It rejected Rousseau's "general will" concept as too dictatorial.

carlzim: ISSUE #2:
Here's some examples. Scott:
The adoption of new Constitutions in Eastern Europe has proved to be
easier than creating "constitutional democracy." Why doesn't the
adoption of a Constitution give rise to a constitutional democracy? What
more is needed? Why is it so difficult to achieve?

carlzim: Comment:
Various Constitutions specify that the courts decide whether to allow this freedom,
and/or don't specify the guarantor of this right. Also, historically various countries
don't have strong democratic traditions or negative experience with democracy,
e.g., in Solidarity in Poland (1980's), it tended to be chaotic.

nonpositivism: Carl, there must be an oral and civil tradition of respect for Law.
If not, arbitrary power will quickly erode the power of any words.

juttafranz: It seems to me that the people elect and select their constitutions and
laws, hence they deserve them, also, they deserve their rulers, and the rulers deserve
their people, even, when now and then, they are warrior-citizens. Lenin and Stalin got
exactly what could be gotten from Czarist masses, and the Czars reign there till this
day, Carl.

carlzim: Agreed, Scott & Franz
carlzim: From present Constitution of Poland:

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/pl00000_.html

Article 58:

(1) The freedom of association shall be guaranteed to everyone.
(2) Associations whose purposes or activities are contrary to the
Constitution or statutes shall be prohibited. The courts shall adjudicate
whether to permit an association to register or to prohibit an
association from such activities.

juttafranz: I'm reading, Carl.

nonpositivism: Franz, what about circumstances like Iraq when a dictator thug
advances by direct assassination and pilfering. Is he truly "representative" of the
Iraqi people?

carlzim:  (3) Statutes shall specify types of associations requiring court
registration, a procedure for such registration and the forms of
supervision of such associations.
 

juttafranz: Scott, do you know Hussein? Ever seen him personally? You had any
discussion with him? If not, what do you know about him, about Iraq?

carlzim: From present Constitution of Russia"

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/ch2.html

Article 30.

1.Everyone shall have the right to association, including the right to create trade
unions in order to protect one's interests.
The freedom of public associations activities shall be guaranteed.
2.No one may be coerced into joining any association or into membership thereof.

gocho24: Hi everyone.

nonpositivism: Franz, I prefer to let Peter Arnett do the talking about Saddam.

juttafranz: Well, you did not get your information from CNN -- you blocked the channel.
So, to come to such a pejorative, condemning statement, where are the real, true facts
that base such a statement. If you are right, well, let us bomb Hussein, better yesterday
than today!!

carlzim: Franz, Hussein=Stalin=Hitler=Czar=Haroun Al Raschid

carlzim: Hi, gocho. What's your name?

gocho24: Jesus... I was introduced to you guys last week by Josue' Carrillo

carlzim: Hi, Jesus.

gocho24: How are you doing? I see you are talking about Hussein :)

gocho24: Let me get up to speed with you guys ... :)_

nonpositivism: Franz:: Hussein is even more dangerous to his own people than the rest
of the planet. Talk to a few of the Iraqis that defected and now work in the West.  Besides,
who else randomly starts Oil Well fires and destroys an ecosystem to "send a message"
to the West? Or sends Scud missiles to the "Zionist oppressor" to kill civilians and cause
terror? Ironically, I would like to see what the Iraqi constitution says about all this. :>

carlzim: Franz, USA installed secularist Islamist Hussein to offset Islamist Iran in 1980's.

juttafranz: There's the same problem. I do not know Peter, he could tell me anything
and I have to believe him -- surely, you know who in the first place paint Hussein "black"
and why? Must you necessarily follow the line? Is there something along the line not
perhaps stinking? Are you not smelling an American rat in the Pentagon, White House
or in the "laws", for example, in the "Patriot Act"?

juttafranz: If not, Scotty, then, please become a Cartesian: dubito, cogito, ergo sum.

nonpositivism: All you needed to measure Hussein was his live interview with Peter
Arnett on CNN 11 years ago. Arnett is one of the best journalists the world has
had in 35 years. Ironically, he was later fired by CNN for his honesty and
intransigence.

carlzim: USA supports or attacks Hussein for Mideast stability.

gocho24: It all comes down to oil... Yes, Hussein is a ruthless dictator, ... yes,
he might be involved with terrorists networks... but is all this why the US is
taking him down? My bet is Bush is doing it to swamp the markets with cheap
oil so that Detroit keeps cranking up SUVs .

gocho24: Doing the right things for the wrong reasons...

nonpositivism: Hussein believes that "innocent blood" should flow to serve himself
and Allah - when he chooses to invoke it. Yes, Jesus....Hussein's savagery should
not obfuscate why America has dealt with him on/off since the 80's as you and Carl
make very clear.

juttafranz: Like Bush, Hussein plays his role, cites the speeches written for him,
plays the clown that the press made of him; the question is: Why should Iraq be
bombed? Not because Bush does not like Hussein personally, in fact, the two have
much in common, could become "blood-brothers".

carlzim: One main reason why the USA attacked Iraq in 1991, and has continued to
attack Iraq thereafter has been to prevent a Russia-Iraq weapons/oil
refinement deal that would enable Russia to pay off its IMF loans.
The USA wants Russia to be economically weak.

carlzim: However, the West will help Russia modernize its military to help protect
the West's oil interests in the Caspian, and to prevent China from
invading Russia. Russia will need money to pay the West for military
modernization. Both Russia and the West want economically weak
Central Asian ex-USSR countries to exploit their resources.
It gets complicated.
 

gocho24: ... and let's not forget Hussein is a great excuse to divert the public
opinion when an intern happens to have a fling with a president.

carlzim: http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jwit/jwit020823_1_n.shtml
Abu Nidal murder trail leads directly to Iraqi regime

            By Mohammed Najib

            It has now become very clear and much confirmed that the Iraqi regime headed
            by Saddam Hussein was directly responsible for the assassination of the Palestinian
            terrorist Sabri al-Bana, known to the world as Abu Nidal.

nonpositivism: Franz, haha:)) Blood brothers? Can you see them praying together?
But there is one good point behind all this, one common ground: Oil. If Iraq or Saudi
Arabia "plays ball" enough to furnish the cheap oil supply, just about all can be
"forgiven" - as the USA has done in the last 11 years with the perverse twist of
starving and depriving Iraqi civilians of proper medical care. That is unconscionable.

juttafranz: I am not a fan of "great men" who make or break history; I know all the
dirty propaganda tricks to gain power, to get oil, and to undermine  constitutional rights.

carlzim: IMHO the Abu Nidal incident could impair Iraqi/Palestinian relations,
reducing the effect of Israeli/Palestinian conflict in complicating a USA attack on Iraq.

juttafranz: Scott, if you are a statesman, you would not be an angel, otherwise you
would be in heaven, rather you serve the economic interests of your State, the
privileges of its ruling classes, because they put you there, hence Hussein is where
he is because of certain Arab interests, and that Bush should bomb him to blazes,
has nothing to do with laws or the constitution; Corporate America needs
this war, and, basta ....

gocho24: Jutta: Amen...

juttafranz: Why complicating the attack, Carl?

carlzim:
Quoting Harper's index, a collection of ho-hum 'factoids' as they have become known:
Percentage of oil imported by the US last year that came from Persian Gulf countries:
23 Percentage that came from Canada and Mexico: 27 Minimum amount the Saudi
government spent last fall on multi-page US print ads touting King Fahd: $3,200,000

nonpositivism: Franz, do you think America's "Ruling classes" put and kept FDR
in power in the USA for 12+ years between 1932 and 1945?

juttafranz: Hi! Jesus!!!

gocho24: Jutta: Hi... glad to join this conversation again.

gocho24: Carl: Add Venezuela and that figure is close to 42%.

gocho24: I mean.... 42% of oil comes from non-arab countries.

carlzim: Franz, it will cause friction between Saddam and Palestinians.

juttafranz: Well, if the ruling ones did not do it, then those that are being ruled must
have done it -- then, they got now precisely what they deserve, the same applies to
Hussein and his electors!

gocho24: Not to mention Iraq will probably be split in 3 different countries after Saddam....

carlzim: Thanks, Jesus. However, amount the Pentagon has paid a Washington PR
firm since then (last October) to help sway public opinion abroad: $7,100,000 (not
counting the PR efforts in Afghanistan by our Forward Entertainment for the Al Qaida).
Cost of Mideast oil for Western oil importers is lowest and thus most profitable.

nonpositivism: Sorry, Franz: I can't agree that a leader of a Republic elected in fair
election by Majority is morally equivalent and has same leadership imperatives
and mandate as someone who moves up by assassination.

juttafranz: It's the famous saying about: the ignorant, innocent lambs who elect
their butcher temselves: actually, it's a magnificent definition of "democracy".

nonpositivism: Who's to say either that those who elected Leaders are by definition
"ignorant lambs". Maybe they're well-educated, literate, self-motivated to
participate in elections to protect their interests and those of their society.

gocho24: Carl: In the US case, that's not true.... Oil from within NAFTA is cheaper,
as the majority of big oil producers in the Mideast belong to OPEC, thus, they
follow fixed prices.

nonpositivism: Tell me, Franz, do you think the Socialists who controlled Govt.
in Sweden for 40 years were elected by "ignorant lambs" charting a course of
self-destruction?

juttafranz: "Fair election" -- ever heard about "disinformation", "infowar",
mass media manipulation, in many democracies; the mass media elect the
coming party and president into power -- so, what's fair about that? Were the Florida
elections fair?

nonpositivism: Hi, Franz:I'll answer your question about Florida if you answer
mine about Sweden.

juttafranz: Well, well, Scott, even in this case, what was "socialist" about them?
They were as capitalist as any Democrat in the USA. Again, these things have to
do with the historic winds of change; at the moment such Swedish experiments
could never see the light, not even in  Scandinavia; what is on the order of the
day is republican, national, socialist governments. And we see them pop up all
over.

juttafranz: Jesus, what do you think?

juttafranz: You agree with me, Scott?

nonpositivism: Well, Franz although your answer equating Swedish Socialists
like Gunnar Myrdal to USA Democrats like Bob Torricelli is absurd, I will keep
my promise:

carlzim: Jesus, NAFTA may not supply enough oil. USA oil importers, e.g.,
Standard Oil (Rockefellers), may import wanted amounts of Mideast oil at
lower cost for higher profits. Otherwise why do USA Government officials
consistently kiss the ar*ses of the Saudi Royal family on TV while the latter
grin like hyenas? The present cost of keeping that family in power may be too
high. Also, when the massive space exploration/colonization program materializes,
Tesla free electromagnetic energy may replace oil as the maajor energy source.
Not enough oil on Earth to power a galactic economy. Home

nonpositivism: America does not have very fair elections, and Florida demonstrated
some of the lack of fairness along racial/class lines and uneven technology. But this
is NOT the primary problem with American elections. The biggest problem is apathy
and non-involvement. Only 10- 50% of the public votes in any elections. That is the
bigger question which must be explored.

carlzim: Franz, different economy in USA and Sweden.

juttafranz: Scott, if a socialist is the exact opposite of a capitalist, then you have
a problem; however, if a socialist is just a synonym for a good Adam Smith,
liberal, or libertarian capitalist, then, I fully agree with you.

juttafranz: Of course, Carl.

carlzim: Myrdal favored Hoxha's Stalinist Albanian system in 1960's

juttafranz: Sweden is part of Europe, the rival of the USA.

carlzim: Rival of USA?

nonpositivism: Franz, it comes down to a philosophy of distribution of wealth.
Not all is equal, and not all philosophies and policies produce anywhere near
the same results. Not every nation has 50 million without Health Insurance and
one man worth 100 Billion Dollars.

carlzim: Agreed, Scott.

juttafranz: The bombimg of Iraq is a step nearer my enemy to thee! Why the
"New War"? Hussein is pea-nuts! Europe (Germany) is the "Golden Calf".

nonpositivism: Tax policy, Social Welfare, Medicare, Social safety net, Policing,
Privacy, they all vary greatly in the continuum. And much depends on the ideology
of "Free Markets". Regardless of what you think of Sweden before or after
European consolidation, its govt. and economics are rooted in a radically different
philosophy from ours.

carlzim: Scott, it gets complicated. Quality of free Soviet medicine B& dentistry
was poor.

nonpositivism: Yes, but that was partially due to technology and resource
constraints. Look at distribution on continuum from USA to Canada to Scandinavia.

carlzim: Franz, USA wants to control Mideast oil.

nonpositivism: Countries with high technology and resources still have vastly
different philosophies on the distribution.

carlzim: Scott, the Soviet nomenklatura got quality medical & dental care.

juttafranz: A World War, in which major powers are not involved, is just a joke,
because then the war does not resolve the crisis of depression and recession;
this the USA knows, it has not only oil in its cranium, it knows what a war is worth,
also its golden fruits.

nonpositivism: Exactly, Carl - that's the "classless" society for you. Haha:>

carlzim: Yep, Scott.

juttafranz: Well, folks, you have "class", live in high class society!

nonpositivism: [By the way, Carl Khruschev's son remarked that his father admitted
to him when they visited Scandinavian countries in the 50's that they were way, way
ahead of Russia in any egalitarian distribution of goods and services]

carlzim: Franz, in the present global economy, control,  not world war, is key to
economic stabilization and wealth carlzim: Scott, also Russians drank too much vodka.

juttafranz: Distribution of wealth or even nationalization have nothing to do with
anti-capitalism, less with socialism and communism; they are extreme varieties
of the very same capitalist system.

carlzim: They still do.

nonpositivism: Franz...I hope Jutta gets back soon so we can receive her sure-to-be
timely and fascinating comments on this stuff.

carlzim: Franz, Capitalism=control

juttafranz: Well, are you trying to tell me between the flowers that my comments are
not "politically or economically correct", that my mind is mentally challenged?

nonpositivism: Carl you don't mean to say the Russians are a nation of lazy
alcoholics do you? That does not fit the facts. You know they pioneered Parachuting
into Forest Fires...all kinds of radical and advanced physical training methods, not to
mention Literary, Math and Scientific achievements. Give them some credit.

juttafranz: Well, are you trying to tell me between the flowers that my comments
are not "politically or economically correct", that my mind is mentally challenged?

carlzim: Thanks, Scott.

nonpositivism: [For a great article, symbolic on Russain creative imagination in
maximizing technology, see the current National Geographic. Or read accounts by
Astronauts who flew against Russian Migs in the 50's. They all learned a respect
for Russian technique and innovation.

carlzim: I give them credit, e,g., Sholzhenytsin, Shostakovich, sputnik.

juttafranz: Well, Scott, in that case, Jutta will have to take over in future!!

carlzim: Scott, I'm assistant host in Russian forum.

nonpositivism: What the country never developed was Contract Law, Civil Liberties
or Minority protection, Due Process, etc. Missed out on this tradition. Jefferson himself
noted this circa 1800. Czars did not get it. Communists didn't get it - although
Khruschev was ahead of his time in a lot of ways he was forced out too.

nonpositivism: These historical circumstances, political defects are still hampering
them greatly. In effect, they now have Robber Baron Capitalism and Thuggery
beyond the rule of law, like a Wild East much worse than the American Wild West of 1900.

gocho24: Sorry guys....

juttafranz: Hi, Jesus!!

carlzim: After chat, visit Russian culture:

gocho24: Jutta: Sorry.... closed my window and I have none of you guys in my list :)

gocho24: let me add you

carlzim: http://www.und.edu/dept/lang/russian/162/culture.html

gocho24: Jutta: thanks for re-inviting me.

nonpositivism: Franz, in regard to your question before.....no insult to your cognitive
or intellectual powers was implied, amigo. I just think you're too liberal in lumping
together vastly different countries and personalities as driven by equivalent
circumstances.

juttafranz: Jesus, click in the upper right corner on our names, then click add in
the box that appears.

carlzim: Visit http://www.slavweb.com/eng/Russia/art-e.html

gocho24: There.... :)

juttafranz: So, the truth is in multiplicity, and nothing has a golden thread, no
theoretical common factors? Exception: We Americans!

carlzim: And visit http://www.unc.edu/courses/hist031/links.html

carlzim: No exceptions, Franz.

gocho24: Nonpositivism: I can hear you typing.

gocho24: Let me fix my mike.

nonpositivism: Franz, common factors are fine, they exist and are valid. But there's a
whole other realm of comparative analysis which merits attention. The key is where
you place your emphasis. In these areas in my judgment you have overemphasized
commonalities in leadership and will to power across nation-states, etc. at the expense
of ignoring huge domestic ideological and political differences.

juttafranz: Well, back!!

juttafranz: Well, folks, save what you can, and send the fragments to me later, please.

nonpositivism: Franz, for your peace of mind, Yo tengo lo todo!

gocho24: Conversation logging takes care of that for me :)

juttafranz: OK! Scott!!

gocho24: Next thrusday again? :)

nonpositivism: Franz, aren't you going to say something about the Venezuelan
constitution? And de jure and de facto stuff?

carlzim: Folks, it's the same old military tribunal:
www.tenc.net * [Emperor's Clothes]

=======================================
33 Days and Still No Answer. What Was Done to Rade Markovic?
by Jared Israel
[Posted 29 August 2002]
=======================================

carlzim: On July 26th Slobodan Milosevic cross-examined Rade Markovic, former
head  of the Security Police of Serbia and the most important prosecution witness
to date in this so-called trial.

carlzim: The testimony was stunning. Markovic had been touted as the insider
who would finger Milosevic. Instead, calmly, thoughtfully, he refuted the
prosecution case, including statements which had been attributed to him by Hague
"investigators". And then, with so-called Judge Richard May violating the so-called
tribunal's own official rules in an attempt to prevent Milosevic from dealing with the
abuse of Markovic during the so-called investigation in Belgrade, the Yugoslav leader
managed to ask the former Police chief:

carlzim: "Slobodan Milosevic: Is it true that this statement that has been presented
about the mopping up of the terrain [supposedly to hide war crimes...] was drafted
precisely by the same people and under the sponsorship of those people who exerted
pressure on you and who have been torturing you for one year and a half now?

Markovic: Yes. It's an interview with the same people."

juttafranz: I see, Scott -- and, by no chance, you are "perhaps" also "ignoring"
some important things that I want to make you fully aware of -- or is it that what
you say is "absolute" -- the information highway to knowledge about this multiplex world?
I surely know what you are saying, I never discard that point of view -- but I am afraid to
loose you among the multiplicity of trees, and that we both would not see the "bush",
the "bush fire".

carlzim: Guys, who are those people?

nonpositivism: Need to take a quick break, I'll still be online........

juttafranz: Carl, Scott took a break.

juttafranz: Jesus ascended!

carlzim: Thanks, I accidentally disconnected myself.

juttafranz: Now you and I are alone.

gocho24: I see no ascension in my life... not even at work!

juttafranz: Sorry, Jesus.

gocho24: I'm still here, reading an interview of the Iraqui Embassador to Venezuela.

juttafranz: I tried to invite you again, and could not find you.

carlzim: Scott,are you here?

gocho24: pretty interesting......

juttafranz: No, he went for a break!

gocho24: By the way, I enjoyed your thoughts on the mailing list.

carlzim: OK, Franz.

juttafranz: Jesus, how do you see the American constitution and laws nowadays, vis-a-vis
"aliens"?

gocho24: I think the american constitution, as written and barring the rights to own
firearms, is one of the finest pieces of legislature done by man.

gocho24: However

juttafranz: Yes, most of them are already online, Jesus, later I'll send you the html,
where you could enjoy past comments on current events.

gocho24: The american constitution has been put in a pedestal by most americans
who dare not even have a bit of criticism against it.

gocho24: It's almost "inspired by God" to most americans, thus it's America's right
and will to enforce it everywhere.

gocho24: Compared to other countries..., and my country's in particular...

gocho24: I believe it can be summed up in a conversation I had a couple of years ago
about the venezuelan constitution with an american.... when he saw the little blue book
he said.

gocho24: "You have a lot of beliefs".

juttafranz: Jesus, you mean to say, that by right of the constitution, American
citizens are forbidden to produce arms of mass destruction and carry them,
like, for example, in Iraq?

gocho24: Jutta: No.. Americans HAVE the right (constitutional right) to own
and bear arms to protect themselves and property gocho24: So, it's ok for
America to produce weapons and dump ithem on their citenzenry, but it's NOT
ok for a "rogue" state to do the same.

juttafranz: M mmm ... also to attack countries, that do not threaten the USA, Jesus?

gocho24: Jutta: I'm just stating what American think is their right, not my belief :)

gocho24: Americans will not be against an invasion against any country in the
world as they believe it's their right to do so when their "security" is at risk.

gocho24: Being economic, social or military security.

juttafranz: I know, and I just want to know what you think they believe -- in your
everyday, real life experience with them.

carlzim: Jesus, visit:
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

juttafranz: Of course, also what you really think, in a country of freedom of thought
and speech.

gocho24: I think they truly believe America is the land chosen by God to destroy
evil and spread good around the world.

gocho24: Whatever that means for them.

juttafranz: No, that land is Israel -- they are making a mistake!!

gocho24: I'm sure for Washington it means they can do whatever they feel like
around the world and not fear public outrage like they did during Vietnam.

gocho24: Jutta: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

gocho24: Jutta: Sharon will agree with what you just said, yes.

carlzim: Jesus: Please refer to the USA Bill of Rights:

                 [Bill of Rights banner and homepage link]
http://memory.loc.gov/const/bor.html
                             THE BILL OF RIGHTS
                    Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

gocho24: My own view is that the US is growing more and more unilateral and
they will not be stopped by any country, group of countries or institutions when
they want their will imposed.

gocho24: Carl: Thank you.

juttafranz: Of course, Hitler tried to usurp that Herrenvolk chosen right, look
what was the divine punishment. Tell, the folks around you to be aware?
America is a mixture, not a chosen tincture!!

gocho24: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

gocho24: God (or NRA) forbids that be changed!

juttafranz: And, when they should run wild, shooting around in schools, in Fort Bragg,
what does the constitution say about that?

gocho24: Carl: However, as I said, the US constitution is one of the finest pieces
of work done by man... a true example of what defines a great nation.

carlzim: Jesus, IMHO, it's the best Constitution available.

juttafranz: Did you know that the greater things are, the heavier they are, the harder
they fall?

gocho24: Carl: Oh yes, definately... however, it should not be interpreted as a way
to define other cultures (The more a culture deviates from the american constitution,
the more barbaric it is, and so it deserves a couple of missiles coming their way).

juttafranz: Jesus, tell the Americans to read the current Venezuelan Constitution,
they may be up for a great surprise!

gocho24: Jutta: heck! I was up for a BIG surprise when I first read it.

gocho24: But what good is a constitution if there are no respectable institutions
willing or able to impose it?

juttafranz: In my most humble opinion, it is one of the few, most democratic
constitutions around, will be the last of its kind soon.

juttafranz: What "good" is an American constitution, when you play global
Wild West Cowboy, first shoot and then ask questions, like you did it with the
poor "Red Indians". To build democracy on that, well, ....

nonpositivism: sorry for delay, guys.........I'm with u but on the phone right now.

gocho24: Jutta: I might have to agree with that, however, when I read the venezuelan
constitution I see no more than paper, it does not unite venezuelans as a people and
it does not provide a good foundation on which to build a country.

gocho24: Not because it's bad.

carlzim: Iraq has Interim Constitution:

carlzim: http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/iz00000_.html

gocho24: It's because there's no belief behind it, nor willingness to follow it.

carlzim: At least USA Constitution isn't interim.

gocho24: Carl: hahahahahaha

gocho24: Carl: "interim constitution" translates to: A constitution fit for
Saddam's dictatorship which can be changed at will.

carlzim: Agreed, Jesus. Similar to old Soviet Constitution:
carlzim: Article 26 [Expression, Association]
              The Constitution guarantees freedom of opinion, publication,
              meeting, demonstrations and formation of political parties, syndicates,
              and societies in accordance with the objectives of the Constitution and
              within the limits of the law. The State ensures the considerations
              necessary to exercise these liberties, which comply with the
              revolutionary, national, and progressive trend.

juttafranz: You know, Jesus, the road to Heaven is paved with good intentions, but
what can you do with a constitution, when your corporations are corrupt, when your
presidents are blatant liars, when you undermine other country's constitutions,
when you endow money to topple democratically elected presidents, when you just
do not have the (wo)men to apply your constitution. Who makes a constitution, the
best in the galaxy, that is not applicable, that cannot be realized of, by and for the
people, is simply nuts!

gocho24: Carlzim: Compare that to: "Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging
the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

carlzim: Yep, Jesus.

juttafranz: The Holy Bible says: On their deeds they shall be judged!  In that case,
constitutionally and democratically, seen from Vietnam, Cuba, Bosnia, Japan,
Germany, ... and elsewhere, the USA is the very last one in the line of human justice.

gocho24: Jutta: Before Chavez started rewriting the constitution, he should've
united the people around it. Instead, he decided to fight have the country, insult
them and force them to rebel against him. When half the population believes in its
constitution but the other half don't want to, then the country is for a big surprise.

juttafranz: The mass media ....

juttafranz: That what informs, deforms, uniforms us ....

gocho24: Jutta: Well, that the american goverment breaks international laws,
that it's willing to abuse human rights abroad (not in their territory, however),
does not mean the american constitution is not a fine piece.

gocho24: Again, what the US is today is by no means the fault of their constitution.

nonpositivism: haha

carlzim: Hi, Scott.

gocho24: Gotta say goodbye to you guys.... my own personal american opressor
(my grilfriend) is here to pick me up :)

carlzim: Jutta, are you in this chat room?

gocho24: Please send me a copy of this conversation....

juttafranz: And the news comes from CNN, Reuters, UPI, dpa, etc. And those
are the "facts" that remain in the heads of a democratic people. Venezuela is
no exception, millions are brain-drained, laundered, and they think that they
are well-informed, and that Chavez, Castro and Hussein are skunks -- even
the best of us fall for this nonsense.

FADING OUT ....

carlzim: Glad youi joined the chat, Jesus. Thanks.
gocho24: See ya next friday!
gocho24: No, thank you for your insight :)
gocho24: Bye!
gocho24: Jutta: See you next Thursday.
carlzim: Bye, Jesus.
gocho24: Non: I'll be trying out my mic next week again :)
juttafranz: Bye! Jesus!
gocho24: Bye everyone.
juttafranz: Always welcome!!
juttafranz: Send me your ms.
carlzim: juttafranz, are you Jutta?
juttafranz: I have to go and cook too.
juttafranz: I am Franz.
juttafranz: Jutta is not back as yet!!
juttafranz: Carl & Scott, thanks for your introductions.
juttafranz: Kindly send me your fragments.
juttafranz: Bye, folks!!!
juttafranz: Greetings to Fran, from us, Carl.
carlzim: You're welcome, Franz. Fran sends regards to you&Jutta
juttafranz: Bye, Scott!
carlzim: Glad you joined, Scott
carlzim: Bye, guys
juttafranz: It was a pleasure, Scott.
juttafranz: Send me the whole ms.
juttafranz: Scott, you are the only one who has a complete text!
juttafranz: Bye!!
nonpositivism: yes!
 

EPILOGUE: 

     Of all the comments made today by anyone, I find Jesus's among the most 
     interesting:

     I think the American constitution, as written and barring the rights to own
     firearms, is one of the finest pieces of legislature done by man.
     However, the American constitution has been put in a pedestal by most
     americans who dare not even have a bit of criticism against it.

     It's almost "inspired by God" to most Americans, thus it's America's right
     and will to enforce it everywhere.

Hi Jesus,

In today's (8/29/02) conference you correctly identified that American zealotry
sometimes called "Manifest Destiny" - a belief that we are morally bound to expand our National influence. In other words, that America has been divinely chosen by G-d for a special historical mission, to spread "Democracy", "Truth", Technical knowhow across the world. To be the world's leader and virtuous teacher.

In this way, America has been far, far more aggressive about perpetrating its ideology and way of life on other nations than its Constitutional Framers ever envisioned we would be. An interesting contradiction.

Scott. 
********************************************************************* 

    Scott, 

    carlzim: Bush attempted to wean dependence on 
    foreign oil by getting the ANWR lands drilled. Instead, the anti American
    liberals decried the area as "pristine" and scared legislators into voting
    against the forward thinking measure. Oil substitutes will not come
    overnight, so we need to think of possibilities such as offshore drilling and
    ANWR or we may see gas prices over 3 bucks a gallon...and with many
    areas without adequate mass transit, our economy will be in shambles! 
    Carl. 
 
************************************************************************ 

    Hi Carl, 

    I hope you do not take this personally, but: 

    Your thesis below about the Alaska Wildlife Refuge is environmentally
    irresponsible, short-sighted and selfish for the (at best unclear) benefit of the
    very few at the expense of the great many. This bizarre slander against
    "anti-American liberals" that we have heard in this country for 50 years 
    echoes McCarthyism more than anything else. Americans and peoples of the 
    world have paid a deadly price for this myopia. 

    I'm surprised you do not understand the importance of preserving in its 
    pristine state this wilderness, one of the last remaining on Earth. You 
    should read more of Ed Wilson from Harvard on biodiversity. This is a 
    no-brainer. 

    How much "suffering" will Americans really experience if Gas goes up to
    $3.00/gallon if the world market/demand fluctuates? Your remarks are very
    revealing about the extraordinarily selfish and short-sighted perspective from
    which America/Big Oil operate. And if the "average American" so openly 
    embraces this philosophy, then we do deserve a measure of disrespect and 
    resentment from those nations who cannot so easily afford to "dump" on 
    somebody else. 

    Submitted for your reflective consideration, 

    Scott. 
 
      **************************************************************** 

  Scott, 
  I don't take your comment personally, and respect your right to
  express your own opinion. IMHO, it's important for the USA to be independent
  of Mideast oil, and drilling oil in Alaska would help. I'm assuming that the
  USA will first develop technology to drill the oil without harming the
  environment; e.g., it would similar to some pharmaceuticals which do not
  cross the blood /brain barrier, reaching the target organ without affecting the
  brain as a harmful side effect. If this technology cannot be developed, then I
  recommend that the USA not drill Alaskan oil, and substitute Tesla
  technology for oil as the main energy source when the capability to
  accomplish this is fully developed. I required more time to develop this
  qualifying message than I found for the fast moving chat. 

  Carl 

*************************************************************************
Franz, please add the following message as an addendum to the chat log.
Thanks.. Carl 

Folks, the following addendum qualifies my comment on drilling Alaskan oil in
this chat. Carl. 

Scott,

IMHO, it's important for the USA to be independent of Mideast oil, and drilling
oil in Alaska would help. I'm assuming that the USA will first develop
technology to drill the oil without harming the environment, e.g., it would
similar to some pharmaceuticals which do not cross the blood /brain barrier,
reaching the target organ without affecting the brain as a harmful side effect. If
this technology cannot be developed, then I recommend that the USA not drill
Alaskan oil, and substitute Tesla technology for oil as the main energy source
when the capability to accomplish this is fully developed. 

Carl.. 
************************************************************************ 
Folks, 

If the US is to be independent of Mideast Oil, there's
always reliable countries in its vicinity that can
supply as much oil as needed (Mexico, Venezuela,
Brasil, Ecuador). If the US is proposing more "Free
Trade" (I hope it means "we all get a piece of the
pie" instead of "we get to exploit you. period"), this
will be a great time to show their intentions. If
there's going to be a Free Trade Agreenment for the
Americas, let the Americans (as in USOnians, for lack
of a better term) buy American (as in the whole
continent) first!

Jesus. 

*********************************************************************** 

    From: 
           Coffeebob28@aol.com
      To: 
           franzjutta@cantv.net

   Regime Change," there's a pretty euphemism, I'll bet the boys down in the public relations department worked overtime on that one. That sounds almost sanitary enough to convince the public to close their eyes while it happens. Let's take a moment have look at what we're really talking about. What the Bush Administration is proposing, in the face of unified world wide opposition, is a full scale military assault against a country that is at war with no one, and has not been for a decade. The planers of this "regime change" themselves project substantial American casualties and expenses in the billions. The destruction in Baghdad would be far worse. While accurate reports of Iraqis killed in the Gulf War are impossible to
come by due to the banishment of the free press by the first Bush Administration, the best estimates available point to one hundred thousand dead as being a relatively conservative figure. Most of those killed by US Forces were at best poorly prepared, and at worst, cannon fodder. We are talking about killing tens of thousands more, giving up untold American lives and spending billions in taxpayer monies for the fulfillment of a legacy - the legacy of Bush family dominance over oil production in the Middle East. 

Bob. 

Coffeebob28@aol.com wrote: 

  <PRE>Actually I cribbed that paragraph from 
someone else and sent it along  because 
  I agree with it. 
*******************

NO PROBLEM, BOB. 
IN ANY CASE, IF YOU AGREE WITH SOMEONE, THE 
CONTENTS BECOME YOUR OWN, AND YOU 'SECOND' IT! 
GREETINGS, 

FRANZ. 
 
 
 

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