Philosophy: Trialogics
(Every Week, Thursday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00 PM. Venezuelan
Time,
at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
ATTACK ON IRAQ
FRANZ (Merida, Venezuela).
CARL (Teaneck, USA).
JESUS (Miami, USA).
SCOTT (Miami, USA).
IRIS (Freiburg, Germany).
STELLA (Mainz, Germany).
JUTTA (Merida, Venezuela).
September 5, 2002.
PLEASE NOTE:
Take all the
typographic errors as Pandemonium
Greetings,
it would take hours and hours to edit this
particularmanuscript;
it would absorb too much valuable
"time" to correct
everything!
Hence, please, accept
our apology! We'll check
the manuscript to avoid
any possible errors that may
cause misunderstanding.
Chats, by their very nature,
are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
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************************************************************
Saying: Hi!
juttafranz:
Hi! All!!!!
nonpositivism:
Hi All. Have no Fear, the Jazzmaster is here!
carlzim:
Hi Franz, Scott, Stella.
jutta_schmitt2002:
Hello all. I've made it.
missnaranjahit:
Hi Jutta, Franz, Carl, Scott!
nonpositivism:
Congrats Jutta on your resourcefulness.
carlzim:
Hi, Jutta.
juttafranz:
Who are absent?
nonpositivism:
Iris it looks like you are shimmering in and out of the Twilight Zone.
juttafranz:
Where's Iris, I invited her!!!
jutta_schmitt2002:
It's a pleasure to see you all.
juttafranz:
Where's Jesus, I invited him?
nonpositivism:
Franz, Jesus told me he would be here. You can try emailing him.
iiiiriiiis:
Hi All! Good evening!
missnaranjahit:
Hi Iris!
iiiiriiiis:
Jutta, Stella, Carl, Scott, Franz - it's a pleasure!
carlzim:
Hi, Iris.
nonpositivism:
Yes, Stella and Iris good to see you after all these weeks.
carlzim:
Iris, Glad you joined the chat
juttafranz:
Can anybody invite gocho24 ?
nonpositivism:
I will.
carlzim:
Stella, glad you joined
juttafranz:
That's Jesus -- not Christ!!!
nonpositivism:
But if he does not respond it's probably because he's in a meeting
or something.
nonpositivism:
We should start anyway; he will probably join us later.
juttafranz:
He's perhaps idle, try later again!!
carlzim:
He's listed as idle.
juttafranz:
Let me know when you are ready to board the Flying Saucer!!
iiiiriiiis:
Thanks, Scott and Carl, good to see you all, too!! I will however have
to
unfortunatey
limit my participation, can only stay for
about
one hour. Alright, ready for take off, Franz.
iiiiriiiis:
I understand that you would give a brief introduction?
nonpositivism:
[I will retry inviting Jesus. Please, no one else try to invite him or
he will
run into the same problem that Iris did. Multiple invites causes session
abend/disconnect
when user declines even if user is in Confernce already.
nonpositivism:
Ok, Franz. We are set for intro!
iiiiriiiis:
Thanks, Stella.
missnaranjahit:
Welcome.
missnaranjahit:
Franz go ahead.
juttafranz:
Jutta has to leave, to reboot, she receives no messages!!
juttafranz:
Just a minute!!!
missnaranjahit:
Ok Franz.
iiiiriiiis:
Yes, let's trys to get Jutta back.
nonpositivism:
Poor Jutta, hopefully she will be rewarded for her valiant persistence
with a
clean connection!
juttafranz:
There she is now!!!
jutta_schmitt2002:
Trouble with YM.
jutta_schmitt2002:
Proceed.
juttafranz:
OK! I proceed!!!
iiiiriiiis:
Welcome back, Jutta.
carlzim:
Guys, I have latest YahooIM version. What version do you have?
carlzim:
I have Yahoo IM5.5
jutta_schmitt2002:
Hi Iris. Good to "see" you.
THE INTRODUCTION
juttafranz:
Folks, concerning our topic today, I have made some pertinent remarks
in various
"Watches" over the last weeks; however, seeing that nobody, except
Konrad
or Carl, has commented or even made a single direct remark, I will post
them again,
to be discussed in today's debate. They touch quintessential elements
of the
current global "crisis", and it makes no sense whatsoever to discuss "novelties",
when we
have not even digested the tip of the ice-berg of our very won relevant
"facts"
of yesterweek.
What we think and say are more pertinent; what some eminent
scientist
says, well, that's his business and responsibility.
missnaranjahit: Welcome back Jutta.
iiiiriiiis: (I have YIM 5.0.0. installed here, Carl.)
juttafranz:
Virtual Dreaming versus Stark Reality
TRUE PATRIOTIC
AMERICANS ARE VERY PROUD OF THEIR MOST
DEMOCRATIC
CONSTITUTION AND ALIEN-FIENDLY PATRIOTIC ACT. WHAT
ARE THEY
WORTH WHEN HISTORICALLY THE INTERNATIONAL OFFICIAL AND
CLANDESTINE
TERRORIST ACTS OF THE AMERICAN NATION AND STATE ARE
EQUIVALENT
TO (AND SOON WILL SURPASS) THOSE OF ANY ROGUE NATION
OF HISTORY:
NERO, DRACO, HENRY VIII, MUSSOLINI, HITLER, STALIN, IDI
AMIN,
PINOCHET, MOBUTU, VERWOERD, ETC.? AND THE USA WILL GO
DOWN IN
HISTORY AS HAVING BEEN THE MOST BRUTAL OF THEM ALL, THAT
IS, IF
ANY HISTORY WILL BE LEFT TO RECORD THIS UNIVERSAL, BARBARIC
FACT!
juttafranz:
HOWEVER, HAVING
STATED THE ABOVE, AS WE EXPLAINED SO OFTEN
ALREADY,
ALL THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "GREAT" MEN OR NATIONS
MAKING
OR BREAKING HISTORY. WHO ARGUES LIKE THAT IS AN
IRREPARABLE
VICTIM OF FORMAL-LOGICAL "FRIEND-ENEMY" FASCIST
DISINFORMATION
AND SHOULD BE SENT TO "REASON" IN THE
PLEISTOCENE.
WHO DOES NOT DARE TO QUESTION THE LABOUR SYSTEM IN
WHICH
WE LIVE, ITS ALIENATING RAMIFICATIONS, IN ANY CASE, IS ALREADY
FAR BEYOND
ANY ACADEMIC REDEMPTION AND INTELLECTUAL
EMANCIPATION.
juttafranz: Can I proceed ....?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz.
missnaranjahit: Proceed Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl is back. Please proceed, Franz.
juttafranz:
THE "NEW
WARS" OF THE USA DO NOT DEPEND ON THE DECISIONS OF ANY
"GREAT"
MEN OR STATES; THEY ARE THE LOGICAL RESULTS OF CAPITALIST
PRODUCTION
-- OF THE SURREPTITIOUS EXPLOITATIVE, DOMINATING AND
DISCRIMINATING
DEVILISH UNDER-WORLD FORCES THAT MEGALOMANIAC
"MAN"
IN HIS EGOISM, AVARICE, LUST AND PERVERSION HAVE SET FREE
ACROSS
THE MILLENNIA -- OF OIL, OF CORPORATES, OF RECESSION, OF
DEPRESSION,
ETC. -- THAT HAS REACHED ITS EXTREME LIMITS OF
SELF-DESTRUCTION,
OF ANNIHILATION OF BILLIONS OF PHYSICAL LABOUR
FORCES,
AND WITH THEM ALL THE DISTURBING PRODUCTS OF MANUAL
LABOUR
-- BEGINNING WITH THE ARCHAIC "TWIN TOWERS" AND THE
OBSOLETE
PENTAGON.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
carlzim: Continue, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002:
The question is, what will be left if they're all done with it, Franz.
Please
continue.
juttafranz: Well, Jutta, that you will tell us next!!
juttafranz: Proceeding ....
juttafranz:
THE AMERICAN
ANTI-LABOUR BULL-DOZER -- BEFORE IT WAS THE FRENCH
REVOLUTIONARY
GUILLOTINE OF THE "REIGN OF TERROR" -- IS AT WORK,
ITS HISTORIC
ROLE IS TO CLEAN UP THE FACE OF THE EARTH, DESTROYING
NATURE
ITSELF, INCLUDING NATURAL HUMAN BODIES, TO ELIMINATE
ANYTHING
THAT EVER WILL REMIND US OF THE LABOUR PROCESS, AND
HENCE
INTRODUCING A VIRTUAL REALITY, AN INTELLECTUAL "CREATIVE"
WORLD,
WHICH AT BEST CAN BE DESCRIBED AS AN ORWELLIAN "MENTAL
HOLOCAUST",
APOCALYPSIS AND ARMAGEDDON. WHO DOES NOT SEE THIS,
WHO DOES
NOT WANT TO SEE THIS, CANNOT SEE THIS ANYMORE, WELL,
SLEEP
TIGHT, DON'T LET THE ABCDE FLEAS OF AMERICAN MASS
DESTRUCTION
BITE YOU! DREAM, DREAM ON, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE,
IGNORANCE
IS BLISS!!
juttafranz: Continuing with the truths of yesterweek ....
jutta_schmitt2002: Go ahead.
juttafranz:
At present,
in this particular Disinformation Age, not essentially different from
the others
before, in the realm of trigger-happy ideas, marauding highway
"battle-tanks",
with terror and horror robbing all vestiges of still independent,
free thought,
are replacing the ideological "think-tanks" of yestermillennium.
Fragile,
innocent minds, not immunized against sophisticated mind control
technology,
political demagoguery and blatant lies, air-conditioned by an
excellent
postmodern education, still staunchly believing in authority,
democracy
and justice, electing their butchers themselves, all truly presented
in their
daily news, and religiously still trusting their eminent, world-renowned
analysts,
more than ever before, are becoming prey, a delicious
delicatessen
of global Orwellian "War is Peace".
juttafranz:
All true
Americans, enjoying their Labour Day, do not have the foggiest
idea what
Labour, Labour Pain and Hard Labour are all about. The majority
of them
are picnicking, know nothing about the struggles of the labour
movement
in Europe and elsewhere, even in the United States itself,
across
the last centuries. They could never imagine that their very
beloved
boss, job and work, that their opulent life style, their consumer
"mentality",
also have generated the current fascist "New Wars"
of mass
destruction.
juttafranz:
But, o,
my country(wo)men, by Jove, be very careful, as can be witnessed daily
in our
talks and comments, even the very "best" of us have a tragic fall, by
swallowing
unnoticed all the American and European racist double-think
and fascist
newspeak, hook, sinker, bait and poisoned shark, all at once! How
easily
we forget what we have learned over the last years, the mind simply
goes blank,
loses all its relations, its theoretical "abstractions", its rational
faculties,
and there we fall down the abysmal ideological cliffs,
and we
drown ourselves again in the stormy sea of isolated, concrete,
empiricist,
pragmatic and positivist "facts" and "pacts".
juttafranz: Please, do not put on any shoe that does not fit you!!!
nonpositivism:
Forgive me, Franz but didn't you tell me the other day you were a
Positivist.:>
nonpositivism:
I'm proudly non-Positivist and have been so for 25 years. But you
seem to
think you can have it both ways, haha.:>
missnaranjahit: Who will invite Iris?
juttafranz:
Scott, I am a positivist; I am not a positivist; I am a positivist
a n d
not a positivist; finally, Scott, I am neither a positivist nor not a positivist
--
I am much,
much more!!!
missnaranjahit: I'll do it.
missnaranjahit: Carl is off now.
iiiiriiiis: Back. Continueth please - thank you, Franz.
nonpositivism:
Franz,
don't expect to get a free ride on that one.:> It's very funny, but also
a tad
intellectually
dishonest.
jutta_schmitt2002:
Franz, there is a strange effect setting in in terms of being a daily
witness
of how this whole system is deteriorating, and yet still being somehow
astonished
about it, although we have spoken all the time about it in our analyses.
It is
like wishing that we were NOT "right" in our analyses and then being
disappointed
about the accuracy of our analyses. jutta_schmitt2002: You can see
all the
way long where the whole thing is going to, and this is a bitter thing to
take.
juttafranz:
Scott, that one is a zillion times worse than "honesty", it is extremely
real,
true,
scientific-philosophic -- provided that you follow me, understand with
precision
what I
am saying.
juttafranz: Yes, Jutta, I'll continue ....
juttafranz:
And, therefore,
they have to affirm, to confirm the only things, the merchandise,
that they
possess, the meagre crumbs that fall from the global, wealthy banquet of
Corporate
America; they have to defend the vile, servile, global exploitation, the
productive
prostitution of physical and/or intellectual labour forces of billions
of
wage-slaves,
their very alienating life-wire, their individual earthly fast dwindling
fire;
and thus, apart from those few anti-war protesters, they have to accept
all the
arrogant lies; and in a soulless world, they have to incorporate the untruths
about
"terrorists" into their very souls, to learn by heart how to be a loyal,
patriotic,
Spartan, Prussian soldier-citizen in a heartless Corporate America,
whose
galaxy of international junkies, hench-men and mercenaries spread the
"infinite
just" word against "absolute evil" to the very chromosomes of
planetary
life.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002:
(Interesting, how and to what degree "production" turned out to
be destruction.)
juttafranz:
Bearden: The
bottom line is this: Left to sweet reason, because of the depth of
its present
bias the scientific community is totally incapable of reacting to the
problem
in time to prevent the destruction of civilization. If we wish to survive,
government
will have to directly force the scientific community to do the job,
over careers
and "dead bodies" (so to speak) if necessary.
But first
the government itself must be motivated to do so.
That is a task
that only the environmental community can do in the extremely
short
time in which it must be accomplished. So it would seem that the most
urgent
task of all, is to educate and wake up the environmental community that
it has
been "had", and it has been "had" since the beginning."
juttafranz:
Jutta, ab ovo, production, labour, work, is/was/will be DESTRUCTION!
juttafranz:
I remember having mentioned that all modes of
production need and have a
specific energy basis, in other words, a
specific Nature-Society relation, on
which their existence depends. In fact, until
now, all depended on a definite
labour relation, Nature vis-a-vis Society,
that's how they produced and
reproduced themselves.
juttafranz:
The problem now is that traditional human and
natural energy is running out,
in other words, production itself becomes
extinct. Instead of a creative, human
self-preservation economy, for a century,
the USA concentrated on a
destructive, wasteful war economy, destined
to convert the earth to ashes.
However, within historic relations, production
has produced its own opposite,
which we determined as creation (nothing
divine about this concept).
iiiiriiiis: Proceed, Franz...I'm following.
juttafranz: Stella & Iris, around? Comments?????
carlzim: Continue, Franz.
missnaranjahit: Around Franz, following.
juttafranz:
Ironically, the USA is performing the dirty work
for Europe, the cleaning up of
the global production mess, while Europe
and its allies are concentrating on
other forms of living and life. In fact,
eventually, the "New Wars" necessarily
will lead to a major confrontation "USA versus
Europe". What is happening now
is just a prelude to global conflagration.
Just look at the following below:
carlzim: Franz, I have a long reply.
juttafranz:
"SPIEGEL ONLINE: Perhaps he (Bush) is afraid
of the role of the "bad guy",
being the one who boycotts the Kyoto Protocol?
Wieczorek-Zeul: However, with the signatures
of Poland and, shortly
to come, of Russia, the protocol will be
effective by the end of this
year even without the USA. After that, I
see a chance, that the US
government will finally have to jump onto
the wagon, due to the
augmenting pressure of their experts and
the very US economy. The
Kyoto Protocol will lead, for member states,
to the fostering of
enterprises with ultra modern energy technologies,
that will profit
from these on the world market. The US economy
will be the loser, if
the Americans do not join in."
juttafranz: Wait a while, Carl!!!
gocho24: Hi all!
carlzim: OK, Franz.
carlzim: Hi, Jesus .
juttafranz:
Before, I warned:
"WE", "WE, AMERICANS", THE PEOPLE,
OF, BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE!
IS IT NOT TIME TO GET RID OF THESE PATRIOTIC
MYTHS?
LET'S LOOK THE "FACTS" STRAIGHT IN THE EYES!
WE, THE WAR-RACKETEERS!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hola Jesús. ¡Qué bueno verte!
iiiiriiiis: Welcome, Jesús.
missnaranjahit: Hi Jesús.
iiiiriiiis: Franz is offline?
gocho24: America's strength is based on economic
development and explotiation.
If seen from that point of view, war is nothing
more than another business.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz has to restart YM.
missnaranjahit: I am going to save the chat.
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Stella, I just was about to asking you.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please repost for Franz, Jesús.
juttafranz: OK!
juttafranz: Continuing ....
gocho24: America's
strength is based on economic development and explotiation. If seen
from that
point of view, war is nothing more than another business.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks.
carlzim: Yahoo IM stinketh. I have only few necessary programs running in background.
juttafranz:
WHAT DID HE
SEE AS THE PROBLEM OF THE "AMERICANS",
OF THE
"PEOPLE", OF THE "MASSES"?
"The trouble
with America is that when the dollar only earns
six percent
over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas
to get
100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the
soldiers
follow the flag."
juttafranz:
And what did we say before the above:
The turmoil
of the "world trade" dust did not subside as yet,
when we
told you already what happened; and who the
terrorist
culprits were.
Concerning
decisive historical turns of global events, if our
analytical,
trialogical, scientific-philosophic incision-precision
does not
impress you, does not make an enlightening bell ring
in the
profundity of your inner brain, then, urgently, you should
go and
"pay" Frantz Fanon or Wilhelm Reich a cordial visit.
juttafranz:
Now look
at the international Reuters report:
PARIS
(Reuters) - French author Thierry Meyssan has news for Americans
preparing
to commemorate the first anniversary of September 11: the attacks
on the
World Trade Centre and Pentagon did not involve hijacked airliners.
"9/11,
The Big Lie," the English translation of Meyssan's incendiary
French-language
book is due to hit U.S. bookstores by the end of this month.
The book
alleges that the world has been taken for a ride over what really
happened
on September 11.
gocho24: hmmmmmmmmm
juttafranz:
The French
have already lapped up Meyssan's theory that a military
faction
in the U.S. government used remote controls to guide two aircraft into
the twin
towers and that a U.S. missile -- not an American Airlines jet --
smashed
into the Pentagon.
"L'Effroyable
Imposture" ("The Appalling Fraud") graced French
bestseller
lists for months despite ridicule from national media. Meyssan hopes
for similar
success in the United States.
"What I hope
is that there will be a debate on what really happened and
that opinion
in the United States and the rest of the world is alerted," he said in
an interview.
juttafranz:
"The U.S.
government has chosen its scapegoats," he said of the U.S.
"war against
terrorism" launched in Afghanistan, whose deposed Taliban rulers
were believed
to harbour suspected September 11 mastermind Osama bin
Laden.
"But we cannot
allow those who are really guilty to go unpunished and
the innocent
to be bombed," said Meyssan, head of the little-known left-leaning
think
tank Reseau Voltaire. Meyssan's book sold little until he was invited onto
a television
chat show in March. His appearance prompted a rush on bookshops
as his
theories tapped into a mistrust of all things American among some
French,
particularly on the left.
gocho24: hmmmmmmmmmm
juttafranz:
The above
is not new at all, I remember saying precisely the same, in many a
watch;
about the guided commercial "missile", long before I explained the
issue,
and Carl confirmed that it was true what I was saying. Hence, folks,
within
this context let us analyse the "Energy Crisis", and the current
"pre-emptive
attack" on Iraq! Any comments to anything said before?
carlzim: Fran,
excellent introduction. History repeats itself, and Howard Fast's
1958 review
of Browder's book (below) transcends
to today's
conflict between moderates and extremists.
http://www.uapress.ua.edu/authors/ryan.html
http://www.trussel.com/hf/classic.htm
_______________________________
The Saturday
Review - Nov. 1, 1958
Classic Capitalism
carlzim:
"Marx and
America," by Earl Browder (Duell. Sloan & Pearce. 146
pp. $3),
is an attempt to explain why Communism has triumphed
abroad,
but not in the States. "The Naked God," by SR's reviewer,
Howard
Fast, was an analysis of the Communist Party.
gocho24: From
a technical point of view, I think having airplanes controlled via
remote
control (over such distances, without control of major satellites) is almost
impossible.
gocho24: I do believe, however, that...
carlzim: By Howard Fast
EARL BROWDER
is a remarkable man. In this time, when a
stubborn
consideration of facts is regarded as old-fashioned and
often
improper, he continues to revere the fact as the most
important
essential in the art of thinking. And in a land where
almost
any discussion of Communism and the Communist Party
invokes
passion and rage, he talks of both with intelligence and
without
anger and without passion.
gocho24: 1)
The plane that "crashed" before reaching DC and whose people were
immortalized
by treating them as heroes, was actually shot down by the US Air Force.
carlzim:
Broadly,
the problem is the world today, although the
direct
treatment of that subject is limited to a single chapter
of this
short but incisive book. Two giants stare at each other
with fear,
distrust, and often with senseless hatred; one is a
Communist
giant, the other a capitalist giant. Behind each of
these
giants is a record of singular historical development,
which,
according to Mr. Browder, can explain the triumph of
"Communism"
in one land, of capitalism in another.
Such explanation
is the subject of Mr. Browder's book,
"Marx
and America."
carlzim: Originally
a series of lectures, they have
been expanded
and annotated. As they now appear, in this small
book of
146 pages, they constitute one of the important political
economic
essays of this decade.
The question
of the peaceful co-existence of the Soviet
Union
and the United States has long intrigued Mr. Browder. His
stipulation
that these two powers could and must live and grow
without
war, was at the root of his long struggle with William Z.
Foster,
and of the eventual expulsion of Mr. Browder from the
Communist
Party.
carlzim:
Whatever
the window-dressing of verbiage and
dogma,
the Communist Party line during the fourteen years since
Earl Browder's
expulsion has revolved around the inevitability of
war -
a dangerous mental illness of the extreme Left that
paralleled,
often with exactitude, the similar insanity of the
extreme
Right. And behind this "dogma of inevitability,'' there
lay a
mendacious and dogmatic corruption of Marxism.
When Earl
Browder attempted to expose and fight this
revision
of Marxism he was sneeringly categorized as an "American
exceptionalist."
carlzim:
Now Mr.
Browder has written a calm and
thoughtful
analysis of the American development in terms of
Marxism
- and in so doing he has laid some of the basis for a
better
understanding of the Soviet revision of Marxism.
He has
not written an abstruse book, but one very much to
the point,
in terms of all mankind; and it would be pleasant if
not wholly
realistic to hope that at least some small part of
mankind
will study it and profit by it.
carlzim: Taking
as his central
theme
the proposition advanced and then qualified somewhat by
Karl Marx
that capitalist society must produce a constant and
absolute
impoverishment of the working class, thereby leaving it
no future
hope but that offered by revolution, he goes on to
analyze,
investigate and refute this doctrine.
In itself.
that might be regarded as an interesting but
unimportant
exercise: people here and in many European countries
know that
the condition of the working man has improved, not
worsened.
juttafranz: Yes, Jesus, there are some unanswered questions. ...
juttafranz: Carl, I am reading ...
gocho24: 2) I still doubt what hit the Pentagon was a plane.
carlzim: But
when Marxist theory has been distorted into
religious
dogma - which dogma is recited by Communist parties the
world
over, and woven into the foreign policy of Communist
nations
- the question of practical experience must be
investigated
and theoretically explained. If capitalism is
something
other - at least in America - than what Karl Marx
understood
it to be, then the role of capitalism in relation to
Communism
and Socialism must be re-examined by those who call
themselves
Marxists.
juttafranz: Jesus, look at this: QUESTIONS UNANSWERED
French media,
which had previously ignored the book, poured scorn on
his claims
in a windfall of press exposure that only served to increase the
book's
notoriety and help publisher Editions Carnot notch up sales of over
200,000.
Meyssan, 45, claims there have been sightings of some members of
bin Laden's
al Qaeda network who were named as hijackers of the planes that
crashed
into the World Trade Centre. He contends that photographs showed the
damage
at the Pentagon to be incompatible with a Boeing 757 airliner crash,
while
both witness accounts and official statements of the crash were
contradictory
and incomplete.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
carlzim: In
support of this, Mr. Browder advances a group of
interesting
propositions - and brings together a good deal of
fact and
information to support these propositions. He asserts
that American
capitalism is the closest thing to a classic
capitalism
that the world has known; that in such a capitalism
the workers
will fight for and win a constant betterment of their
standard
of living and that out of this struggle and the advances
it brings
the workers both capitalist and worker profit
enormously
and constantly.
juttafranz:
And this, Jesus: "One can totally reject the official versions of events,"
he said,
suggesting
the likely suspects were U.S. military insiders hoping to reap the
rewards
of a huge boost in defence spending. Meyssan concedes he lacks
concrete
proof of such a plot as well as evidence of what happened
to American
Airlines Flight 77 and its 64 passengers if it did not
crash
into the Pentagon.
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm following, Jesús, Carl and Franz.
carlzim: Thanks, Jutta.
gocho24: True.... compare the damage to the pentagon to the Building in Oklahoma....
juttafranz:
And even better: this: "There are certain questions to which I cannot
give you
the answer," he said, maintaining that he not have the resources to
investigate
and verify his theories. Meyssan says he is prepared to travel to the
United
States to defend his book -- but only in French, and only on live programs.
He alleges
that one media interview he gave on his book was edited to distort
his comments.
"I have the
sense that some of the U.S. media has made up its mind (on
my theory),"
he said. "There is suspicion at a foreign author questioning the
statements
of their government."
carlzim: He
takes issue with Lenin's theory of
imperialism,
as the last stage of capitalism, declaring that
Lenin
has stood the facts upon their respective heads. Not only
does Browder
deny any necessity for imperialism on the part of
modern
capitalism, but he asserts - and offers some telling proof
- that
one of the major impediments to the development of
capitalism
is imperialism.
Thus Browder
comes to the point of his writing: that in
the oppression
of one nation by another it is not the oppressed
but the
oppressor who pays the greatest price.
carlzim: That's it on Browder, folks.
gocho24: Carl:
I'd like to see his arguments on that.
juttafranz: Jesus, any comments on Carl's interesting "revelations"?
gocho24: I
don't see how capitalism (as seen by the American government) can
not benefit
from imperialism.
carlzim: Jesus, with imperialism, it loses long run.
juttafranz:
And on what I said above about Sept. 11 -- that is being repeated now;
suddenly
the USA wants a "pre-emptive attack" irrespective of the fact that UN
inspectors
would not find weapons of massw destruction, perhaps, cockroaches
or "aliens"
in Iraq!
gocho24: Carl:
How? By being imperalist, you assure the power control of the chain
of production
(besides cheap materials and labor).
gocho24: Sure, you lose markets (the "colonies").
gocho24: But
as long as your market is big enough to offset the smaller markets, what
do you
care?
carlzim: Jesus,
short term until the oppressed stop working cheap. Regarding 9/11..
finally
EMP was revealed to the public. The Crew has been discussing this for several
years.
EMP:
U.S.'S
SECRET WEAPON AGAINST IRAQ Last week when President Bush met with the
ever proper,
suit-clad Donald Rumsfeld in Crawford, Texas, he met with the press and
told them
that when the time comes, a full discussion will reveal all the facts about
Iraq.
President Bush offered a litany of factors that will be fully discussed,
including,
he said,
"new technologies."
carlzim: The
buzz in Washington is that Bush was referring to a
new weapon
the Pentagon plans to use against Iraq, with devastating effect. The
new weapon
is known as an "EMP" or electromagnetic pulse bomb. Such a weapon is
not new
to military planners. When a nuclear device is exploded, it emits a powerful
EMP that
blows transistors and electric circuits for hundreds of miles. A successful
...
carlzim:
... EMP
will knock out all electrical and communication systems. Even cars and trucks
will
stop
working. Modern life will come to a screeching halt. Apparently, the U.S.
has
perfected
a weapon that emits a powerful EMP without the nuclear blast. A
Washington
insider says such a weapon over Baghdad would likely collapse Saddam's
command
and control instantly. "Saddam's Republican Guard won't even be able to
use walk
talkies," the insider tells NewsMax.com. www.reagan.com Mike
Reagan-NewsMax.
gocho24: Translation:
"We don't have an excuse for the public now as to why we
are bombing
Iraq (again). When we think of something, we'll let you know".
gocho24: hmmmmmmmmm
juttafranz:
And, then, we have to busy ourselves with the pan et circenses game,
will they
attack, when will they attack, what is better for us Americans, our deadly
weapons,
we'll get those Arab bastards .... the sons-of-a-bitch, we noble, tough
sons-of-a-gun!!!
carlzim:
Nikola Tesla:
..In his
Manhattan lab, Tesla made the earth into an electric tuning fork. He managed
to get
a steam-driven oscillator to vibrate at the same frequency as the ground
beneath
him (like Ella Fitzgerald breaking the glass with her voice in those old
Memorex
commercials). The result? An earthquake on all the surrounding city blocks.
The buildings
trembled, the windows broke, and the plaster fell off the walls. Tesla
contended
that, in theory, the same principle could be used to destroy the Empire
State
Building or even possibly split the Earth in two.
carlzim: Tesla
had accurately
determined
the resonant frequencies of the Earth almost 60 years before science
could
confirm his results. Don't think he didn't attempt something like splitting
the
Earth
open (well, sort of). In his Colorado Springs lab in 1899, he sent waves
of
energy
all the way through the Earth, causing them to bounce back to the source
(providing
the theory for today's accurate earthquake seismic stations). When the
waves
came back, he added more electricity to it.
gocho24: "....
but even though we support democracy in the Middle East, we can't
stop supporting
Saudi Arabia's Regime because "he's a son of a bitch, but he's
OUR son
of a bitch".
juttafranz:
That's how it goes on hundreds of forums and chats-on-line that I visited
lately
-- with the "Mideast", it is even worse!!
carlzim:
The result?
The largest man-made
lightning
bolt ever recorded - 130 feet! - a world's record still unbroken! The
accompanying
thunder was heard 22 miles away. The entire meadow surrounding his
lab had
a strange blue glow, similar to that of St. Elmo's Fire.
carlzim: That's it on EMP and Tesla.
juttafranz: Carl, which nation will first use "Tesla Energy", and approximately when?
gocho24: Tesla.... the real genius (not Edison).
juttafranz: Or, better, which nation used it first, occultly?
jutta_schmitt2002:
Carl, on the "inevitability of war" issue, this is not necessarily only
a matter
of mentality or "mental illness" of the extreme right and left, but to a
far
bigger
extent of the very nature of capitalist economy in terms of capital investment
and profits
especially in times of crises. On the status of the workers: measured on
a global
scale, I think the progressive pauperization of billions of workers is obvious
to the
eye, and we are not talking about Europe and America. On September 11th:
who
profited
/ profits from it? Not the American war machine, the "post-industrial
military-energy
complex"?
carlzim: USA, Germany and Soviet Union used it first occultly for space programs.
carlzim: Agreed, Jutta.
carlzim: One
main reason why the USA attacked Iraq in 1991, and has continued to
attack
Iraq thereafter has been to prevent a Russia-Iraq weapons/oil
refinement
deal that would enable Russia to pay off its IMF loans.
The USA
wants Russia to be economically weak.
However,
the West will help Russia modernize its military to help protect
the West's
oil interests in the Caspian, and to prevent China from
invading
Russia. Russia will need money to pay the West for military
modernization.
Both Russia and the West want economically weak
Central
Asian ex-USSR countries to exploit their resources.
It gets
complicated.
nonpositivism:
Franz, in all this rhetoric one thing should be understood. It is
dangerous
and simplistic to lump together "Corporate America" as an abstract
entity.
Whether it's Bush, Gates, Turner, Murdoch, or Michael Jordan these are
ultimately
human beings, not alienated abstractions pursuing policy.
jutta_schmitt2002:
Iraq may be the testfield and playground (after Afghanistan)
of new
military devices and "toys". And never forget: what is the "sense" of all
the weapons
if they never get to be used? They have to be used and "consumed"
in order
for the market to stock up with new, improved technology of mass killing.
carlzim: In
the 70's, the Shah was dying of Cancer and going crazy. He wanted
to restore
the grandeur of Persia. He favored Socialists and adherents to Zoroaster
religion,
and killed or imprisoned Islamic militants. The USA perceived an Islamic
republic
was a good alternative to a Soviet style system. So the CIA helped
Khomeini
seize power. The American hostage crisis was staged. The Iran-USA
conflict
is phony. Global oil interests (mostly Western) supply the oil refining
technology
and thus control Iranian oil policy. Today, the USA manipulates
Iran to
offset Iraq,. Some personal sources who worked for the global oil
industry
provided this information.
juttafranz:
Another interesting question: What effect will the use of Tesla
Technology
have on post-heliocentric production? Will it eradicate the
formal-logical
spatial-temporal illusions, and then we could visit God, faster
than light,
in zilli-seconds; and tell what sons-of-a-cloned-bitch he had created,
and what
creative sons-of-a-gun we are??
nonpositivism:
Unfortunately Jutta you make an excellent general point. There
is a great
deal of momentum to use weapons once they have been built. Avoidance
of all-out
Nuclear War since the 50's is something of a minor miracle.
carlzim: Agreed, Scott.
carlzim: Cuban missile crisis.
juttafranz:
Carl, what superior weapons are being made, or can be made with Tesla
Technology,
and for what purpose? To move the planets, to attack aliens??
juttafranz:
Or, could it be used to wipe out war economies like the current US one
out of
the Clouds of Magellan? That would be fine!!! Anything else will be the
same old
bull ... again!!!
jutta_schmitt2002:
Scott, besides, what does Helen Caldicott say with regard to
the nuclear
threat these days? And what about the bringing of war into space
and its
consequences?
carlzim: Franz,
e.g., EMP to knock out electronics, and HAARP to cause
earthquakes
and adverse weather storms.
iiiiriiiis:
Absolutely valid your remarks above, Jutta. In addition, I guess we get
closer
to the matter of "inevitable wars" taking in consideration the politico-economic
processes
first analysed by Smith, combining them with Malthus elaborations on the
"population
principle" (please correct me here, don't know exactly the term in English)
i.e.,
what he wrote on the preventive checks concerning overpopulation, a rate
which
is defined
partly in the 21.th century by the sinking demand of physical labor force.
But please
continueth all, I have to read back.
nonpositivism:
Well, Jutta....she thinks the danger is underestimated. Severely
underestimated.
The Russians were within 10 seconds from pushing the button in
1995 when
they tracked an ambiguous-looking Norweigan satellite. And we all know
about
India and Pakistan. Not to mention all the international arms trafficking
which
is big
business.
juttafranz:
More precisely, does Tesla Technology serve Human Emancipation
relieving
humanity from this current Orwellian war lust, this trigger-happy US
Government?
nonpositivism:
She also thinks that unfortunately Apocalyptic and Millennialist
thinking
in religions such as Christianity is what "vice pays to virtue". Ashcroft,
Pat Robertson
and their cronies have strange religious visions which may affect
their
judgment as to the "inevitability" of a Nuclear Holocaust.
carlzim: Development
of mind control technologies:
http://home.t-online.de/home/Jens_Kroeger/mklinks.html
http://www.gts.net/waynesworld.html
jutta_schmitt2002:
Brilliant comment, Iris! Keep them coming. Thanks, Scott -
excellent
additional insight into the overall "dynamics of insanity".
nonpositivism:
Carl, it can be a lot more obvious. Think of the continuum from
organized
religion to cults, with heavy use of indoctrination, Trance, Hypnosis,
Suggestion
under duress, peer and crowd pressures, etc.
juttafranz:
If not, then Einstein will be proved "right": we'll soon fight the "New
War"
with clubs,
with Neolithic Technology; worse even, a blow to American patriotic hearts,
the good
old Marx would also be right, he prophesied that all this will end up in
pre-Neolithic
reality: in Barbarism!
nonpositivism:
Have you seen a broadcast from Messianic Christian television lately?
That's
a lot more powerful and realistic - on a vast, planetary scale in fact -
than exotic
and unproven
mind control theories.
juttafranz: Awaiting comments to my questions .... reading back ....
jutta_schmitt2002:
Where Einstein meets Marx: In the upcoming (and already existing)
barbarism.
nonpositivism:
In fact, TV is probably the most seductive, comfortable and effective
narcotic
ever invented. Visual Trance and indoctrination par excellence.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fully agreed to this observation, Scott.
carlzim: Good point, Scott.
gocho24: "This
country is founded on War and Beef. Gimme a big, fat T-Bone
steak
so that I can enjoy our guys beating the crap out of the iraquis on CNN...
now that's
enterteinment!" Dennis Leary
nonpositivism:
Trillions would not be spent on Advertising if Propaganda were
not effective.
Remember my intro. months ago on the various techniques of
Propaganda?
carlzim: IMHO
the organization that committed 9/11 are a death cult, should
be fought
accordingly and will end as other death cults ended.
http://www.trancenet.org/groups/faq/faqdc.shtml
How do
you define a "cult"?
AFF, a
cultic studies research and
educational
nonprofit, published this
definition
accepted by many cult
researchers:
juttafranz: Still reading my most interesting -- "to the point" (Greta) monologues!!
jutta_schmitt2002:
Surely, Scott, how could we not remember?! Part of the
continuity
of our chats and debates -- they are here to remember, learn and advance.
juttafranz: reading ....
nonpositivism:
Jesus, as an aside read Eric Schlosser's book Fast Food Nation.
A great
expose on the immense corrupt politics and failure to regulate Meat
Slaughtering,
Preparation and distribution here. Do you know to this day the
US Govt.
has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO RECALL POISONED BEEF IN
THIS COUNTRY?
This is 100% fact. Yes, Americans love the Big Steak -
or the
Big Mac. But there are risks involved. :>
jutta_schmitt2002:
Jesús: shocking but valid and true observation you quote.
Part of
the psychological conditioning of the future (and present) "minds of war":
combine
lust with destruction.
juttafranz:
Carl, I asked a mountain of questions above, for you to answer, did
you read
them?
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: For Carl: reading ....
nonpositivism:
Jesus, as an aside read Eric Schlosser's book Fast Food Nation.
A great
expose on the immense corrupt politics and failure to regulate Meat
Slaughtering,
Preparation and distribution here. Do you know to this day the
US Govt.
has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO RECALL POISONED BEEF IN
THIS COUNTRY?
This is 100% fact. Yes, Americans love the Big Steak -
or the
Big Mac. But there are risks involved.
jutta_schmitt2002:
Jesús: shocking but valid and true observation you quote.
Part of
the psychological conditioning of the future (and present) "minds of war":
combine
lust with destruction.
carlzim: Please repeat, Franz.
gocho24: Jutta: Have that book.... great read.....
nonpositivism:
So maybe the solution for the world's woes will come from Progressive
nutritionists.
Americans should eat more fruits and vegetables, and the world will
reharmonize
in peace and love.:>
carlzim: Jutta, profit first.
jutta_schmitt2002:
The psychological strategy: feel "cosy" and comfortable as
you watch
scenes of slaughter and destruction. But nowadays it is even much easier:
don't
show the pictures, make everybody believe wars are technologically "clean",
never
show civilian casualties and if they leak, speak of "colateral damage".
Sounds
much more clinical, sterile and acceptable.
nonpositivism:
Yes, perfectly put, Jutta. there was a great Star Trek episode about
this 36
years ago called A Taste of Armageddon. It was a veiled criticism of the
Viet Nam
war. In this distopia, 2 planets kept at war for centuries by computer.
Wars were
computer games. Casualites had to report to disintegration chambers.
The ultimate
"clean war", eh?
jutta_schmitt2002:
The clean, high-precision, high-technology wars of the 21st century.
No blood,
no corpses, no stench, no annoyance. Just a clean cirurgical operation
to
remove
"cancers" like Hussein, for example.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Carl. Playing hide and seek? ;)
gocho24: Non: One of the best episodes EVER.
nonpositivism: Jesus, you've seen it? Great!
jutta_schmitt2002: Guys, I guess we have to catch up with a lot of movies here .... ;)
gocho24: Non: But of ourse!
juttafranz:
THESE WERE MY QUESTIONS, CARL:
Carl,
which nation will first use "Tesla Energy", and approximately when? Or,
better,
which nation used it first, occultly? Another interesting question: What
effect
will the use of Tesla Technology have on post-heliocentric production?
Will it
eradicate the formal-logical spatial-temporal illusions, and then we could
visit
God, faster than light, in zilli-seconds; and tell what sons-of-a-cloned-bitch
he had
created, and what creative sons-of-a-gun we are??
nonpositivism: Jesus, You also have read Fast Food Nation? Great!
juttafranz:
Carl,
what superior weapons are being made, or can be made with Tesla
Technology,
and for what purpose? To move the planets, to attack aliens?? Or,
couldit
be used to wipe war economies like the current US one our of the
Clouds
of Magellan? That would be fine!!! Anything else will be the same old
bull ...
again!!! More precisely, does Tesla Technology serve Human
Emancipation
relieving humanity from this current Orwellian war lust, this
trigger-happy
US Government? If not, then Einstein will be proved "right": we'll
soon fight
the "New War" with clubs, with Neolithic Technology; worse even, a
blow to
American patriotic hearts, the good old Marx would also be right, he
prophesied
that all this will end up in pre-Neolithic reality: in Barbarism!
gocho24: Non: And "Lies My Teacher Told Me" another great book :)
gocho24: It's
more about School Texts, but none the less, a great criticism about
how history
is taught.
nonpositivism: Hey Jesus, call me Scott. "Non" is a bit too Philosophical-formal.:>
gocho24: hahahahaahaha
carlzim: Franz,
USA Germany and Russia first used Tesla technology in aerospace
programs
and military purposes.
nonpositivism:
Franz, Einstein did not predict a descent into Barbarism, although he
feared
it could happen worst-case scenario. He felt the best hope was for a real
United
Nations, for cooperation regarding atomic energy, etc. Oppenheimer felt the
same way.
The US Govt. was not interested in these positions and indeed went out
of their
way to destroy or conduct continuous surveillance of them and others like-minded.
iiiiriiiis:
Friends, I must bid goodbye for tonight and continue with some urgent task
here.
Thanks
to all, and see you next Thursday. Bye!
nonpositivism: OK, Iris. Glad you could make it today!
juttafranz:
Carl, but as a current, occult, future, dominant form of energy -- adjusting
their
economies and production in this direction?
missnaranjahit: Bye Iris!
carlzim: Tesla
technology will be used to power upcoming space exploration/colonization
program
for profit because insufficient oil on earth for this.
iiiiriiiis: Bye all, please send me the entire script later on. Ciao!
gocho24: Bye Iris.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Iris. Sorry to see you leave.
carlzim: A group of emancipatory people are conducting a Tesla ether energy revolution.
carlzim: Bye, Iris.
juttafranz: Bye, Iris.
juttafranz:
You know in the 12th century, not yet as a dominant one, parallel capitalism
had used
a "new energy", which eventually broke the backbone of agricultural
feudalism
-- is something similar happening in Los Alamos, in the under-world, or
on
Mars,
in the upper-world?
carlzim: Thanks for joining.
gocho24: Carl:
So will the electric car replace the internal combustion engine in
the next
couple of years... :)
gocho24: I
don't believe in alternative sources of energy and/or space travel
thru worm-holes
until I see it.
carlzim: Jesus, partly, not totally.
carlzim: Yes, Franz.
nonpositivism:
Jesus, as you know there are already some good hybrids on the
road that
get 70 mp gallon. The best are Japanese, including Toyotas. My friend
(in Miami)
works on some of these vehicles.
juttafranz:
Who does this now, will eventually survive, the rest will remain as a
Lady Di,
King Bush, or Sir Blair!!!
gocho24: Scott: Yeah.. I know... the Civic comes to mind ...
gocho24: ... and the Prius.
nonpositivism:
Be careful because they are very high voltage. If you touch the
wrong
component, you can be killed. On the plus side, there are some remarkable
efficiencies.
For example, at a Stop Light, the Engines on these hybrids shut off
completely!
The sounds of silence. It makes sense - why waste energy when the
car is
not moving?
carlzim: No
worm holes, Jesus. Tesla ether electromagnetic particles present
in entire
Universe.
juttafranz:
If this is true, Carl, then this aspect of our chat is urgent; anything
else,
is Sisyphos self-abuse!!
carlzim: Not urgent, Franz. This will happen gradually.
gocho24: Scott:
It shows you live in Florida :) The car has to spend energy to
create
heat during winter :P
gocho24: Carl: I c
juttafranz:
Anything else is already fading into oblivion, what is explaining
everything
about Globalization, about the "New Wars, is this
new energy,
this new development, this is fresh, new and original, the rest is
of yesteryear,
already damned to obsolescence.
carlzim: On Tesla "free" electromagnetic energy energy vs. oil:
The USA has
sufficient oil on its territory to meet its needs, but the oil importers
influence
it to buy imported oil. Tesla free electromagnetic energy
would
meet USA energy needs at minimum cost, and not run dry like oil. Some
Tesla
links are as follows:
http://www.concentric.net/~Jwwagner/
(broadcast
power)
http://www.twelvestar.com/Sourceworks/Tesla%20Radiant%20Energy.html
juttafranz: Excellent, Carl.
carlzim: http://www.chipcenter.com/wireless/ed030.html
http://www.radiumleague.com/Bio.Tesla.asp?name=Biographies
flying saucer
(E.M Field Lift Experiments)(just for Chalcedon:-)
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/tesla_2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/r_ayana/FreeEnergy3.html
http://www.nickf.com/tesla.htm
nonpositivism:
No, folks. You are looking in the wrong place for the solution. It is
primarily
not technical, but political and psychological paradigmatics. The Technology
is immensely
detailed, elaborate and important but its "value-free" orientation should
make us
skeptical looking to any unproven or even proven technologies or engineering
for "The
Answer". A good case can in fact be made that changing the world diet
could
go a long way to changing the world psychology, which could lead to other
interesting
results.
Comments?
juttafranz:
Folks, really we should delve, dive deep. I don't think that we should
use
our precious
chat and precious time to discuss the love life of the dinosaurs, but
things
on the horizon, that are affecting our lives directly, especially our brains.
carlzim: These are interrelated, Scott.
juttafranz: Reading ....
jutta_schmitt2002:
So the fight for oil is, in the final analysis, the fight for already
obsolete
energy sources, Franz. Why the fierceness of this fight over theses
resources
then? Has it still to do with the dying profit production?
carlzim: Franz, I think we're discussing significantly related topics.
nonpositivism:
Like they say, Franz - you are what you eat. Think about the industrial
apparatus
and Free Trade and Agribusiness behind US Styles of consumption, for
example.
Or how excessive sugar and caffeine consumption have altered the American
mind -
even of children.
carlzim: Jutta, oil is needed short term.
carlzim: Who controls oil today will control Tesla energy tomorrow ...
carlzim: ... unless Tesla ether revolutionaries win.
nonpositivism:
Friends, gotta get back to work here. I have found your comments
interesting
and hope vice-versa. I have saved the complete Chat transcript to this
moment
in case you need to reference it later.
juttafranz:
The fight for oil is dinosaur camouflage ... what is on the global order
is
exactly
what Carl describes, Tesla technology; and what Bearden warned about.
Do we
not see the "wars", the year 2007 coming, and what it means?
Of course,
I am not painting "end times" -- I am also not over-exaggerating.
However,
for thousands, for the innocent victims of the Twin Towers, of the
Pentagon,
of Kabul, of Baghdad, and now again, for all of them, it was "end times".
That we
are alive, and can still "hope", that's a privilege, but not science.
carlzim: Thanks for everything. Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002:
You would have to change about everything, Scott: the economic
system,
education, language, thinking, the psychology, the behaviour, the world
diet,
the whole
thing. And then, we would probably not be speaking about homo sapiens
anymore,
because, "historically", the whole process that is culminating in this
globalized
mess IS homo sapiens.
nonpositivism: Adios All, and keep your sense of Humor! It may yet help you survive.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Scott. Be well.
carlzim: Franz, it's oil, natural gas, Tesla technology and minerals.
juttafranz: Bye, Scott!!
carlzim: The issue is control of energy per se.
juttafranz: Gloria sings for you: "I'll survive!!"
nonpositivism:
One postscript for Jutta et al: Agreed, Jutta. It is all Organic. But the
system
does not require convergent simultaneous pressure from all angles to change
in a favorable
fashion. Alter the balance in even one critical direction, and the entire
system
"flexes" to achieve a new equilibrium. So one component can be hugely
important
even if just slightly altered. Think about it............Franz, you
may yet
have a career as singer in the Cyber-cafes of this century!:))
juttafranz: Yes, Nearer my Coffee to Thee!!
jutta_schmitt2002: I'll make a HUGE effort in this sense, Scott, take it for granted! ;)
jutta_schmitt2002: I'll flap my wing!!!
nonpositivism:
Jutta, yes you and the other conscious "butterflies" may have
enormous
revolutionary potential even in ways as yet undreamed of...........Until
next time,
Imaginative ones.........!
juttafranz: So, what do you say about the oil camouflage?
carlzim: I invited Jesus.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Jesús!
gocho24: Thanks guys.
carlzim: Hi, Jesus.
gocho24: Or "blokes", for you british-inclined.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Scott. Keep flapping your wings, too!
missnaranjahit: Bye Scott.
missnaranjahit: Guys I 'llleave too now.
missnaranjahit: It was intresting to follow the discussion.
gocho24: Bye!
juttafranz:
Globalization does not even dream about manual, physical muscles
anymore,
rather about the electro-magnetic muzzle of a gun! Also, it dreams
about
Tesla Energy, and not about oil precisely; some anti-Bush, anti-Blair,
anti-Schroeder
corporations may still be in slumber, but the life sciences, genome
technology,
nanotechnology, space travelling, etc., are all wide awake.
jutta_schmitt2002: The Hide-and-Seek-Messenger at its best today ...
carlzim: Bush
attempted to wean dependence on
foreign
oil by getting the ANWR lands drilled. Instead, the anti American liberals
decried
the area as "pristine" and scared legislators into voting against the forward
thinking
measure. Oil subsitudes will not come overnight, so we need to think of
possibilities
such as offshore drilling and ANWR or we may see gas prices over
3 bucks
a gallon...and with many areas without adequate mass transit,
our economy
will be in shambles!
jutta_schmitt2002:
Carl, are all Americans, who are dissenters of the mainstream
opinion
and who are environmentalists, being classified as "anti Americans" in the
USA today?
juttafranz:
That's clear, Carl, it's not an overnight stock exchange, but, it is
immensely
more powerful than the existing, dying, oil dependent production;
and what
is new, more powerful bit by bit, atom by atom, drop of black gold,
by drop,
extinguishes its breath, every ticking "milli-second": that's what is
historically
important here -- and also for us, for emancipation in general.
BYE ....
{ a few minutes
lost}