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Saying:  Hi!

nonpositivism: Hola Amigos!

josuecc: Hola a todos!!!!
josuecc: Hi, all !!!!

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.

gocho24: Hi there, everyone!

juttafranz: Hi, Folks!! Be patient, Jutta got stuck!!! Choose BOLD!!!!

nonpositivism: bold Bolder BOLDEST!

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Jesús! How have you been doing? Hi Scottie, hello Franz. Where are all the
rest? Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

juttafranz: CARL, HI !

gocho24: Bold
j
utta_schmitt2002: Hi Carl. Good to see you.
jutta_schmitt2002: Where are Iris, Stella and Josué?

josuecc: Hi Jutta!!!!

juttafranz: Stella & Iris confirmed, where are they?

josuecc: Hi, Carl.
josuecc: Hi, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hola Josué - !qué bueno que puedes asistir!

josuecc: Hi, Jesús.

carlzim: Hi, Franz, Jutta, Scott, Jesus, Josue.

nonpositivism: Carl, good to see you.

carlzim: Glad to see all.

uttafranz: There's Irislein!!!

Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: This Crew is getting bigger and bigger. However, two ladies are still missing,
gentlemen.

juttafranz: Where's Stella!!!

gocho24: Hi Josue, the master of Market Socialism (A.K.A : Humane Rightist Movement)

josuecc: jajajajajajaja "Izquierda de Mercado", OJO!!!!

iiiiriiiis: Good evening All!

jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Iris. Glad you made it!
jutta_schmitt2002: Good early afternoon.

carlzim: Hi, Iris.

osuecc: Hi, Iris.

iiiiriiiis: I sent an invite and a message to Stella but it seems she did not receive the invite - and no
response from her so far.

juttafranz: Perhaps, before Yahoo gets wild, let's begin -- and Stella would reach us later.
juttafranz: So, if you are ready, tell me to proceed ....

iiiiriiiis: Ready.

jutta_schmitt2002: I'm ready, Franz. Iris, please tell Stella to re-login.
jutta_schmitt2002: I don't reach her.

The fun begins ....
 

juttafranz: 12th September, 2002  

ACROSS "HISTORY", ETERNAL BRUTAL
TERRORISM AND GENOCIDE BY SOCIAL ORDER.

General Introductory Remarks.

iiiiriiiis: She obviousely does not receive any of the messages I sent off, Jutta!

jutta_schmitt2002: Shame.

jutta_schmitt2002: Same here.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, Carl, Josué, Jesús - try to invite Stella please.

Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit is not available.

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, let's start, Franz.

juttafranz:
Folks, in my last "Watches", I said most what I want to introduce today briefly. If you read them
carefully already, then the context of what follows is crystal-clear. More than ever before, due to our
elevated levels, degrees and mensions of perception, cognition and excellence, we have great difficulty
in our analyses to distinguish between traditional, cultural and civilized virtual reality (which is also a
reality) and true historic reality (which encompasses the former). Mixing up the two causes confusion,
inaccuracy and misunderstanding.

nonpositivism: ready.

juttafranz:
For example, obviously, all that has been said officially by the global disinformation campaign about
the tragic events of September 11 and their terrorist aftermath is part and parcel of a "Big Lie" that
has multifarious historic ramifications; we criticize individual obvious untruthful aspects, single
appearance forms of this Lie, but, in the last analysis, we swallow the whole disinformative bait. In all
probability, there was not a single "Arab terrorist" in any one of those planes, hence, what has this all
got to do with bin Laden, Al Qaeda or Afghanistan?

carlzim: Continue, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Proceed, Franz.

juttafranz:
As Aristotelian major syllogistic premise, we accept the official lie that bin Laden is the only
"master-brain" behind the Al Qaeda and Taliban war operation against the USA; as minor premise,
searching for him, dead and alive, with $25 million on his head, we accept that bin Laden is a
dangerous Arab terrorist; conclusion, in all our ideas, thoughts, debates and chats: nothing else,
nobody else, than bin Laden and his Al Qaeda terrorist group are responsible for all the current
terrorism on a world scale. We do not trust our own minds, we need eminent, erudite, world-renowned
intellectual backing, without even being able to check who is who. Don't forget, folks, for us, your own
flexible, oscillating mind is the most accurate and efficient; anything else you have to take for granted.

iiiiriiiis: "True". Proceed, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, I think in all probablility there are more people on the planet that do not
allow their brains to be conditioned in these simple friend - enemy schemes, and try to see the
background, the "big picture" as far as they can. The above scheme may work for those directly
affected.

juttafranz: Yes, Jutta. continuing ....

juttafranz: Anything else is simply "infinite justice" against "absolute evil", simply "pre-emptive
strikes"; in this context we have to see the real, tragic and the irreal, sadistic crocodile tears of the
September 11 pan et circenses yesterday. I could quote such arguments, their patriotic or ideological
essence, in most of our own off-guard correspondence, in our chats and in our forums, and you could
see what I mean. But, this is not necessary, it is very clear what is happening to all of us, including me.
And, we are affected by tons of other "big lies", of eternal terror by social order, for example,
"racism", and we masticate and ruminate them daily; or daily violation of women -- those millions,
including US presidents (listen to the Watergate tapes), that utter every minute "s.o.b." or "m-f.", demonstrate their rapist inclined minds.

juttafranz:
Certainly, we all urgently need scientific, (re)percussive brain-surgery, philosophic, incisive mental
check-spelling and emancipatory, decisive, historic full-exorcism of newspeak, of its "forbidden fruits"
(thus revealing truths like "I myself did it!"). In patrian history, caring for his own egoistic, class
interests, Big Brother was qualitatively already a zillionfold more brutal than in the case of September
11; only patriotically we are forbidden to know, to think, to remember this; we ourselves delete these
realities from our own brains. Hence, till today, in our minds, bin Laden is the one and only infidel.
That he is a CIA-skunk, a US-rogue, in other matters, that's beyond doubt, but let us get things
straight, it is another story, even if it is related to the "Big Lie".

jutta_schmitt2002: I'm afraid planetary reality today has gone way beyond the wildest nightmares of
George Orwell, Franz.

juttafranz: Yes, Jutta ...
It is extremely arduous to emancipate oneself, who is a genuine, patrian, social product of the very
state violence, military terrorism and globalized alienation, that we so deeply abhor. Whether we know
it or not, whether we accept it or not, in reality, we were born in violence, we live in terrorism, and we
will die in alienation. This is part of our earthly essence and existence. In my previous "watches",
dedicated to September 11, I made this point very clear -- it is not necessary to repeat the historic
examples again, but, please, bear them in mind, have them present in our current chat memory.

jutta_schmitt2002: Nice perspective, nice prospects ....

iiiiriiiis: Agreed, Jutta and Franz - and University reality has gone way beyond my wildest nightmares...
Proceed...

jutta_schmitt2002: hahah, Iris, mis condolencias!

iiiiriiiis: Gracias mi pana!

juttafranz: Yes, and furthermore .....

Surely, on this planet were roaming many "good guys", even "good guyetrices or guyesses", like Jesus
Christ, Joan of Arc, Lady Di, Mother Calcutta, the "founding fathers", "true Americans", Nelson
Mandela, Wilberforce, Albert Schweitzer, Gandhi, etc.; also that among the "common folks",
especially in our own families, where blood is thicker than water, there are many sweet, loving people,
with nearly perfect humanistic morals, walking in upright gait, with bewitching morale.

jutta_schmitt2002: De nada.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hm, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Continue your argument.

juttafranz:
This is also true, but they do not not express the paramount, predominant truth of yester-millennium
on Earth; they could not change the terrorist direction of world affairs. Also we will not accomplish
this divine seven day wonder; it simply never ever was on the patrian historic labour agenda. Who
thinks otherwise, well, no problem, blessed are the pure of heart, because they will see God! Don't cry
for me, Heavenly Gate!!

juttafranz: Man is supposed to be a species that is able to think. Thinking is not mere "abstracting",
and then like a clouds, or in clouds, to ascend in heavenly glory to the "ivory tower" of absolute,
infinite, eternal sapience. Self-Thinking is contradicting, relating, innovating, renovating, surpassing.
It has to be learned, cared for, cultivated and nurtured every millimetre and millisecond of earthly
existence. It is not a passive receptacle, a waste-paper basket, a sewerage system, a stinking quagmire,
an encyclopaedic words and language merchandise deposit, chronic mental amnesia. It needs global,
galactic anamnesis, an excellent historic memory, effective delete software, pioneering, adventurous
hardware and a loving, tender, fiery, human, auroralike exodus.

gocho24: Amen to that.

juttafranz: Yes, folks, many "think" that thinking is abstracting, extracting, exploiting at surplus rate!

gocho24: Sorry, Religion doesn't get along with "thinking" too well.

juttafranz: Agreed, Jesus!!

jutta_schmitt2002: I see your point, Franz, however it is hard to swallow for all those (still or recently)
pertaining to the negation of the system. As world fascism is on the rise, more and more people are not
willing to simply swallow what is closing down on them. It seems there is a radicalizing effect of current
world affairs, that "shakes" and wakes people up, especially those on the shadow side of the coin. That
may put some oil into the rusty neurons.

juttafranz: D'accord, Jutta.

juttafranz:
Having said all these, and the proof of all is in the eating of the praxical-theoretical-emancipatory
pudding ourselves, it is obvious what is the historic panacea against all patrian "Big Lies". it is also
crystal-clear that everything that glitters is not necessarily gold (a "human being" or "history"), it may
be a twinkling diamond or star (a transhistoric emancipator). If, here on Earth, a visitor from the
divine kingdom could walk around with us, and if we could even crucify him, -- in this case, I would never come back, return to visit this violent ,terrorist planet again --  well, what else in history
could also be roaming around on this planet!

jutta_schmitt2002: So let the neurons roll on ...

carlzim: Does it go along with lottery? The number 9-1-1 won lottery in USA yesterday.

Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has joined the conference.

iiiiriiiis: Stella! Glad you made it!

nonpositivism: Stella, hope your here to stay!

carlzim: Jutta, let the TV reruns roll on.

carlzim: Hi, Stella.

missnaranjahit: Hi all, sorry for the delay, I could only see Scott online, there was a problem with
Yahoo.

josuecc: Hi, Stella.

juttafranz: To end my introduction ....

jutta_schmitt2002: Stella - get rid of those handcuffs.  Carl, TV "pseudo-neurons"...

juttafranz:
Similarly, also other contradicting things and other strange events could be "true" on this planet, and
not only those "facts" that we have been taught, about whom we had been informed, in which we
staunchly believe; to know all these the "starting point" is to think of, by and for ourselves. Hence, we
should be very, very careful with our "I disagree ... " statements, no matter how true they may seem. A
wise, intelligent, cautious thinker never merely "disagrees", (s)he always thinks first, contradicts,
agrees a n d disagrees, and then only, could (s)he "neither agree nor disagree" thereafter. That's all for
now, folks. eagerly awaiting your agreeable contributions and agreeful comments.

-----oOo-----

THE DEBATE ENSUES ....
 
 

missnaranjahit: Hahaha Jutta...

carlzim: Yep, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your introduction, Franz. Carl, do you have some comments first?

carlzim: Franz, thanks for the excellent introduction. Will history repeat itself? After USA defeated
Japan with atom bomb in WW2, it substituted Western style Capitalist democracy for the Emperor led
feudal system. Will USA do the same (without atom bomb) in Iraq?

josuecc: Excelent introduction, Franz!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Please proceed, Carl.

nonpositivism: Carl, for 100 years the Western Empires have tried to placate and police the World's oil
heavyweights. But they have been very, very reluctant to try to occupy them. That will remain the case.

carlzim: Regarding the Iraq situation… Iraq's leader is not well received (best known as a pain in the
ar*e), but Iraq's rights of a sovereign nation should be addressed. If the rights of a sovereign State are
no longer of value, this plays into the hands of globalists who want to substitute a one world
government for sovereign nations.

juttafranz: Hi Stella! Now we are "Eight Musketeers", the highest number ever!!

carlzim: Scott, it may be done without occupation.

juttafranz: Sorry that you missed the intro -- but you will read it later.

nonpositivism: The USA (no "sane" entity) is not prepared to deal with 1 billion Muslims under its
fiefdom. The USA also has no colonial experience, its foreign policy is very adolescent and immature.

missnaranjahit: Yes Franz, I'll read later!

jutta_schmitt2002: There IS no "national sovereignty" anymore, Carl, due to the very "economic
interdependence" of the world market, to name one single factor.

carlzim:
Now, if by chance, we take into account some other nations that also are not well received, should they
also be invaded? Who will be next on the chopping block, because they don't fit into the agenda.

Just because, an idea is brought about to become public opinion, why must we all follow?

nonpositivism: It thinks it can bomb nations into compliance or oust regimes at will, but this is far
from clear-cut and sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

iiiiriiiis: Thank you Franz. I'm reading back... proceed, please.

carlzim: Scott, I'm addressing that issue now.

nonpositivism: IN 1991 the USA NEVER considered occupying Iraq. That should tell us something.

jutta_schmitt2002: If it was for posession and fabrication of weapons of mass destruction, USA, China,
Russia, France and Israel would have to be invaded next.

nonpositivism: All it wants is "negative" stability and the flow of oil.

carlzim: When the gun is discharged, will the people of other nations--Arabs, Iraqi, Iranian,
etc.-assume that if the USA ever gets mad at us, will they be next?
Will they band together and develop their own nuclear proliferation?

IMHO, fear is not the answer. I advocate a rational diplomatic discussion and common agreement
with free trade to cut the ice.

nonpositivism: Correct, Jutta. The USA position is laughably hypocritical. Even a 6 year old could see
this.

carlzim:
Although Iraq will have a nuclear weapon. How will they use it if the opposition makes clear it has a
first strike advantage?
If the sword is pointed at your heart for a first thrust, what is the advantage of drawing the bow?

carlzim:
Iraqis are not stupid, and people like us. Like us, they're trying to make the best of what life offers.

nonpositivism: Carl, that sounds theoretically attractive, but you're wrong (or the authors are) the
USA seriously wants negotiations. It doesn't. The Iraqis aren't too keen on them either. And "Free
Trade" between vastly unequal nations only augments the inherent divide in wealth and power, as
typified by USA vis a vis Latin America for the last 50 years.

nonpositivism: I think the USA's philosophy is "War is Peace".

juttafranz: You call that "philosophy", Scott?

juttafranz: Strange what all in the USA is "philosophy"!

nonpositivism: Yes, cuts right to the core. Philosophy doesn't have to be elaborate, German or 1000
pages. John Dewey is more like it.

nonpositivism: In this case, distill it to the minimum language. There's a lot of Philosophy in Orwell.

carlzim: Scott, I posted my own view. I know the USA and Iraq presently don't want this. I suggest
that they change their thinking.

gocho24: At least, if the purpose is war, the US should put it on the table for the UN Security Council
to take part in it.

juttafranz: I'm sure Michael Jackson is also a philosopher. And Michael Jordan too. And Mariah
Carey, certainly.

gocho24: Bush this morning just "announced" to the UN Security Council that the US is "going to
war"...

josuecc: D´accord Franz!!

carlzim: Jesus, the USA finances the UN.

nonpositivism: Indeed, Franz, now you're getting it. Jesus: I wish the UN were more of a world force,
but the USA and other countries often ignore them. World power is too unipolar.

nonpositivism: Carl, the USA regularly has not paid its dues to the UN. A sad and ludicrous game that
benefits no one.

gocho24: Carlzim: I know that first hand... I worked for the UN.

jutta_schmitt2002: What difference does it make, Jesús, if the UN security council gives green light or
not? As far as I know, what they call "international law" does not foresee the invasion of a country
just because they are building up weapons. This simply falls under military agression, and IT IS
ALREADY IN FULL SWING.

gocho24: Jutta_schmitt: Agree...

josuecc: UN securuty council or UN war council???

nonpositivism: You are correct, Jutta. NATO charter allows mutual defensive action, not pre-emptive
strikes with no proven immediate danger.

nonpositivism: This is proving embarrassing and a bit difficult for the Texas-man.

carlzim: Scott, the USA finances UN behind the scene. The purpose of the no-dues BS is to avoid
abiding by UN decisions.

carlzim: The US created the UN.

jutta_schmitt2002: The talk about an "imminent" war on Iraq is disinformation - US troops are
already IN Iraq, and substantial, military Iraqui infrastructure has already been destroyed. The US
soldiers in Iraq at this very moment constitute "illegal combattants" - they have nothing else than the
same status as the locked up Afghan fighters in Guantánamo Bay.

juttafranz: Correct Carl, UN = USA!

carlzim: Europe and Russia support Iraq for economic, not ideological reasons.

nonpositivism: That's exactly the point, Carl - regardless of if/what the USA "finances" behind the
scenes, it uses the body exclusively for its national interests, building consensus there or ignoring its
decisions when it feels like it. The UN was dominated by the USA, but was never envisioned to be a
USA puppet much as some would like it to be. That's true from Eleanor Roosevelt on down.

josuecc: UN=USA+United Kingdom.

juttafranz: Hence, Mandela asked that Saul should decide for Paul to attack Iraq! He seems not to
have understood the above fatal, mortal equation.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, agreed, behind the scenes are hard, economic interests from all sides, and
nothing else.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

iiiiriiiis: Scott, on your reply above to Carl I would like to add that the politico-economic internal laws
of what is termed "Free Trade" (i.e., free flow of the production forces capital and labour) led to the
politico-economic scenario of vastly "unequal nations" - and the "most unequal nations" amongst
them are or have already vanished from the sceen. The more "equal nations", however, are, together
with their "nation state constitutions", about to follow the latter.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

carlzim: Thanks, Franz.

juttafranz: Iris, wow!! You are really thinking now!!

nonpositivism: What has generally gone on in the last 50 years under the auspices of the UN is
international terror committed by Major against Minor powers. That may be cynically what the
Advanced Western or Russian Empires like, but it's a perversion of its purpose even as seen by a
conservative like Woodrow Wilson.

nonpositivism: For any thinking observer, what is going on now with Bush lobbying the UN is strictly
for cynical "entertainment" value.

nonpositivism: Verbal diarrhea...What vice pays to virtue.

juttafranz: Scott, White House, Pentagon, NASA pan et circenses; they must have fun too.

iiiiriiiis: I'm trying hard to do what I'm not allowed to even dare to at the university, Franz ... Proceed
please...

jutta_schmitt2002: The degree that current disinformation and manipulation have reached is outright
disgusting! Each and every event, opinion, and discussion is framed into predetermined schemes.
Events like yesterday's memorial of the 11th of September victims are carefully being manipulated and
steered with the help of the, mass media, currently the propaganda spearhead for "Amercia's new
War"! They carefully select, who is to be mourned and who not. What about all those thousands who
just slipped and slip beyond the official, a thousand fold repeated slow-motion pictures of death and
mayhem in New York, who slip beyond the mass medias' reporting and covering their stories, to where
deadly silence starts, to the killing fields of Afghanistan, ...

jutta_schmitt2002: ..... where people just as innocent as the New Yorkers had to die "in revenge" and
where no TV camera captured and repeated a hundred times their death agony for the world public to
see and to imprint into their memories forever?! (The death of thousands of Afghans and soon of
many more people all across the planet are simply being downgraded as "collateral damage" anyway).

iiiiriiiis: Nothing to add to your most valid remarks, Jutta. Fully agreed.

nonpositivism: Correct, Jutta. But it would be unrealistic to expect any different response from a
nation or tribe which has been attacked or bombed the way New York was. They would not go out of
their way to rehabilitate the enemy or think rationally.

juttafranz: Iris, the university is not for you to think, it is to put brain-cuffs around your skull, to hold
secret Smithian loving hands, while they cut your spinal column from your body, only then, you will
become a philosopher par excellence, summa cum laude!

juttafranz: Much luck with me, Josue!!

gocho24: I agree as well, but don't dare to say it on TV ... or you'll risk the Communist label.... or
"You are with us or against us".

nonpositivism: The problem is that the USA is trying to make the enemy "diffuse"...there are terrorists
everywhere. Such a Philosophy <=> "War is Peace".

jutta_schmitt2002: True, perhaps, for the immediate victims, Scott, but not for those who know "the
big picture" and who are all directly implied in the setup and success of this event, which involves the
entire security and intelligence apparatus, and also the very government of the USA.

juttafranz: Scott, what is the difference between Philosophy and Ideology? Is Philosophy Ideology, and
vice versa?

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back on board, Carl.

josuecc: Yes, Franz!!!

nonpositivism: The truth: There are *some* terrorists *some*where who must be snuffed out,
intercepted, interdicted, arrested, warred against if necessary. Bush and cohorts by not making their
case more specifically are losing credibility. I also think he wants to boost the Republican performance
in the elections in 2 months. The timing is not coincidental.

carlzim: Thanks, folks. I had to reboot.

nonpositivism: Franz, sure: Philosophy and Ideology are deeply, inextricably interwoven.

juttafranz: Mmmmm .... what do you think, Jutta, Iris?

jutta_schmitt2002: That is exactly what this kind of "government" needed, Scott: an "overall present"
enemy, "invisible but THERE", potentially lurking behind each street corner and in each paper
envelope - this is the necessary PSYCHO TERROR the ordinary folks in the USA need in order to
subscribe to ANYTHING that the Bush government says it will do to "counter terrorism".

carlzim: Scott, agreed about Bush. Bin Laden is no longer important.

juttafranz: Josue, what did I teach you about Ideology, about Philosophy?

carlzim: Franz, the Invisible Empire.

nonpositivism: Carl, that is very scary. For me it's an immediate grave loss in whatever credibility and
latitude I was prepared to give him last year, when he did make that one great speech.

juttafranz: Why is Terrorism Ideology, and not Philosophy at all?

juttafranz: What operates with the "Big Lie" as its essence? Philosophy or Ideology?

juttafranz: If Philosophy lies, can it be the "lover of wisdom"?

iiiiriiiis: The empirical data don't allow me any other statement as to reiterate that I fully agree on your
remark on the educational system, prohibiting to RELATE, to think, Franz. However, allow me to set
the records straight with reference to the following: my "love affair" as you termed it with Adam Smith
1) did not over as yet, and 2) did not exactly fall into the realm of "brain-scuff-performance".

nonpositivism: Franz, of course Terrorism and counterterrorism always have ideologies. Think back to
Michael Collins, or Begin, or Gerry Adams, the "United" Kingdom, "self-determination", "freedom,"
"by whatever means necessary", etc.

juttafranz: How often, how much Ideology tells lies?

missnaranjahit: I see Iris ... *hiding*

jutta_schmitt2002: And the mass media are playing a CRUCIAL role in the Psycho Terror, their
selective and careful "reporting" and "interpreting" events. I ask: where were and are the mainstream
TV cameras, when it comes to covering the "less convenient" deaths (how "convenient" were the New
York and American deaths in order to justify a rampage of revenge, of slaughter and bloodshed,
already accomplished and still to come)? Where were and are the mainstream TV cameras when it
comes to cover the "inconvenient" deaths, the permanent death toll thousands and hundreds of
thousands and millions of people have to pay, who are dying by the hand of the very established world
economic and financial order? ...

iiiiriiiis: Don't worry, Stella.

carlzim: Here's an Interesting analysis from Jane's Defense newsletter:
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid020905_1_n.shtml
05 September 2002 Al Qaeda: one year on

"As the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks against the US approaches, there has been the
predictable round of media features focusing on the successes and failures of the 'war against
terrorism'. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that most of the initial 'war aims' have not been
achieved...

juttafranz: Are we currently victims of American Ideology or of US Philosophy?

josuecc: Ideology=manipulate, Philosophy=create

jutta_schmitt2002: .... What about, for example, all the innocent Iraquis who would have just wanted
to live their lives but die yearly as a consequence of the sanctions imposed on Iraq (and not to mention
the slaughter that is still to be accomplished amongst them)?

carlzim: Perhaps the first and foremost mistake in the immediate aftermath of 11 September was to
personalize the conflict. By making Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden the main target, anything short
of a confirmed death or a living captive was doomed to fall short of popular expectation.
The second error - and this may prove even more costly in the longer term - was to assume that a
military victory over the Taliban regime in Afghanistan would inflict severe damage on Al-Qaeda's
operational capability. In fact, although the Taliban did provide invaluable political patronage for Bin
Laden and his network, Al-Qaeda was never truly dependent on the Taliban.

juttafranz: With what do you counter Ideology? With bombs?

carlzim: Although it is true that the ousting of the Taliban has certainly ended the training of
Al-Qaeda's foot-soldiers in Afghanistan - and this is no small achievement - what has not been stopped
is the group's ability to raise funds or operate its international network of sleeper cells and safe houses.
In fact, in the view of many within the Western intelligence community, Al-Qaeda is probably stronger
now than it was before 11 September.
The reasons for this are complex, but key factors include the enormous growth in grassroots support
for the group throughout much of the Islamic world.

nonpositivism: Philosophy may literally mean "Love of Wisdom" in its etymology from the Greek, but
more substantively it means a world-view, a holistic perspective or perspectives. In the sense it doesn't
matter whether you consider the USA's actions to be based on Ideology or Philosophy. In truth, within
the USA they are considered identical.

carlzim: Repeated attempts by leading Western politicians to portray the militants as a tiny faction
without mainstream support is admitted privately to be more reflective of a general concern to avoid
giving the impression that the 'war against terrorism' is actually a 'war against Islam'.

juttafranz: With what do you eliminate Philosophy from human minds? Not with Newspeak,
double-think, War is Peace, Ideology?

carlzim: Of course, it is undeniable that a great many Muslims (particularly those living in the West)
were genuinely horrified by events of 11 September. However, it is also impossible to suppress the fact
that Al-Qaeda and its leader enjoy widespread popular support throughout the Middle East. What the
group has managed to do, with notable success, is to combine powerful anti-Western sentiment with
proof that it has the capability of striking at the heart of the US.

josuecc: Ideology=manipulate, Philosophy=create

juttafranz: I think my mere questions have clarified the issue.

carlzim: At a time when Washington is seen as Israel's key ally, it has been very easy for Al-Qaeda to
present itself as the Islamic world's means of striking back against unequal forces. The West
underestimates the attraction of Al-Qaeda's propaganda message to many Muslims at its peril.

jutta_schmitt2002: Bin Laden is THE distraction of the public from claiming full investigation into the
events and establishing the REAL responsibilities, coauthorship and cooperation!

carlzim: Another key political mistake has been to focus on secondary distractions, such as the 'axis of
evil', while soft-peddling on the principal sponsors of Al-Qaeda: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The
unpalatable truth is that these two 'allies' of the West have played an undeniable role in the growth of
Bin Laden's group into an international terrorist network."

juttafranz: All my students, except Josue, have misunderstood me!!

nonpositivism: Carl, Bush would be a lot smarter if like Pipes he made some more tangible, specific
and provable declarations such as "10 - 15% of World Islam" supports or is sympathetic to militant
violent terror against the USA and its allies.

jutta_schmitt2002: Al Quaeda sits, in part, in the White House in Washington - when will they ever get
it?!

carlzim: Scott, Bush doesn't want to be specific.

nonpositivism: The USA will not fight against phantom or unproven enemies. The fiasco in Viet Nam
proved that..

carlzim: Bush, Cheney, etc. are oil people.

nonpositivism: Correct, Carl. I actually Bush on thin political ice here. He is in a bad situation and his
political acumen and maturity are weak. That plus he's got the burden of Arabist Oil contacts in his
family and businesses going back decades.

gocho24: The hate of the muslim world is offset by the economic interest the region has as the primary
oil providers to the Western World.

juttafranz: In that case, and only in this one, they are not "racist", Carl. They love "Black Gold"!

nonpositivism: The public is giving him latitude right now, but as 9/11 recedes he could well go the fate
of his father. Good Riddance as far as I'm concerned.

carlzim: Scott, portrayal of the enemy is unimportant. "Socialist" Vietnam is the world'slargest
manufacturer of Nike sneakers.

jutta_schmitt2002: For those among us, who still happen to take democratic constitutions and
declarations of human rights serious, here is a price question: Whatever happened to the basic
principles in the American Declaration of Independence?: ….

carlzim: Vietnam supports USA in war on terror.

nonpositivism: Jesus, it's more complex than that. The Oil alliance benefits only a few Arabs. The majority are even worse off than they were before the discovery of Oil there. I suggest reading materials by Dr. Bernard Lewis from Princeton. Good background for what you are discussing.

jutta_schmitt2002: .... "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." ?

juttafranz: Jutta, they are still basic, now rotting in the basement of the White House.

carlzim: Scott, true. But if USA withdraw from Mideast, all Arabs would be more worse off.

nonpositivism: Jutta, the spirit of Revolutionary radicalism, mass civic action and protest in America was only short-lived. And once America transitioned from Agrarian to mass Industrial Urban civilization, the dream of a democratic agrarian paradise of self-govt. and private property essentially died. We have the shell today, not the substance of this legacy.

jutta_schmitt2002: I think they still apply Franz, to this very day! We only have to apply Newspeak in the New Millennium and thus make some translation effort here: "all Men"have morphed into Americans, more precisely into white, male, extreme right-wing Republicans. "Consent of the Governed" means to say consent of the big corporations and their mass media, and of the post-industrial military-energy complex (PIMEC)? "Safety and happiness" mean the safety of the total domination of the market and the happiness to see the non-American competitors destroyed. The former Bill Clinton administration has "become destructive of these Ends", not seeing for the saftey and happiness of the PIMEC in this sense. …

nonpositivism: Repeating for Jutta:
nonpositivism: Jutta, the spirit of Revolutionary radicalism during America's founding i.e. mass civic action and protest in America was only short-lived. And once America transitioned from Agrarian to mass Industrial Urban civilization, the dream of a democratic agrarian paradise of self-govt. and private property essentially died. We have the shell today, not the substance of this legacy.

jutta_schmitt2002: That was the reason that the people (of the PIMEC) took their right to "abolish" the threat of a perpetuation of this government by Al Gore, and installed Bush via the United States Supreme Court decision. It is a shell, Scott, ready to be filled with any contents convenient to the ruling elite of the moment.

juttafranz: Perhaps, we should found a Society for the Defence of Basic Constitutional Principles, a SDBCP, also an Office of Transition in the Venezuelan Embassy there, and organize something, to eventually get the Keys of the City of Caracas!

carlzim: Scott, agreed. Today USA=National Socialism minus Hitler.

jutta_schmitt2002: Better even, Franz: Scott, Carl et al should form the USLF --- United States
Liberation Front! ))))))))))

nonpositivism: Haha...Carl, even I would no go that far. How about "benevolent plutocracy"? Can we agree on that?

juttafranz: Hahaha ...!!!
carlzim: Same in Germany whereiIt's called Social-Capitalism.

carlzim: Like Peronism in Argentina. OK. Scott.

nonpositivism: We have some democratic forms and mechanisms, but they are usually trumped by economic power. That constitutes plutocracy.

carlzim: With some oligarchy, Scott.

juttafranz: No, Scott, Benevolent Kleptocracy!

nonpositivism: We are not a Police State, Carl. Don't lose sleep worrying about local spy cameras. You're not that important to the global political apparatus - at least not yet.

juttafranz: Stealing Florida votes!!!

carlzim: Franz, kleptomaniacracy.

josuecc: USA= Roman Empire

carlzim: I know Scott.

josuecc: Scott for Governor of Florida State!!!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Don't underestimate Carl, Scott!

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott and Carl for the Founding Fathers of the United States Liberation Front!

juttafranz: Scott, for de facto president in the American States!!

nonpositivism: Haha Jutta!!! Josue, yes - the USA is analogous to Rome. But the USA ideology even though it technically does have a colonialist past (since the Phillipines) has made the phrase "American Empire" taboo in our civic life. The ultimate newspeak.

iiiiriiiis: Hmmm.... Jutta - democratic constitutions and declarations of human rights.... my problem with the "natural right" - "human rights" is, however, that it is ABSOLUTE RELATIVE, in other terms, SUBORDINATED to the "natural right" of private property - dominium - meaning the "absolute right do abuse and destroy if s.b. pleases." (Adam Smith). At least that ranking is valid in the natural right tradition.

juttafranz: Yes, Iris, that's where we naturally and rightfully are heading now.

nonpositivism: We are always the world's Greatest Democracy, the greatest Republic, the greatest Power but NEVER (Heaven forbid - you could lose your broadcasting license if you say the unspeakable!) the American Empire.

juttafranz: The Fourth Reich, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Ditto, Iris - all so called "rights" are, in the last analysis, subordinate to the
"ultimate right", the "supreme right" of private property of the means of production. Thus, liberty is the liberty to economically exploit, politically oppress and socially discriminate the vast majority of the people living on this planet; "fraternity" is the fraternity among those sitting on the "sunny side", and the "equality" referst to the equal right of the corporations to penetrate the markets and establish their dominion.

carlzim: Scott, soon the globalists will come after me. I'm asking all to
visit my new forum (I thank Franz for visiting): "The Company" for people who enjoy spy stories at:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/thecompany2/start
Also, visit my related home page at:
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/cz/index1.html
Keep in mind that the forum and home page are under construction, and I welcome your comments and suggestions.

juttafranz: Yes, Scott, you are an enviable citizen, a warrior -- perhaps Xena may fall in love with you soon! Be careful, in Carl, you have a huge competitor.

josuecc: The Fifth Republic, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, I have visited your new forum already and sent you a feedback per mail.

carlzim: Scott, und morgen die ganze Internet.

juttafranz: Yes, Josue, the Fifth Republic Bushiana.

iiiiriiiis: Yes Jutta - excellent clarification. And Carl, very interesting remark - the upper echenlons and think tanks already talk about "social capitalism" , and interestingly, also about "The Creative Society of the 21th Century".

carlzim: Thanks, Jutta.

juttafranz: Carl, I was there too -- but discovered that two is a company, and three is a crowd.

juttafranz: Four is The Mob!

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz.

carlzim: What do you mean, Franz?

juttafranz: Just joking, Carl.

iiiiriiiis: ))))

carlzim: Good, Franz.

juttafranz: The Home Page and Forum are excellent, a brilliant idea!!

carlzim: Thank you, Franz.

iiiiriiiis: I always thougth Three is God, Jesus and the Holy spirit, Franz. Thanks for clarification!

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús - did you read that? A comment please.

juttafranz: That's the Heavenly Crowd, Iris, all gays!!!

josuecc: Who is Al Sharpton?

juttafranz: Of course, nothing in common with our gay people here on Earth!

carlzim: Josue, he's a black civil rights activist in Brooklyn, NYC, USA.

josuecc: OK, Thanks Carl!

carlzim: Why did you ask, Josue?

josuecc: I have just to revise its web page.

juttafranz: Scott & Carl, what was the general mood yesterday, after a year of reflection, with reference to the September 11 attacks? Anything special that you noted?

carlzim: Whose web page?

josuecc: http://www.americanlibertyusa.com/

carlzim: Obedience and confusion, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Question: Is there any public criticism or defiance with regard to the current
government of the USA? - Answer: If there was any criticism and defiance, it would not get ANY coverage whatsoever in the news media.

juttafranz: Or was the whole thing just a gag of the Bush administration to scoop popular support for its "New Wars", especially against Iraq?

jutta_schmitt2002: So the very news media play the decisive role in conditioning the "public opinion" and making any decision this government takes "acceptable" to the mainstream public.

juttafranz: Any popular protests worth mentioning in any larger cities?

carlzim: Interesting site, Josue.

juttafranz: Jutta, who generally possess the mass media; and the journalists are spokes(wo)men for which bosses? To be a real, global mass media today, you have to have a billion dollar backing, a Microsift sea, in which to swim.

carlzim: Franz, there's a renewed interest in Fascism in many countries. If some UFA guys who were
fellow students at CUNY, NYC, USA read the following, they may enjoy it.

Public Division in Ukraine Set to Continue
Last week, the Ukrainian Cabinet announced that it had completed a bill
which will recognize members of the Organization of Ukrainian
Nationalists - Ukrainian Insurgent Army (OUN - UIA) as fighters for
national independence.

carlzim: This has created yet another two-way split in Ukrainian society. After
debates on the status of the Russian language and heated discussions over
the activities of the national church, which is independent from Russia,
the issue of fully rehabilitating UIA fighters is the stumbling block
which continues to divide Ukraine into East and West.

carlzim:
The problem is that dozens of streets in western Ukraine are named after
Stepan Bandera, Roman Shukhevich (Taras Chuprinka) and Andrei Melnik, key
figures in the origins of the Ukrainian insurgent movement. Meanwhile, in
many schools and universities in eastern Ukraine the activities of OUN
members are regarded exclusively as terrorist acts, and Bandera,
Shukhevich and Melnik as fascist sidekicks, who met the Wehrmacht's
advance brigades with the traditional greeting of bread and salt.

carlzim:
A few months ago, the authorities in Ivano-Frankovsk took a decision to
recognise the UIA as a forerunner of the modern Ukrainian army, and the
insurgents as defenders of Ukrainian independence from foreign enemies -
German, Russian and Polish. This decision, as one might expect, provoked
mixed reactions.

juttafranz: That mass media are distributing "freedom of thought", "freedom of expression", that they are independent, guaranteed by the constitution, that only somebody's great grand grandma could still believe.

carlzim: Numerous veterans' organisations unanimously declared that the decision
was an insult to the memory of Soviet soldiers who fell in the bloody
battles for the liberation of Ukraine during the Second World War. The
Ukrainian veterans were joined by activists from national minority
movements in Ukraine, who consider such a step to be merely the latest
expression of Ukrainian nationalism. In response, nationalists, delighted
by the politicians in Ivano-Frankovsko, announced that they would now
press for recognition of OUN members as national heroes.

nonpositivism: Jutta, you are not quite correct about Media coverage in the USA. Although this does not really upset your analysis, it may help you refine it:

carlzim:
The Ukrainian Government promised to weigh all the pros and cons and
restore public calm. A special government commission, including well-known
Ukrainian historians and social historians, spent two months examining all
aspects of the UIA's activities. The conclusion they reached did not
restore public calm in any way: the followers of Bandera and Melnik did
indeed fight for their country's independence, but the methods they used
to wage this fight cannot be described as honorable or humane:

jutta_schmitt2002: Rhetorical question, Franz. The so called mass media are the direct arms and tentacles of the big corporations, and thus they have to condition the public opinion on whatever event according to these interests. -- "Mum / Dad, what did you do to stop Bush Jr. from massacring millions of innocent people and converting the planet into a nuclear desert?" - "Well, sweetie, I didn't realize what was going on way back then; I was too busy shopping."

carlzim:
'Inhumane is putting it very lightly,' Nikolai Bogatov, a retired air
force colonel and member of the Ukrainian veterans' movement Echo, told
journalists. 'My personal experience leaves me convinced that Bandera's
men were no 'defenders of the motherland', but simply ordinary bandits
along the lines of Basaev and Khattab today. In one town in the Lvov
Region they killed around 40 people in one night. Adults were beaten to
death with stones and clubs, and children were burnt in their own homes.
If so-called 'freedom' is earned in this way, then it is worthless, and
people who now call these 'liberators' heroes are also worthless'.

iiiiriiiis: Valid remark on what they would never ever openly discuss in "sociology of knowledge" for instance. To the point, Jutta. Sort of low intensity warfare what concerns the shape-shifting of the "public opinion". On the "attack" - Wanna test your perceptions? go to
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

carlzim: Meanwhile, the new bill has found favour not only with Ukrainian
nationalists, but also with their counterparts in Canada and the USA, who
still exert a strong influence on contemporary Ukrainian society.
'Ukrainian emigrants see this step as a big victory towards the
restoration of social justice,' believes Yaroslav Stefyuk, the editor of
the American almanac Zhittya - Ukraina (Life - Ukraine). 'For millions of
us, the recognition of UIA fighters as defenders of the independence and
collectivism of Ukraine is evidence that the current Ukrainian government
is devoting sufficient attention to the restoration of historical justice,
for which we have been waiting for over 50 years'.

juttafranz: The very mass media produce a great part of intellectual labour today, and also the fruits, the benefits and copyrights of that "human energy".

jutta_schmitt2002: Rhetorical question, Franz. The so called mass media are the direct arms and tentacles of the big corporations, and thus they have to condition the public opinion on whatever event according to these interests. -- "Mum / Dad, what did you do to stop Bush Jr. from massacring millions of innocent people and converting the planet into a nuclear desert?" - "Well, sweetie, I didn't realize what was going on way back then; I was too busy shopping."

carlzim:
http://www.europeaninternet.com/poland/frames/frames.php3?webnewsid=381333
5

nonpositivism: Noam Chomsky, probably America's best known radical intellectual wrote a book called 9/11 which basically lambasted the USA as the truly greatest purveyor of world terror. His speeches often including recently have received extensive longform coverage here on C-SPAN. He is marginalized, but he is "available". What many including Chomsky do not confront is that an even larger reason for his marginalization and lack of appeal is that only a very small minority of Americans agree with him.

juttafranz: University, Education, Socialization, Mass Media, long ago already have become major factories of ideology, mind- and thought-control, of infowarfare.

juttafranz: In themselves they are intellectual labour forces, accumulators of surplus chips.

jutta_schmitt2002: And why would only a small minority of Americans agree with Chomsky, Scott? What is the reason for that? Is it not due to the overwhelming avalanche of dis-information and "opinion making" of the mainstream media?

iiiiriiiis: At least threefold agreed, Franz.

nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz: Chomsky and hundreds of light-minded "Leftists" like him are
embedded deeply into American academia as tenured Professors. So your analysis of the "Educational Machinery" here needs refinement.

juttafranz: Thanks, Iris, for that lonely crowdy compliment!!

nonpositivism: I meant, "like-minded". In fact, it's well known that at most Public and even Private Universities Sociology, Political Science, History are dominated by Liberals or Leftists. They are generally out of synch with 95% of their students.

iiiiriiiis: You're welcome, Franz!

juttafranz: "Light-minded"? Also "light-footed"? Scott. Taking also things on the light-shoulder?

juttafranz: That's what I call: fiat lux!

carlzim: Many Americans perceive Chomsky as advocated "against the grain" views to attract
attention and make money.

iiiiriiiis: Scott, on the Educational Machinery let me reply borrowing Chomsky's words: The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit
the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within
that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views.
That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while
all the time the presuppositions of the system are
being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.
http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive

juttafranz: And, 95% out of transhistoric global reality, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: I guess "the left" never had much of a chance and acceptance in the USA, Scott.
Being "left" was / is equivalent to being a terrorist, and just the thought of it scared people away from
any critical analyses that could reasonably be made to the system.

carlzim: They perceive American lefists as Communists who like to live well with other people's money.

juttafranz: So, please, don't suggest again that I should go and read these eminent folks.

nonpositivism: An even more cynical interpretation is that the existing USA channels of academic dissent by virtue of their very existence and "viability" through 1st. Amendment and Academic freedoms legitimize the entire power framework. Bush, Gingrich, Cheney, etc. They can claim - and CORRECTLY - that the debate is technically open.

carlzim: Franz, I'm referring to perceptions.

iiiiriiiis: Thats exactly how the way how it works, and Chomsky himself falls into the cathegory of the "encouraged more critical and dissident views".

carlzim: Good point, Scott.

juttafranz: Not because they are "left", Scott, not because they have a tinge of Marxism or
Communism, simply because they don't hear the dropping of the penny, don't see jacta est alea; the same applies to the "right", and more so to the "centre".

carlzim: Also, Chomsky et al are no threats.

carlzim: Like Pozner and Yevtushenko in Russia.

iiiiriiiis: Exactly so, Carl. They all "want in" in the final analyses.

juttafranz: No, they are mouthpieces of that what the system needs, the constitutional right to
"assassinate" (Rumsfeld) terrorists.

carlzim: However, Sholzhenytsin is a free spirit and thus was almost jailed in Russia recently.

nonpositivism: Regarding my remarks above about debate. It *is* open, but the outcome is a foregone conclusion. What many including Chomsky do not recognize or can't easily confront is that there are deep oral, family and traditional cultures which establish themselves in the body politic that eclipse any formal rational education. Such as Love of Country, The Flag, the ingrained belief in American Freedom and opportunity, its symbolic hopes, etc. This is what the Terrorists reactivated on 9/11. Chomsky and his cohorts do not seem to grasp this.

carlzim: Who is America's Sholzhenitsyn?

iiiiriiiis: Carl and Scott.

carlzim: Thanks, Iris.

carlzim: Good point, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: Very interesting point here, Scott. You are talking exactly about the "values" on which fascism relies - blood, honour, homeland, country.

juttafranz: As exception: agreed, Scott: "This is what the terrorists reactivated on 9/11. Chomsky and his cohorts do not seem to grasp this." But, Scotty, which "terrorists", who are they?

carlzim: Jutta, like UPA in Ukraine today.

juttafranz: What did I tell you in my introduction? Read back, Scott!

nonpositivism: Jutta, let's be more general. ALL societies, all tribes operate on these premises. It is embedded into Human history for thousands of millennia.

jutta_schmitt2002: Yes, Carl, you can find this phenomenon in different countries. It is bound to the notion of the nation state.

nonpositivism: Sometimes it's just pure defensive reaction,"us vs. them" Ideology just pays vice to virtue.

carlzim: Like supporters of Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army (ROA).

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, yes and no. Fascism in terms of a combination of economic recession, the cutting back of the worker's rights, the wars and mass destruction is a modern phenomenon, bound to industrial capitalism, the business cycles and crises, and to the modern nation.

juttafranz: Scott, let us be more general, "all terrorists" -- including those millions in the USA.

nonpositivism: Iris, your comments before about Chomsky were amusing. In his case, both you and Carl are a little off-base. Much as I detest his politics, I respect the fact that he has risked his life, gone to jail, traveled to dangerous place etc. He is not very wealthy and is generally not famous. Although we may perceive him as a pawn in his own Theory of Manufacturing Consent, he would not agree.

juttafranz: Scott, from the left -- through the centre -- to the right, the whole bunch of terrorists, and their global lackeys/

nonpositivism: He has made just this point: that in the 1950's he would have been imprisoned for unAmerican acitivities. But America is not static. It is technically a freer or more tolerant nation of free speech than it was back then.

carlzim: The Vlasov issue reflects different views in Russia today about the Soviet Union's activities in
WW2.
During WW2, Vlasov said:
"I will end the war by telephone with
[Marshal Georgy] Zhukov," Vlasov was
quoted as saying on several occasions.
Zhukov was one of the top Soviet
commanders."

This may have upset some big global business elites who wanted WW2 to continue, as WW2 was big global business.

http://www.rusnet.nl/info/cis-today/archive/01-11/02rn6.shtm

juttafranz: If you include this whole electromagnetic spectrum of global, fascist terrorists, then I will agree a zillion per cent with you.

nonpositivism: Of course, Jutta et al. would argue that it can afford this "nominal" freedom of
academic dissent because such dissent at this time poses no danger and in fact helps legitimate the existing order. I think both are partially true. It depends what you emphasize.

carlzim: Like today's wars.

carlzim: Scott, the free spirits, e.g., Sholzhenytsin are not in academia.

nonpositivism: Franz, I'm sorry I cannot agree that the USA has millions who are prepared to
consciously and willfully invade another nation and commit acts of atrocity against civilians to "send a message" and wreak instability on an ideological enemy.

iiiiriiiis: Scott, my comments on Chomsky, whose analyses and activities I highly appreciate, were pointing to what I perceive as his limitations against the background of what we have been analysing in terms of the Labout Process. In no way they were ment to ridicule him.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, think of "Chomsky and the possibility of dissent" in Orwellian terms: What better stability for a given system than allowing and fostering dissent / "freedom of speech" etc. in order to spot potential troublemakers, in order to measure the "public reaction" to such thought and thus reinforce the official propaganda machine if deemed necessary. The perfect illusion of "freedom" is created, with dissenters not even knowing they are playing into the hands of those defending the status quo.

juttafranz: Also, there are free"spirits" like me in Venezuelan academia, Scott.

iiiiriiiis: Excatly in that sense, Jutta. Agreed.

nonpositivism: Yes, Iris but you and Jutta make the point that he basically is a Prisoner, his life is a manifestation of his own theories about dissent. That's not quite true in my opinion, although I understand your point and feel it has some merit.

juttafranz: Iris, in that case, Chomsky would be the last "Smith", the last of "his race", whom you would have to study.

jutta_schmitt2002: The last Winston, Franz ...

nonpositivism: Haha Franz....now we've turned Chomsky into a Living Fossil!

juttafranz: He is called Winston Smith, Jutta.

iiiiriiiis: ))

carlzim: Franz, Chomsky is widely publicized, and you aren't. Like Sholzhenitsyn, you were almost assassinated. Correct?

juttafranz: Is that not suspicious, Carl?

juttafranz: Who publishes him widely? Not the same mass media of disinformation, of infowarfare?

juttafranz: Not the New York Times, the Washington Post, Time, Newsweek, etc.?

carlzim: Yes, Franz. It's proof you're a free spirit, not an establishment dissenter.

jutta_schmitt2002: And never forget, Scott: the moment "intellectual dissent" materializes itself, reaching out to other brains, and converting itself into action, threatening existing interests, the "fun of dissent" is over, as could and can be seen for example here in Venezuela with the Chavez governement and the timid intents to introduce major changes that affect big economic interests (with all the mistakes of the case).

josuecc: El Nacional, El Universal.

nonpositivism: The more invisible, the more legitimate and free you are? Is that your formula, Carl?

iiiiriiiis: Valid! Excellent point, Jutta!

nonpositivism: If so, Carl you should be working on Cloaking Devices, the ultimate Weapon of Dissent in the new age of Infowarfare.

carlzim: Chomsky is in NY Times, Washington Post, NY Review of Books and various literary
journals.

nonpositivism: I understand they depend on the selective bending of light. Good luck. I understand the field is still wide open, perhaps you can even incorporate some Tesla theories.

juttafranz: Yes, that was the publicity with which the racist South African government honoured me.

carlzim: The new Cloak & Dagger, Scott?

carlzim: Yep, Franz.

carlzim: Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) device, Scott.

jutta_schmitt2002: If your writings and you yourself get forbidden, then you have quite a piece of real
publicity, Carl.

juttafranz: It was a similar case like here in Venezuela, where the golpistas could foresee the coming assassinations: they told my grandfather in South Africa that I have died already, before they could even get hold of me in Germany. Just imagine, this publicity.

juttafranz: When Jutta and I visited South Africa, my brother and sister told us the whole story.

nonpositivism: Jutta, I agree with you 80%. In other words, to active and mobilized Dissent the
response would be 80% repression in the USA, 20% neutrality or tolerance. The recent historical case is America's attempt to quell domestic insurrection at home during anti-Vietnam and Civil Rights and Black Power movements 35 years ago here.

carlzim: German tekkies developed and are using EMP at USA army baser in California (not classified).

jutta_schmitt2002: How would you qualify the assaults on civil liberties in the aftermath of 11th of September, Scott? Could we say this was a clever, "pre-emptive" action against future dissent?

carlzim: I'll be occult (hidden), Franz.

juttafranz: Scott, you should lend me your truth calculator, 95%, 80%, 99% ....

juttafranz: We need it here in Venezuela for the Truth Commission.

carlzim: Jutta, presently, restrictions of civil liberties are minimal.

nonpositivism: Jutta, no it was not truly pre-emptive. It's a rather crude attempt to take advantage of natural reflexive defensiveness and fear.

josuecc: Inviten a Gocho.

nonpositivism: Ok, I will.

missnaranjahit: Folks I will leave now, please send me the whole chatlog.

carlzim: Scott, similar today as in WW2.

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has declined to join and sent: Thanks, but no thanks.
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carlzim: Thanks for joining, Stella. Bye.

nonpositivism: Thanks Stella, bye.

juttafranz: Bye! Stella.

iiiiriiiis: Oh  Sorry to see you leaving Stella! Have a nice sleep and we talk tomorrow!

juttafranz: The manuscript is coming ....

jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, good night and bye.

jutta_schmitt2002: Who is leaving, who is coming?

missnaranjahit: Ok Iris, let's talk tomorrow! Bye!

josuecc: Vuelvan a invitar a Jesús.

iiiiriiiis: Bye Stella!

nonpositivism: Do NOT invite Jesus! I will invite him! Multiple invites will screw it up!

juttafranz: OK!

iiiiriiiis: OK.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

juttafranz: Iris, meanwhile, read your last "Smith".

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jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Carl!

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.

gocho24: Ok.... sorry guys.

jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Jesús.

gocho24: Today has been a bit busy for me.

carlzim: Thanks, Franz.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, back on board, too?

jutta_schmitt2002: OK.

iiiiriiiis: Hi Carl and Jesús!

carlzim: Yes, Jutta.

juttafranz: Poor Jesus!!

gocho24:

juttafranz: Did you separate the sheep from the goats in Florida, or did you re-count the votes?

carlzim: Hi, Jesus.

gocho24: hahahahahahahha

nonpositivism: Haha Franz. Well FYI a local School Board Election was too close to call and we will have run-off in a few weeks. That is standard procedure.

gocho24: I take your sarcasm humbly, Jutta.

juttafranz: Don't worry, Jesus, both come to the same!

gocho24: Believe it or not, I heard many hispanics saying that Florida has such problems because of its high hispanic population (lack of organization, etc).

carlzim: Scott, typical SOP.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, above you said the assault on civil liberties were a "rather crude attempt to take advantage of natural reflexive defensiveness and fear". In what exactly then consists this advantage, if not in the crushing down of dissent, present and future?

gocho24: How's that for self-esteem?

juttafranz: Downright, blatant, fascist "racism", Jesus.

gocho24: Juttafranz: I agree... but how can you be racist towards your own kind?

carlzim: Apparently, my ISP (Earthlink) sometimes changes servers for Yahoo IM. This appears in my Cntrl-Alt-Del window. I think that causes disconnection.

juttafranz: Well, there's no racism without capitalism, no capitalism without racism, Miami or Florida is highly capitalist, therefore, racist. We are born into racism, we are products of racism.

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: If the Latin American mother, when looking at her newborn and seeing she is
a female, says "ay, sólo una niña" - oh, ONLY a girl - she is being racist-sexist towards herself, she
discriminates herself in the cradle.

juttafranz: When my mom sees a girl in the cradle, she says: poooh! A toy for men. She racially discriminates herself, she wants a blue-eyed, blonde boy!

juttafranz: There again, "great minds" think alike --- Jutta and I said the same, in the same second.

carlzim: Jutta, same in China and Muslim world.

gocho24: Jutta_Schmitt: Then how do we overcome those stereotypes we have about ourselves and
build up trust in our abilities?

nonpositivism: Jutta, in colloquial English, "take advantage" means "exploit".

jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: by activating our own capability of independent, critical thought and action,
saying NO to the existent status quo.

nonpositivism: Who wants some interesting stats on the health of Florida Democracy?

gocho24: Shoot, Scott.

nonpositivism: Maybe Jesus can provide data from Miami, I can provide data from here in
Hillsborough 280 miles away....

iiiiriiiis: Please, Scott...

iiiiriiiis: Anybody can please invite Carl?

gocho24: I'd have to research that for the next meeting, Scott.

nonpositivism: Hillsborough has about 1 Million Residents in this suburban sprawl. Of these, only about 1/2 (500,000) are Registered to vote. Of these. only about 28% voted in the Primary last Tuesday. Wtihout active, vibrant participation, there is no Democracy.

juttafranz: But Scott, distance lends enchantment to the view, give us your shot!

nonpositivism: For those who want to look up more, go to
http://www.votehillsborough.org/election_results_unofficr.html

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Dade County has a similar Web site for your viewing pleasure.

iiiiriiiis: Welcome back, Carl.

gocho24: I had to tell my GF that women before 1929 had to fight for the same right she wasn't taking
advantage of... that got her to vote.

gocho24: What's the website?

carlzim: Thanks, Franz.

nonpositivism: (Miami is in Dade County). We are counting on your diligence and graciousness Jesus to give us the URL as soon as possible!

juttafranz: In that year, women were forbidden to vote in Switzerland, Jesus. Bush would have had no female problems then.

gocho24: Oh! This is a test on my internet-searching abilities.

jutta_schmitt2002: Venezuela is much more generous with regard to registered voters, Scott. People are enrolled twice or thrice, and even the dead ones can vote!

nonpositivism: Jesus and friends. Try : http://elections.metro-dade.com/

juttafranz: Clinton also! Kennedy, no Marilyn sleepless nights!

nonpositivism: Jutta, the USA errs on the side of "caution". We historically have made it very difficult for people to register and vote. Easier to control elections that way.

nonpositivism: Everyone knows Registration should be instant or within a few hours, you should be able to vote mobile (in different locations) or by Absentee ballot with no restriction, and we need a 24 hour Voting non-working Holiday to give people a chance to get to the polls.

nonpositivism: I give former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo credit. In an interview a few years back, he admitted that the Election system wants you to be too intimidated, fragmented or frazzled to vote.

iiiiriiiis: Problem: by the time women had the "same rights", the so called "rights" (to vote, to
participate in the so called "higher education", university...) either weren't really "worth" anything at all, or women got that "rights" because of the needs of the production process (e.g., that they would be "accepted" going to work).

nonpositivism: Hey Iris, Franz, and Jutta...do you think matriarchies would generate superior and more equitable results?

juttafranz: Agreed, Iris, you see: "never trust a woman!"

jutta_schmitt2002: Valid observation, Iris! - Scott: by the time the voter has made it to the voting table, there is a problem with the ballot card, or (s)he is told (s)he is not registered, (s)he is an "ex-convict", etc. etc., as has happened in the last presidential elections in Florida.

juttafranz: Scott, why not? Yes, that is, if they ever existed!

nonpositivism: I'll be blunt: I prefer Eleanor Roosevelt to most Male Leaders, but most Male Leaders to Catherine the Great, Margaret Thatcher, Eva Braun and even Hillary Clinton. Women have not distinguished themselves in leadership capacities. Unfortunately almost all simply imitate and adapt to male-based power structures to survive.

jutta_schmitt2002: Not within the same overall framework, Scott, not if basic labour relations keep being untouched. That is, not if economic exploitation, political domination, social discrimination and human alienation persist, if the main relation society VERSUS nature persists.

juttafranz: A priori, there was no patriarchy, hence no matriarchy; now, a posteriori, there is a
patriarchy, hence, it deduced a matriarchy. Perhaps there only existed a humanarchy.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Franz, Humanarchy?? Hmmm, have you subconsciously included "anarchy" in there?

carlzim: Thanks, Franz.

juttafranz: Yes, Nyx, Chaos and Anarchy!

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, a woman, if she wants to be "successful" in public life, has to convert herself into a male. That's the "secret".

jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent term, Franz. I like it!!!!

nonpositivism: Jutta, if so, we've got some serious rethinking to do. The cure is worse than the disease. As Carl and I have seen in the USA in the last 30 years.

iiiiriiiis: Same here, Jutta and Franz!

juttafranz: For you, Carl: A priori, there was no patriarchy, hence no matriarchy; now, a posteriori, there is a patriarchy, hence, it deduced a matriarchy. Perhaps there only existed a humanarchy.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: Franz, Humanarchy?? Hmmm, have you subconsciously included "anarchy" in there?

carlzim: Thanks, Franz.

juttafranz: Yes, Nyx, Chaos and Anarchy!

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, what about serious rethinking AND reacting?!

jutta_schmitt2002: NO to economic exploitation, NO to political opression, NO to social
discrimination, NO to human alienation! YES to HUMANARCHY!

iiiiriiiis: Maybe we could talk about quitting the "Hum", Jutta and Franz.

juttafranz: The "Hum", Iris? What's that?

carlzim: I'm listening.

juttafranz: You mean, at the beginning was the Anarchy, without "Hum", without "Homo", without "Man" -- just anarchy sapiens sapiens!

iiiiriiiis: Franz, taking in consideration our analyses and discussion on "human", "human being", I'm
not that convinced of the "hum" in the term -- exactly.

iiiiriiiis: Neither of the sapiens which doesn't fit there by our own definition.

juttafranz: So, Iris, al last I know our species: anarchisis pandemoniumensis.

jutta_schmitt2002: Anarchiris Pandemoniensis.

jutta_schmitt2002:

iiiiriiiis: ))))
 
 

Fading out ......
 
 

juttafranz: Yes!
juttafranz: Folks, I have to get down to house business, can we stop here today?
juttafranz: It was really great fun -- I have the complete manuscript.
gocho24: Sorry about not being able to participate as much today.
gocho24: I did read most of what was said... next time I won't be so quiet
juttafranz: Send all your scripts to Stella to check, whether Yahoo censured mine or any of yours.
juttafranz: Never mind, Jesus.
juttafranz: It was fun to have you here -- even your cyber-shadow would tantalize us!
jutta_schmitt2002: Its been nice to have you all in the chat, folks. I enjoyed the discussion. (Franz:
Getting down to house business - sounds great to my ears! What is on the menu today? ))) )
juttafranz: You are always welcome.
juttafranz: We broke the record today; for the first time 8 participants.

carlzim: OK, Franz. I enjoyed today's chat.

gocho24: Bye all!

iiiiriiiis: Yes Franz, same here, let's continue next Thursday. I have to get back to less pleasant things now - I enjoyed the chat, too!

carlzim: Jesus, thanks for joining.
juttafranz: And Yahoo behaved somehow!

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué: Good luck in your endeavours. Jesús: Thanks for joining!!

juttafranz: Carl, Greetings to Fran.

gocho24: Same time next week, right?

juttafranz: Thanks for your usual, very interesting contributions.

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Iris, Carl, Scott and Franz. --- Same time next week! Yes!

carlzim: Fran sends greetings to all.

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Carl.

carlzim: Bye, folks.

juttafranz: Iris, you were very vivid and lively today!

gocho24: Bye.

iiiiriiiis: So, bye bye, all, Carl, Scott, Josue, Jesús, Jutta and Franz - taketh care and see you next week!

juttafranz: Keep up the "good spirits"!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Carl, it's been a pleasure. By all!

juttafranz: Jutta, "great minds" think alike.

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye.

Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.

josuecc: Bye All!!!!!!

iiiriiiis: Bye!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Josué!!!!!

juttafranz: Josue, the only student that understood me.

jutta_schmitt2002: See you next Monday in classes.

juttafranz: Stella, out of bail, back into jail.
juttafranz: Bye all!!!

iiiiriiiis: Franz  Bye!

jutta_schmitt2002: Stella - don't let them get you! Keep running!

juttafranz: Bye! "Smith" Iris!!!

josuecc: Thanks Prof. Franz

juttafranz: Bye! Josue. See you in class!!

iiiiriiiis: Otherwise we would have to do the research and to interview you in jail, Stella

juttafranz: Scott, bye! measuring as ever --- 1%, 99%, .... Bye!!!

josuecc: OK! Prof. Franz!

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Iris - and greetings to your special friend Adam Smith --- or is it Max Scheler now?

juttafranz: Bye! All!!!

iiiiriiiis: Comparative Politics, Jutta.

jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Scott! Keep me informed about the flaws in electronic voting, please!
juttafranz: iris, jutta will chat with you just now!
juttafranz: Bye all!

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris - I'm sorry.
jutta_schmitt2002: )))))

iiiiriiiis: Okay, bye bye then!

juttafranz: Bye!!!

Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye.

nonpositivism: sorry I had to leave earlier. Business considerations. If you have any dramatic
post-scripts, please convey them now or via email.

Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the conference. 

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