          Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
          Greetings, it would take hours and hours to edit this
          particularmanuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
          "time" to correct everything!

         Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
         the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
         cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
         are not perfect scientifictreatises.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To visit our Home Pages:

In future, until further notice, regularly on Thursdays,
sometimes, even on Sundays, we will have all chats regularly
on Yahoo.

Kindly download and install the latest Yahoo Messenger and
by e-mail, franzjutta@cantv.net , please, give us your
"Buddy Name".
************************************************************

Yahoo! Messenger: You are now logged into voice conference
- juttafranz-21050.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.

nonpositivism: tally-ho!
nonpositivism: Greetings and Felicitations!
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
iiiiriiiis: Franz, good evening!
juttafranz: Hi! Everybody! Welcome to your Weekly International Chat!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello there - I can see Scott and Iris and Franz here.
iiiiriiiis: Hello Jutta! Is Scott in? I cannot see him?
juttafranz: : carlzim: Franz&Jutta: Due to unexpected business, I'll be late
for chat today. Please start without me. Thanks. Carl
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús, "El gocho" is listed "idle" on my screen. Carl
notified he will be late. I don't see any Stella around.
iiiiriiiis: Stella sends greetings to all, Jutta, unfortunately, she cannot
participate tonight, still struggling with a paper to be corrected until tomorrow.
jutta_schmitt2002: Iiiiirrrriiiiiiisss - I can read you. Sorry to hear about Stella
and her paper. I will keep my fingers crossed she gets it all right for tomorrow.
iiiiriiiis: Same here, Jutta!!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: This university "business" is getting ever more annoying,
isn't it?
juttafranz: Please invite gocho24 (Jesus)!
iiiiriiiis: I fear you don't know how definitely "right" you are, Jutta - it would
be "better" for the world if you were "wrong".
juttafranz: I invited him, he did not react.
jutta_schmitt2002: Same here, Franz. Seems Jesús is not at his computer
at the moment. Iris - we had to realize an oral exam today for some students
who could not attend the written exam. One of the guys was totally doped
with vailum to cool his nerves, and could hardly see, speak or answer the
questions - can you imagine?!
juttafranz: Anyhow, if you are ready, we could commence, and I will drop
you a few encouraging lines. Tell me when you are all ready, please.
nonpositivism: Please wait 2 minutes for me, Franz. I need to finish this
phone call, will be quick!
juttafranz: Yes, I am waiting three minutes for Jutta too.
juttafranz: Anybody, wants 8 minutes more?
iiiiriiiis: Terrible, Jutta.
juttafranz: You, perhaps, Iris?
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm back and standing by.
iiiiriiiis: )
iiiiriiiis: *Standing by*.
juttafranz: Standing by!
iiiiriiiis: *haciendo maletas*
juttafranz: I think we should change our name: The Stand-By Crew!
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris, I felt so sorry for the student! Even in his doped
condition, the cold sweat was running down from the guy's forefront.
And after all, he did rather well in the exam, because Franz was very
cooperative, as usual.
jutta_schmitt2002: So when will we see you again and take you for a ride?!
juttafranz: After the exam, he immediately asked for a cigarette -- of course,
I offered him one -- I'm a sweet professor, the nicest in the Poliverse!!
iiiiriiiis: *sooooon*!!!!!!! I tried to send the schedule via FAX this afternoon,
Jutta, got my ticket, but the FAX didn't work. Will inform you on details via
mail later on.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, you are a heck of a professor man!
iiiiriiiis: Exactly so, Franz. Agreed, Jutta. OUTSTANDING.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ah, that was YOU! I heard the faxtone on the phone - we
had just gotten back from university. We do not have the fax machine installed
any longer, Iris. It's broken, and Martin has not yet had the time to look after it
and fix it.
jutta_schmitt2002: The student disappeared happily in a cloud of
smoke after the exam, hahahahaa )
iiiiriiiis: Never ever perceivable, conceivable in terms of "professor". That's
the point.
juttafranz: And, in the exam, Jutta was even more "sweeter": when the
students nearly fainted, she answered the questions for them.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, I tried 2 times, Jutta!
jutta_schmitt2002: Yes, I've become quite cooperable too these days ....
giving the hints whenever the student's had black-outs.
iiiiriiiis: Would you take over the exams here, Jutta?
nonpositivism: I am ready!
jutta_schmitt2002: Yep.
iiiiriiiis: Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fine, Scott. Franz ---- the floor is open!
juttafranz: Scott, read back, please.
nonpositivism: A very creative stand-by period. The past is prologue....

juttafranz: Folks, today is your day. Let me just make some introductory
remarks, and then you could begin with your contributions, appraisal,
enrichment and critique of our international chats.

"In spite of the scientific, phenomenal immensity of our invaluable contributions,
these issues also have a philosophic, existential density, that elevates our
social consciousness to new degrees of understanding and comprehension".
Did our chats, debates and correspondence really "elevate our social
consciousness to new degrees of understanding and comprehension"?

juttafranz: If "yes", kindly explain, in what sense our chats have achieved
this rare subjective. If "no", explain why could such an endeavour not be
accomplished. If "yes" a n d "no", then explain how we have accomplished
this dialogical "miracle". If neither "yes" nor "no", then explain towards which
novel mensions we were catapulted, in which way we are excelling ourselves.

juttafranz:
Furthermore, I asked that we should do the following today:
"Hence, folks, our next chat will be a kind of praxical-theoretical 'stock-taking',
or even a 'stock-exchange'. I invite you all to talk about what has been
elucidated above, about our chats, about what fascinated you, what should
be improved. It would be nice if you all could formulate your ideas beforehand;
and post them during the debate."
Without much ado, folks, I am awaiting your posting fever! As introductory remarks,
that's all!

jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks ever so much, Franz. Very interesting questions
you raise. - I did not prepare any remarks, so I'll just comment in the flow
of the discussion.

nonpositivism: Believe me folks, I would not make the extra effort to be here
if these Conferences did not offer value-added. They are a unique creative
forum.

juttafranz: Scott, of the New Renaissance, could you elucidate your
statement a little more, please.

iiiiriiiis: But first of all, thanks Franz. I did not prepare any remarks, but will
certainly try to add some comments. Please, Scott, proceed first...

jutta_schmitt2002: As far as I'm concerned, I actually do think our chats have
elevated and keep elevating my "social conscience" to new degrees of
understanding. This weekly forum provides me with live insights into how
other members of our refresheningly diverse crew think, why they think the
way they do, and to what extent they are a reflection of the "Zeitgeist" of our
time - be it in an affirmative, be it in a negative sense. The challenge for me
personally is, to accept and take into account each and every contribution
made by each and every of our participants. Often, no easy thing to do!

juttafranz: Folks, like us, are always on guard, are always prepared for any
eventuality, Iris. No problem!!

nonpositivism: OK, here are some examples of why it's very helpful, very
educational for me:

nonpositivism: diverse geography, diverse careers, diverse points of view,
creative synergy, very high intellectual and philosophical content, occasionally
even new creative syntheses, plateaus of understanding reached for the first
time in this forum.

nonpositivism: Because the content is NOT predictable. That's very important.

nonpositivism: Franz or someone else may have prepared remarks, but the
best is in the improvisation of the group.

jutta_schmitt2002: I often observe about myself, that I spontaneously tend
to "agree" OR to "disagree" to a given contribution made, and the educational
value for me lies in earnestly, honestly and last but not least methodologically
having to consider both attitudes at a time - to agree AND disagree, which is
equivalent to considering all sides of the coin (once again, no easy thing to do).

juttafranz: Furthermore, it is probably the only forum on the web, where anybody,
as long as s(he) remains scientific and philosophic, with the accompanying
etiquette, could say exactly what (s)he pleases, and it will be published just like that.

nonpositivism: I like the alternative creative approaches, such as Franz's
rejection of classic dichotomies and his preference for Trialogic, etc.
That is not what we get in most ordinary media, conversation and analysis.

nonpositivism: Yes Franz right now the Internet is still a relatively free medium,
perhaps the freest in the world in its scope and flexibility.

jutta_schmitt2002: And here lies the decisive difference to (most probably)
any other forum on the net: We respect, accept and affirm each others
coincidences as well as differences, and this is the only way to leave the
realm of the "traditional", unilateral pro-con debates, where no synthesis,
no new horizon is in sight.

juttafranz: Scott, I am blushing, becoming not a paleface, but a "Red Pandemonian"
-- not used to such a lot of flowers from you. Did I say something "wrong"? Did I do
anyhting "out of place"?

nonpositivism: Professors/Academics in the USA are much more interested in
rank and title and talking among themselves. They show almost no interest in
practical, active conversations with a variety of people (not just academics). Not
more than 1/1,000 American Professors would ever dream of doing what Franz is
doing.

nonpositivism: From what Iris and Stella have told me, this is also true in Germany.

juttafranz: Scott, for years I forgot that I am a Doctor of Philosophy, I only
realize that I am a Professor, when a student addresses me as "Profe",
expecting a nice grade.

nonpositivism: I have come to the sad conclusion that past the age of 25,
not more than 1 - 5% of people are capable of any substantive change.
This is one of the rare forums in which we exceed that ratio.

jutta_schmitt2002: I can only subscribe to your observation, Scott. No other
professor not even here in Mérida would be as interested in sharing thoughts,
actions, discussions in the most lively way, no matter whether in "realtime"
or via the internet. These days, Franz rather has to stop an avalanche of people
- students, local journalists, intellectuals, government people - who would like
him to be on local Merideñan TV, to give conferences, to organize extra seminaries,
to start regular discussion groups, to prolongue the university semester sessions,
etc. etc.

juttafranz: Scott, I just say Hi! and Yes! to my academic colleagues -- Jutta does
not even want to put on her red dress and to go to their parties and festivals.

iiiiriiiis: I certainly will, Franz. - In addition to Jutta's and Scott's remarks,
as far as I'm concerned, I always appreciate and enjoy the very special
and lonely "air" in our chats - the definite difference compared to discussions
e.g. at universities and so on: - exactly, Franz, that's the point I was about to
make - that every participant could freely voice his and her comments, thoughts,
doubts, critique on the topics, and contribute to the discussion in a genuine way,
as he or she feels like.

nonpositivism: How can a woman in South America not have a Red Dress??
Seems impossible.

jutta_schmitt2002: We always find a good excuse not having to take part
in some kind of senseless "socializing efforts" of the academic elite here.

nonpositivism: Smart, Jutta. they're generally a waste of time. We each
have only a finite amount of life-energy and must use it wisely.

juttafranz: Of course, the students swarm around us -- are very excited
in our classes, even bringing their friends, children and babes, to listen
to something else, but, I have learned that they should act and think for
themselves -- the more we stand at a distance, the more enchanting,
bewitching we become.

Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has left the conference.
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jutta_schmitt2002: Ditto, Scott, we have to wisely use our energy and not
waste it on senseless opportunities.

nonpositivism: Jesus, you've been missing a wonderful orgy of self-congratulation
here.

juttafranz: Well, folks, these chats, our home-pages, our way of thinking, our
behaviour, have a very long history of human struggle.

jutta_schmitt2002: One of the most bitter lessons we have learned all over
these years is, that there is no way you can conscientize anybody. Each
and everybody has to take "social conscience" all by him/herself - there
may be impulses one can give (or recieve), that can be of help, but no more.
No way of actually "convincing" somebody. Each and everybody has to
convince him/herself.

juttafranz: The reason was very simple: who would understand a group
that has been acting and thinking differently, studying day and night, anything
that we could get hold of -- especially in a mind-controlled, brainwashed world.

jutta_schmitt2002: And that bitter lesson has become a sweet one at the same
time: Adjusting expectations to reality is a very sane thing to do.

juttafranz: From "bad" to "worse", how are you going to transmit, intermediate
a philosophy and logics that place everything topsy-turvy?

jutta_schmitt2002: You don't loose your energy wrecking your brains of
why you "failed" to explain something to your students let alone "convince"
them of something.

nonpositivism: But Jutta, isn't it generally distressing as you once told me
very few students upon Graduation have much creative zeal and energy left?
Somehow the process saps them of their natural curiosity and intellectual
independence. This is very sad.

juttafranz: How are you going to explain to the world what is polimensional,
multi-facetical action and thinking, that fears even to utter a single contradiction?

jutta_schmitt2002: And the big surprise comes, when, the moment you have
given up your "conviction" efforts, people start thinking on their own account,
and place themselves into a position where they can actually surpass
themselves and come nearer in their understanding.

nonpositivism: What we're doing here is real Education in the best sense of the
word. Dialogue - which literally means "Through Words", an attempt to capture
"fluid" realities in words as much as possible in an open communication. This
almost never happened in my undergraduate or graduate education - except
unofficially with friends, fellow students and Professors.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, say, 95 per cent of Franz' students do not have
any creative energy left. And yet there is something about the way Franz
teaches them that makes them sort of "wake up" a little, because they
hear things from his mouth they never heard before in their lives, let
alone from a professor.

juttafranz: How could you teach someone to really and truly affirm, to
agree, but, then to do more, also learn to disagree, and then to relate the
two, to think, but then to surpass, to learn something new, to excel, to "neither agree nor to disagree"?

nonpositivism: Well, that's good Jutta. Some energy is much, MUCH
better than none.

Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has declined to join and sent: No gracias.
Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has left the conference.

juttafranz: Hi! Josue!
nonpositivism: Too many invites. someone - just ONE person- please
invite Josue back again!

jutta_schmitt2002: Hola y adiós Josué! (Des-)conectado desde Mérida hoy....

juttafranz: In fact, of all my students, north and south of the Equator, you
are the first one that I ever heard using the concept "trialogics" -- a word
that does not even appear on the whole wide web -- only on our pages.

juttafranz: Now, folks, what is the common denominator of all our 146
chats till now?

jutta_schmitt2002: This is a conference of gringos, semi-gringos, y otras
nacionalidades ;)

iiiiriiiis: Creative energy at university, Jutta and Scott, is what would shatter
the education-farce into rubble - imagine the students applying what we are
trying to do here - to RELATE, to think about things, to question them, to put
what we learned into action - that's certainly an atom-bomb for the entire system.

nonpositivism: The real University is nothing more than all organized
knowledge, the continuing body of knowledge and intellectual thought.

juttafranz: Jesus, go to: http://www.franzjutta.org and there you will find
a detailed answer of your question.

jutta_schmitt2002: Easy, Franz! The common denominator is on the one
hand the recommendation to do, think and excel all of, by and for ourselves
and to leave the realm of unilateralism. Jesús: Trialogics is logics, that include
formal logic, dialectics, and a form of reasoning that is "neither formal logic
nor dialectical" and tries to go beyond the parameters of thinking and reasoning
we have been taught in our lives.

nonpositivism: Unfortunately there's also another University which goes
by the same name: a dues-mandated, teax-paying, physical edifice with
bureaucratic machinery.

gocho24: Jutta: Sure! Maybe I can catch up with the rest of the students
and be prepared for finals.

nonpositivism: These 2 Universities often have nothing to do with each
other. They're like Homographs.

jutta_schmitt2002: And I might add, Scott: the real multi-versity are we
ourselves, our own experiences, thoughts, actions and steps towards
"transcendence".

nonpositivism: Touché, Jutta. Perfectly synthesized. You must be a good
cook.

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris: D'accord! No more dangerous thing than a thinking,
surpassing student. The professors will be out of job the moment the
students do this.

juttafranz: Jesus, I am awaiting your graduation in Trialogics, getting our
"Do a n d Think AND Excel All Of, By and For Yourself, Not Here, Not Now,
But Anywhere, Anynow, Anywhither" Degree.

nonpositivism: Interesting, Josue. It's called a University probably because
it aspires to the Totality of knowledge, the "Universe" or "Universal
knowledge" open to all. So I can't really object to that one!

jutta_schmitt2002: No finals needed here, Jesús. Just an open mind, own
creativity and energy and offfff you go!

gocho24: I always thought reasoning and thinking it's like wine's aroma....
it takes years of maceration and patience.

nonpositivism: In my New Renaissance venture (still developing) we often
try many times to interest Professors in multimedia conferences, etc. but
many are almost phobic and unwilling to consider or grasp the potential
of such media. They prefer "collective introspection" with a limited audience
and are afraid of true dialogue. Let me send you all an email I sent some time
ago. It applies perfectly.

jutta_schmitt2002: Josué - you think on your own account and start
educating yourself and studying by yourself, and Franz is out of his job,
imagine!

juttafranz: uni-lateral, uni-dimensional, uni-form, uni-linear, then, uni-versal
knowledge, in a one and only Uni-Verse, taught by a one and only Uni-Versity.

nonpositivism: [If you folks want, the content is short enough to post here
as well...., let me know!]

juttafranz: A uni-, a one, has no relations, cannot think, is dead. Now imagine
what you could learn in a University, propagating Universals, that is, Absolute
Truths.

jutta_schmitt2002: As we have stated these days, Scott, the entire educational
system is NOT there in order to educate creative, self-thinking, exploring and
energetic, let alone critical students. All the contrary. The entire education system
is there in order to maintain a given status quo and prepare the future intellectual
labour force for their role and jobs in society.

nonpositivism: Jutta, I've wondered about this sometimes. How do you think
Teachers (my wife is also one, by the way) would feel if students could learn
primarily on their own with no formal education? How would doctors feel if
most diseases were preventable or curable and their patient count dropped 90%?

nonpositivism: Would Doctors trade in their work satisfaction and financial
compensation for the betterment of Humanity?

nonpositivism: OK, here's my little monograph on "Higher Academia- Not All
It's cracked up to be!"

About 6 years ago I began a Ph.d. program with an eye to teaching at a major
American University. In my mid 30's by this time, I discovered something that
left an indelible impression and if anything has only grown stronger since that time:

Except for the upper echelons of Math and Physics, there's very little open
creative interdisciplinary dialogue among Students and Professors. Even
among Professors themselves. Paradoxically, everyone acquieses to this
closure of the Academic Mind as "the norm".

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, the teachers would still be important, because they
would have to give the impulse, and encourage the student's enthusiasm.

nonpositivism: Once the Professor had found his or her "niche" knowledge
industry and acquired Tenured status, they demonstrated no inclination to
alter their core intellectual conceptions in any way. Indeed, usually they
demonstrated total resistance. Their lives consisted (besides frequent publication)
of piling up window dressing, evidence, articulating detail, but never questioning
core premises or even opening themselves up to new areas of interest. Their
minds were made up, their intellectual compasses set forever.

A few years later, a Professor friend of mine (he shall go unnamed here,
suffice to say he is one of the foremost Economists in the world today)
spontaneously told me that just about all Professors he knew - even within
the Economics Dept. of his own University! - practiced an almost

juttafranz: Scott, it is Honey, Money makes the Earth go round! Not education
per se, not art for itself, not health.

nonpositivism: ...pathological avoidance of their peers. They didn't want to
know about someone else's core conceptions or field work - The modus
vivendi was Tolerance/Cordiality from a Distance.

My friend is glad he's found his tenured niche after much struggle and
politics. But "Higher Academia" is a lot less rosy up close: A Study in
Stability and Academic Power, not even faintly resembling The Search for
Truth he had imagined it to be.

Academic Faculty = Dead wood in an ocean of bureaucracy and disconnection.
The Tenure system has a lot to do with it, as Harold Bloom of Yale opined
recently. It's now a bastion of corruption, academic lethargy and conformity.

nonpositivism: Maybe Mark Twain was right:
Never let school interfere with your education. FIN

nonpositivism: Carl, welcome! For full text of my comments on Higher
Academia, consult your email.

jutta_schmitt2002: (The "statification" of the social position and the breaking
down of any individual dynamics - according to the motto: never overhaul
your own thinking, you could contradict yourself and be considered a fool!)

nonpositivism: Jutta, remember what I said about individuals past the age
of 25? This is part of it.

carlzim: Folks, propaganda is strange. During WW2,while movies in
Hollywood USA did not portray blacks & whites as equals...
"Om Krueger" starring Emil Jannings (who played with Marlene Deitrich
in The Blue Angel),was made by UFA in Nazi Germany in WW2.
It was the first movie in cinema history that showed white (Om Krueger)
and black (South African trial chief) as equals. The movie also shows
that the British were the first in modern history that produced
concentration camps; i.e., during the Boer War, they imprisoned the
Dutch women & children to prevent them from working their farms while
their husbands & fathers were away fighting the British. Krueger
unsuccessfully tries to convince Queen Victoria, portrayed as drunken
& lecherous, to free the prisoners.

juttafranz: A famous Latin phrase says it all: we do not learn for the school,
but for life.

iiiiriiiis: On your remark above, you are certainly having a point here, Jesús -
what does "take time" is to getting aware of the far reaching implications of
unilateralism in ones own way of "thinking", and to surpass it. - -- Most valid
remarks on the task and objective of Education, Jutta, Franz and Scott.

carlzim:
http://www.germanvideo.com/60_years/60_desc_n-o.html
Ohm Krueger (Uncle Krueger)
1941, Biography, ca. 124 min., b&w - This enormous spectacle, years in
making and greatly lauded by the Nazi Government, tells the story of
Statesman Paul Krueger, who led the fight against British aggression that
culminated in the Boer War. Directed by Hans Steinhoff with the
assistance of Herbert Maisch and KarlAnton; featuring Emil Jannings,
Lucie Hoflich, and Werner Hinz.

juttafranz: I do not have it at hand at this moment, my Latin is rusty at the
moment. I will check it out, and give it to you later, Scott.

nonpositivism: Education is usually perverted for Propaganda, Patriotism,
Obedience and Conformity. This is true of every single human civilization
or culture ever created, including Greece which invented classical Reason
and Philosophy.

nonpositivism: For the modern incarnation in the USA, see:
http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/cspan.csp?command=dprogram&record=158057137

carlzim: Folks, after chat, visit site below on Stanley Milgram's mind control
experiment which may be related to MKULTRA. work in CIA's MKULTRA mind
control program?
http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm
The Milgram Experiment.
A lesson in depravity, peer pressure, and the power of authority.

nonpositivism: Click on the URL I included, folks and you will see what I mean
IMMEDIATELY.

jutta_schmitt2002: If it is true, what you say, Carl, that conventional education is
kaputt, would this not mean that finally the age of creativity, of self-thinking, of
dynamics, of energy has arrived?

The aftermath of the Holocaust and the events leading up to World War II,
the world was stunned with the happenings in Nazi German and their acquired
surrounding territories that came out during the Eichmann Trials. Eichmann,
a high ranking official of the Nazi Party, was on trial for war crimes and
crimes against humanity. The questions is, "Could it be that Eichmann, and
his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could
we call them all accomplices?"

jutta_schmitt2002: This is downright chilling, Scott! Any kind of dissent
or critique with regard to the current US government and its domestic
and foreign policies could soon be openly and publicly branded as
"anti-patriotism" or "Anti-Americanism" and the "dissidents" (teachers,
university professors, intellectuals, out-of-the-box-thinkers) be qualified
"potential terrorists" or a "danger for our youth", and thus be removed
from their public positions. ( This reminds me of the "Berufsverbot"
(= prohibition to teach or to be employed in the public sector) of leftist
teachers, professors and intellectuals in the mid and late sixties in Germany).
Open, Orwellian Thought Control is already well on its way in America today!
Who has still the eyes to see, the ears to hear and the brains to analyse
....
jutta_schmitt2002: ... what is going on?!

nonpositivism: Jutta, this has been a big part of American education since
the late 40's. Fighting the Cold War at home began a very ugly, closed period
of conformity in American education and mass media, enforced by UnAmerican
activities committees and the like (these committees still exist).

nonpositivism: I would not equate America's enforcement of its patriotic
education with Stalinist Russia or Castro's Cuba, but nevertheless it has
severe overtones and continues to. And the really chilling part of it is that...........

jutta_schmitt2002: Right, Scott. However it is interesting to see, how apparently
"obsolete" conceptions of education are being revived in order to back up an
essentially nationalist-fascist attitude.

carlzim: Propaganda starts at an early age. Cryptography=propaganda.
Has cryptography influenced pop culture in the USA?
Visit this site on the "Captain Midnight" decoders:
http://home.magi.com/~hagelin/Captain.html
The decoders were used on the "Captain Midnight" radio show in USA in
WW2. I listened to this show as a child in Bronx,NYC, USA in WW2,
and I have duplicates of a decoder badge.

nonpositivism: Much of this is coming from the grass-roots, from
well-meaning but stupid and ignorant Americans who influence
school boards down to the textbook selection level. Even in a democratic
republic, education is still highly skewed.

jutta_schmitt2002: True Carl, propaganda starts at a very early age, and
perhaps much less complex than is to be suspected.

nonpositivism: And poor, patriotic education which bears little relation
to reality tries through Oral traditions and through the Public
and Private schools to continue this "tradition" into the next generations.

juttafranz: Folks, don't forget our central theme today, that we are as
free as healthy birds in a non-human environment, that is one of
our beautiful qualities in our weekly chats, but something detrimental
could be to miss the colonial boat across the Rubicon. Read
back my introduction, and check our topic today!

nonpositivism: All the Government has to do is "manage" the task and
coax it along with patriotic rhetoric and selective funding. A lot
of the engine is coming from below. That's why it's important not to
romaniticize America's working and lower middle-classes, who
often are vital players in trying to limit and patriotically "direct" education.

jutta_schmitt2002: Consider all the norms, traditions and "values" that a
kid is spoonfed from the very moment it enters the cradle. Preparing the
terrain for the future patriots, for our future boys to be roasted in Vietnam
and elswhere, starts in the cradle, where the boys play with their miniature
tanks and soldiers and rambos etc. It continues as soon as the little fingers
can press the keyboard buttons of a decent computer and tune in into all
those "lovely" and "entertaining" shoot-and-eliminate video games!

carlzim: Free to enjoy music? After chat, isten to international radio, mainly
music, including stations from Germany, Poland and Russia online.
Click the link below, then scroll down
To the country of your choice: Carl
http://home.att.net/~lesrobinson/

juttafranz: I would suggest that you reserve all these most important,
relevant topics for the next upcoming chats -- I will be most
happy to reserve the themes for you. Is that OK?

jutta_schmitt2002: Valid observation about the American (and elsewhere)
working and especially middle classes, Scott.

nonpositivism: Jutta, no doubt about it. Video games/flight simulators are
about war and war-making. Even the love affair America has each Sunday
in the Fall with professional American football (an extremely violent game)
echoes this.

juttafranz: We are the topic today! Our Chats, their essence, their existence,
how we could excel them -- critique! Improvement.

nonpositivism: That's one of the reasons why Bush and company can
stir up War fever quite easily now. All the "infrastructure" and ideology
is in place. All they need to do is exploit mass communication through
the Big 7 that legally control 90% of all media.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, our theme today: Did our chats and debates elevate
and sharpen our social consciousness? Did we reach new degrees of
understanding?

carlzim: I suggest we start with a central theme, then branch off in diverse
topics to broaden discussion.

juttafranz: But, Carl, not to lose the "red, communist thread", not to get
lost in infinity.

nonpositivism: What is going on here to build War fever, manufacture
consent that we should go to war with Iraq is a fantastic education in
how thought control is accomplished in a nominally democratic society.
Aldous Huxley had very, very astute comments about this which have
only been proven right. Also see the great 1976 film Network for a brilliant
look at how TV is used in this game.

jutta_schmitt2002: There almost seems to be no loophole left in what is
a perfect network of the permanent, almost Pavlov-like conditioning of
the minds and actions in order to gain total control over people's thoughts
and accordingly behaviour.

carlzim: Jutta, I think we have. We predicted many events in previous
chats that recently occurred, and continue to do so today.

juttafranz: Imagine, if Bush's topic is the "Attack on Iraq", and he gives
a speech about Alladin's Magic Lamp.

nonpositivism: What has been immensely enlightening to me in these
chats is the International perspective. Americans look inward a lot, but
seldom outward. We also almost never have a positive thing to say in
public about another country. "We're the Best, We're the greatest, etc."
That is why it is invaluable to have the opposite point of view, unfiltered.

jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Carl. I also think we have widened our social
consciousness and even predicted how things would develop on a world
wide scale.

juttafranz: Carl, and everybody else, what did we predict scientifically and
philosophically?

juttafranz: And what gave us the possibility, via our chats, and internet
"work", to achieve this?

juttafranz: For example, years before Bush' "victory", we predicted it --- why?

jutta_schmitt2002: We predicted the coming "era of wars", Franz, in terms
that correspond with our general analysis about the labour
process - that billions of superfluous, that is manual labour forces will
have to be physically eliminated "by social order", because the
era of intellectual labour stands on the order of the "historic" day.

carlzim: We predicted 9/11-type attacks, human-made natural disasters
using HAARP, USA economic downturn, continued
MKULTRA mind control, e.g., school shootings.

juttafranz: What do we know about "Flying Saucers", where and how did
we get our information in the Disinformation Epoch?

jutta_schmitt2002: Just like millions and millions of "natives" all over Africa
and North and South America were physically exploited and then eliminated
in the era of "discovery", of the beginning of the world market, millions more
will have to vanish in order to give way for the new "mode of post-production".

juttafranz: How did we learn about colonies on Mars and the Moon? How
did this affect our "social consciousness"?

carlzim: Because we understood the trend in globalization and the labor
process.

juttafranz: What do we know today about the "Aliens"? And how do we
know that they come from the Pentagon and Los Alamos?
Without our chats and internet activity, where, when and how would we
have known all these things?

carlzim: We learned about the space colonies via unconventional people
and media.

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, thanks to our very diverse, controverse and
dynamic crew, we got to know about things and trends we did not have
a clue before!

juttafranz: Who would ever have told us about Tesla Technology? What
does it mean to us to know this? Also about Reich's Orgone?

juttafranz: This is our topic today -- it is diverse, multiverse ... we could
speak hours and hours about it.

jutta_schmitt2002: We learned a lot in the chats, and perhaps some of us
were utterly surprised if not to say shocked, when events turned into a
direction we had, in this sense, predicted.

juttafranz: You see, Carl, we need some "stock-taking", some "stock-
exchange" of the mind, of our ideas, to enrich each other.

nonpositivism: Franz et al., in regard to your diverse and multiverse remark
I would like to ask for your intuitive, quick answers to this question:

juttafranz: This I think is one of our most excellent achievements, that relates
the Crew.

juttafranz: It also generated a happiness, a joy, to talk to each other: in short,
a love for each other, without alienation, sadism and masochism.

nonpositivism: Do you think the Universe (or multiverse, etc. if you prefer)
can be rationally understood, as if by connected intellectual threads and
organized knowledge sufficient in number and properly organized....or is
everything disconnected? Or are both true?

juttafranz: The very emancipatory love that we speak about: our transjective.

jutta_schmitt2002: The most difficult thing to accomplish is to have an ear,
eye, antenna and brain for unusual, unknown, "alien", out-of-the-box thoughts.
In this regard, Franz eloquently likes to evoke the example of the "Polynesians",
who, for historical reasons, were not in a position to see the big Caravels of
Captain Cook arrive before their very noses, but only saw the small canoes. The
warning is there for us to stay: we might be "Polynesians" in many a respect, and
ought to have a mind open to the im-possible, if necessary.

nonpositivism: I ask this question because Gore Vidal made an interesting
assessment of leadership some years ago and observed that the key
was never governing in a logically consistent manner as if things were
rationally connected, but recognizing that nothing is connected and
intuitively making the best decisions at the moment. Any comments?

jutta_schmitt2002: Both and MORE are "true", Scott. The problem, according
to my own understanding: we cannot fathom the multi-verse in traditional
ways of thinking and reasoning. But we can approach it, just like you just
tried to formulate it: it is, at least, BOTH - continuous AND discrete, connected ..

nonpositivism: In that respect maybe I'm the exception. I have changed
my philosophy past the age of 25. I now believe that most connectedness
is a human imposition, an illusion, a survival mechanism. The universe is a
madhouse.

nonpositivism: When I was in my teens I believed that Mathematics could
articulate the entire Universe.

carlzim: Scott, IMHO leaders who function by Vidal model include Castro
and Saddam.

juttafranz: Scott, you understand with your intellect, and it is only "good"
for universal things; Reason is a bourgeois unvention, an expression of
capital accumulation, profits, natural and social destruction. With Reason
you get nowhere, nowhere beyond the Universe. But, we had extra-universal
visitors here, they even created the Universe, for example, God the Father
in whom billions believe; then, his two extra-universal sons paid us an "alien"
visit here; the one we even crucified -- he'll never come back again. The
other one is still with us -- in the soul of Bush. So, there are other -verses,
for example, Heaven, New Jerusalem, Hell, Nirvana, etc.

nonpositivism: Even if it can give us the illusion of some order and predict
some patterns, it's still a madhouse. And as John Lukacs says, totally
unpredictable. On that basis I disagree with some previous comments here.
I don't think these chats have successfully predicted any real specifics. But
the interpretation of trends has been unique, individual and very stimulating.

nonpositivism: Interesting comments of yours, Carl because Vidal was
specifically referring to candidates and politicians who succeed
in the American system! One of the reasons he thought that Adlai Stevenson
lost out to Kennedy.

juttafranz: A Freudian slip "un-vention", but it is more precise than "in-vention"!!

nonpositivism: Adlai Stevenson made the mistake of appealing to cerebral
rationality.

carlzim: Actually, Adlai as UN rep exposed Soviet lies in Cuban missile
crisis (1962).

jutta_schmitt2002: (Scott - I will certainly mail you some specific predictions
we made in our chats. Please give me some time after the chat and I will look
in Franz' database for a very specific chat I have in mind here - about two years ago -
predicting important things of the present. However, you will be the judge upon
receiving the material. ) jutta_schmitt2002: We did NOT yet learn to stop agreeing
and disagreeing, Franz! ))))))

iiiiriiiis: I see you are discussing another aspect, nevertheless a brief remark on
the quite interesting meaning of the Latin phrase above, Franz, on which I have
been thinking about quite some moments here - learning for "life", for "reality",
which translates exactly into a "carreer" as a perfectly doped and shattered
deplorable so called "existence", fitting at best to a 100% into the needs of "life",
of the Labour Process; no enthusiasm, no questions, no doubts, no "I", no "We",
no consciouseness left. Linking up that short comment about the content and
meaning of a supposedly "obvious" term or phrase with our today's topic, as to
me, our offline discussions and online chats generally allow and encourage us to
exactly question the seemingly "known". ---

juttafranz: One thing is sure: We did not yet learn to think beyond simple formal
logics, formal systemic, uni-versal conceptualizations.

juttafranz: We did not yet learn to contradict, to think, to agree a n d disagree
with each other.

jutta_schmitt2002: Iris, that is exactly the "purpose" of our being together in chats,
and when realtime circumstances allow it, in person: express our joy, energy and
creativity, and overhaul our own thinking as best and as permanently as we can.

iiiiriiiis: As to me, Franz: I agree with you in so far as your statement
applies to me AND I disagree in so far as it does not apply to you.

juttafranz: We are somehow in the situation of Cecil John Rhodes, who
shortly before his death said: "So much to do, so little done". imagine, the
man even said: "If I could, I would annex the planets" Well, he just had to
wait for a half-a-century or so, for the Russians and Americans to launch
the postheliocentrist colonization.

jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - excellent. Please elaborate further, in how far you
disagree!

jutta_schmitt2002: So much to think, to do and to excel - so little thought,
done and excelled!

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, as I said before: that is surely the hardest thing
to do - to think contradictory, that is, in a dynamic way, taking into
considerations all sides of the coin (three, as far as I know ) , and lead the
argumentation and debate along these "lines" and further.

juttafranz: In our way of thinking, how we express ourselves, how we
behave to visitors, among ourselves, how do we handle "agree"or/and
"disagree" issues, Iris?

carlzim: Jutta, e.g., we accepted the growth of nationalism and one world
globalization, which are apparently contradictory but actually aren't.

jutta_schmitt2002: However, we are like the Bamboo: our very strength
lies in our flexibility!

juttafranz: Do we want to "kill" the other, because (s)he is such a nut, do
we ban anyone from our chats; under what circumstances,do they
themselves leave?

jutta_schmitt2002: Franz --- by the very "nature" of our crew, of our modus
pensandi and modus actuandi, each and everybody is absolutely free to
join and leave at their own comfort. This is a real principle of freedom -
not only thought, not only speech, but of act, of action.

juttafranz: Actually, the most surprizing thing for me was when I read
our very first published chat:
http://www.geocities.com/juttafranz/carl_01.html
that was held nearly four years ago, and to discover a summary of all the
basic things discussed in the following 146 ones, including this very one
today. This is what I call real extemporality, exspatiality, transhistoric chats.
Please read the chat that I sent to you all. Carl & My first chat!!!

iiiiriiiis: We are certainly not banning anyone from our chats, neither to
express his/her thoughts, Franz. The entire "history" of our
chats show, that if anybody leaves, it is because of their own decision.

nonpositivism: The key to creative development - of the self, of the group,
of the species is to retain a child-like ability to perceive unfettered by the
usual boundaries. Interestingly, there is a parallel between the remarks of
Franz and Iris here, and the great children's author Dr. Seuss: all of you
love to literally PLAY with words. Never lose the sens of play.

jutta_schmitt2002: We know no censorship, we know no constraints, as
long as authentic-constructive enthusiasm, be it affirmative, be it negative,
is the intent.

nonpositivism: For your further amusement and consideration, when Einstein
was asked why "Was he the one?" to consider and revolutionize all
principles of Light, Matter, Motion, Gravity, he answered....

juttafranz: To have a chat that has veracity, enriching itself for four years,
in such turbulent, dramatic times, that's what I call emancipatory transcendence.

nonpositivism: " 'Do all clocks move at the same rate?' 'Why does gravity
work like that? etc. were essentially a child's questions. My secret, I remained
a child."

carlzim: Folks, regarding contradiction, read about the UPA who fought
both the Bazis and Soviets in WW2:
http://hometown.aol.com/shukhevych/
UPA: The Ukrainian Insurgent Army Webpage
What was the UPA?

jutta_schmitt2002: Brilliant answer of Einsteins, Scott! May we all remain
childs in this creative sense! ..... And: May we, at this point, give a HUGE
credit to our dear friend Carl Zimmerman, who was there "when it all began"
and has hardly missed a single chat ever since! Carl, here is my *applause*!

carlzim:
The Ukrainska Povstanska Armiia, or UPA, was formed October 14, 1942
in Volyn. Its commander in chief was Roman Shukhevych, alias Taras
Chuprynka. The UPA was the military branch of the Oganization of Ukrainian
Nationalists, or OUN. The goal of the UPA was nothing less than an
independent Ukraine, free of all foreign occupation. However, the UPA
was caught between the world's two largest totalitarian regimes- Nazi
Germany and the Soviet Union. The two were fighting each other during
this time, and neither was going to give up Ukraine's fertile land and many
natural resources without a fight.

carlzim:
The UPA was a guerrilla army, and unlike many other guerrillas armies in
WW2 and since, the UPA never received any outside help from foreign
powers. The UPA's weapons were mostly guns and ammunition captured
from the Nazis or Soviets. Their uniforms were a mixture of everything from
captured enemy uniforms (without the insignia, of course) to whatever they
had at home. The UPA did have some training schools forofficers, but
most training came from "on-the-job" experience.
Another interesting aspect of the UPA was that people of many different
nationalities could be found within the UPA. The UPA had thousands of
Russians, Georgians, Armenians, Uzbeks, Azerbaijanis, Germans, Italians,
and Tartars.

nonpositivism: Carl, turn on your Voice Chat and you can literally hear the
Spontaneous ovation from the worldwide participating audience!

carlzim: The UPA also frequently made leaflets addressed to Red Army
soldiers, calling on them to join the UPA against Stalin. Many Jews could
be found in the UPA, as doctors and medical orderlies.
Stories of Jewish UPA doctors fighting it out with Nazis or Soviets to the
end to protect their patients were not uncommon. People of many different
nationalities owe their lives to the UPA, who would frequently rescue
prisoners during raids on enemy convoys, deportation centers, railway
systems, and from Gestapo, SS and NKVD custody. At its peak in 1944,
the UPA had around 500,000 men and women from various nationalities
within its ranks, working as soldiers, medics, informants, saboteurs, etc.

carlzim: Two men who were assassinated by the UPA were Chief of Staff of
the Nazi SA Viktor Lutze, as well as Red Army Marshall Nikolai Vatutin.
After the Soviet re-occupation of western Ukraine in 1944, the NKVD quickly
began a campaign to root out the UPA freedom fighters on an immense
scale. Entire villages were deported and destroyed, family members
threatened by the secret police, and there were large-scale battles between
the UPA and Soviet forces. Some UPA units were ordered to go west and tell
the world about their struggle against the Soviet Union, such as Company 95,
which fought its way from Ukraine to West Germany and made it to freedom in
September of 1947.

jutta_schmitt2002: (Carl is in the heat of the debate --- he will read back later)

carlzim: Out of more than 100 men in Company
95, only 36 insurgents made it to West Germany.
Roman Shukhevych, the brave leader of the UPA, was in his hideout in the
Lviv suburb of Bilohorshka recovering from a long illness when his house
was surrounded by Soviet MVD troops. Fighting it out to the end, Shukhevych
killed himself and several nearby Soviets with his last grenade. He died
March 5, 1950. Coincidentally, Stalin died March 5, 1953, exactly three years
after Shukhevych died. The UPA's last official military engagement occurred
in October 1956, when some UPA survivors fought bravely on the Hungarian
border to assist the Hungarian anti-Communist revolt.
We can NEVER forget the sacrifices of so many of Ukraine's bravest sons
and daughters. Their wish for an independent Ukraine finally

juttafranz: Carl, why did and still does contradiction get such a "bad" press
coverage? Who fears contradiction, thinking, and why?

jutta_schmitt2002: It seems we are kind of a virtual internet-UPA, Carl, also
confronting turbulent times and trying to grasp them in contradictory terms.

carlzim: We can NEVER forget the sacrifices of so many of Ukraine's bravest
sons and daughters. Their wish for an independent Ukraine finally came August
24, 1991.

juttafranz: Will "contradiction" cause chaos, madness in the social mind?
If people learn to contradict will they end up in the loony bin? Why does
universal education, in all university, forbid contradiction, that's why "I
disagree ..." had to be invented, is still in full force.

jutta_schmitt2002: Contradiction is the very fabric of our times, Franz
and Carl. Growing nationalism in an increasingly globalized
world, growing concentration of riches and wealth in ever fewer hands,
seemingly perfect technological means to remedy many a dire
problem and an ever bigger threat of mass extinction of the species.

juttafranz: Why are we afraid to contradict ourselves? Will we be seen as
"stupid" academically?

jutta_schmitt2002: As contradictions become "evident" in reality, it is about
time the minds adjusted accordingly.

nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz, the best answer for that ever given was by
the great American poet Walt Whitman:

nonpositivism: INDEED: "Do I contradict myself?...Well then I contradict
myself. I am large, I contain multitudes."

juttafranz: Does not contradiction reveal other realities? Not only the one
and the same, eternal, absolute, boring "educationally correct" madhouse.

jutta_schmitt2002: That's what contradiction is all about - containing
multitudes, and beautifully expressed by Walt Whitman. Thanks, Scott.

juttafranz: Are we not eager to investigate the contradictory unknown?
To do this, we have to act and think in contradiction.

nonpositivism: Another thing we must recognize is individual variation.
Every single conscious being has unique and subjective thoughts and
experience. These remain the most important considerations for any
individual. It also explains why changing someone else's opinion or
perspective is very difficult and sometimes impossible. Of this reality we
must be tolerant.

nonpositivism: Yes, Jutta too bad the world's "leaders" of the 20th
century were unable to do this and 200 Million people were killed
as result.

nonpositivism: Because our dark side often meets even ideological
resistance with violence.

juttafranz: Imagine what would happen with the State, with the Social
Contract, the Constitution, the laws! Would chaos break out -- or would
the truth about this system, at last, be revealed? I am not talking about
intrasystemic contradiction, about dialectics, I am talking about ex-trasystemic
dialogics.

jutta_schmitt2002: Yet I may ask: how many individuals, in the sense you
described above, are still left on the planet? In other words, how many
"Winstons"?

jutta_schmitt2002: Are not the majority of people walking expressions
of what ideology taught them, of consumerism, of ignorance
and so on? -- sorry to see you leave, Josué!

juttafranz: And not debris, quagmires, sewerage receptacles of capital,
production, egoism, vice, megalomania and perversion.

jutta_schmitt2002: If all individuals were, what Scott just described, we
would not have much of a problem with the world! Bye bye Josué!

nonpositivism: If I may throw a bit of "independently patriotic" remarks
on that issue, Jutta to elaborate:

juttafranz: I suggest that someone should introduce a chat explaining
the difference between Ideology and Philosophy.

juttafranz: Sometimes we use the concepts as synonyms, sometimes as a
contradiction.

nonpositivism: One of America's greatest contributions to civilization,
perhaps THE greatest, was the separation of Church and State
developed articulate best by Jefferson and enshrined in the 1st Amendment
to our Constitution (the Bill of Rights). It basically posits that there are sacred,
subjective considerations for each individual which must remain beyond the
reach of any State power. This was very, very radical and partially a reaction
to 300 years of continuing religious war in Europe. If only we could extend
that mode of tolerance more generally, there would be more hope for Humanity.

jutta_schmitt2002: Philosophy is authentic, pioneering thinking that breaks
through the established parameters, whereas ideology is the distorsion of
reality and the deliberate keeping the minds clouded.

jutta_schmitt2002: Truly so, Scott, and I understand that the thinkers of the
Enlightenment pursued very much the same matter, many of them leaving
space for sacred individual considerations on the one hand and promoting
the separation of Church and State on the other hand.

nonpositivism: Jutta, here's one for you. Education is mostly hypnosis
and suggestion taking place in a specific power relationship in a bureaucracy.
Philosophy is Love of Knowledge. They are at best very, very distant cousins
in a large family of human communication.

carlzim: Just got this e-mail from a Crew forum:
The following message was sent to you by RIVERSEND while viewing
your Profile on DelphiForums.com:

To view RIVERSEND's Profile, visit
http://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-app/showprofile.asp?uname=RIVERSEND

Thanks for sending me the message on the Innovative Methods of Reasoning
forum. I came to this site, because I have become very involved in the
local public school, the gifted programs, and the special ed programs.
Our superintendent is quite forward thinking, and our current Strategic
Planning committee for the schools (I am a member) is having a futurist
come to speak to us so we can help our students move forward and be
prepared for what will come, rather than studying only the classics and
being prepared for what will come, rather than studying only the classics and
being prepared for what has been.

juttafranz: Exactly so, Jutta, if you separate Church and State, what jumps up?
Ideology!!

jutta_schmitt2002: But one thing is an independent thinker, who has his/her true,
authentic, sacred thoughts, and another thing is what we have recently sketched
as the "follower-psyche", the ones who, for one reason or the other, do not have
any authentic thoughts of their own.

nonpositivism: Jutta, regarding your remarks below, I would love to learn
more about these Thinkers some of whom undoubtedly influenced
Jefferson. Who were some of them, and what books or treatises or essays
of theirs can I read?

carlzim:
I thought I might find something interesting on this site - may introduce
a topic myself - but no time today. I have a book on futurism to read
today prior to a planning meeting tonight (required reading to be on the
committee - pretty cool, huh?).
Thanks for the thought. I'll try to put something together about
education in the new age and put it out there for food for thought!
Lil

juttafranz: An example of ideology, with a mechanical, materialist, non-holy
base: positivism, empiricism, pragmatism, facts.

jutta_schmitt2002: Fine definitions, Scott. ---- Carl: a timely contribution
from one of your forum readers!!

jutta_schmitt2002: Read Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Smith, Bentham, Mill,
Montesquieu, Rousseau, Voltaire, Diderot!

iiiiriiiis: Yes, Jutta and Franz, but it seems to me that there's still something
more to "Philosophy" - as it served from the point to go in order to elaborate
what we would call ideology, the distortion of reality and the deliberate keeping
the minds clouded as you, Jutta, so concisely put it. Maybe we would have to
search for another term here, in order to denominate "Philosophy" in our sense.

nonpositivism: Jutta of those I have read all but Bentham, Montesquieu,
Voltaire and Diderot. In all the writings of those I have read I was never,
ever able to find anything substantive about the separation of Church
and State. Are you sure this is not true of the 4 I have not yet read?

juttafranz: Jutta, you answered all the questions concerning these folks
for the students this morning, kindly elaborate for Scott, and for us.

jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, it is the "Zeitgeist" that reflects itself in these thinkers,
and that can be grasped. Their writings, their very methods, their proposals
of science are directed against the established feudal order. Diderot, in his
"Lettre sur les aveugles" for example, attacks the existing social order by
explaining the problems of getting to know "God" empirically, through the senses.

juttafranz: What is the quintessence of the enlightenment of this group of
radical bourgeois thinkers? Iris could add Adam Smith, who belongs to this
group.

jutta_schmitt2002: Hobbes clearly advocates the separation of Church
and State, Scott. Read his Leviathan.

jutta_schmitt2002: And make sure you capture the entire "Zeitgeist" in these
writings, Scott. (-- How do you translate Zeitgeist in English?)

jutta_schmitt2002: Gestalt would rather be the shape, the form, the silhouette.
Zeitgeist is "spirit of the time", exactly, Franz. Thanks.

nonpositivism: Those who publicly advocated the removal of the church
from secular power, a true division betwen the two in Europeof the 18th
or prior Centuries were taking a big political risk it seems. Maybe even
risking their lives.

jutta_schmitt2002: So capture both, Scott: the Gestalt - the silhouette of
an upcoming new social order - and the Zeitgeist - the revolutionary thoughts
that detonate the old, closed, feudal cosmovision.

juttafranz: In fact, it is the "social order", "Gesellschaftsauftrag", that the
major thinkers of an epoch express.

nonpositivism: European governments were infamous for a zero tolerance
policy. Look at what they did to poor Giordano Bruno, Copernicus, Galileo,
etc. I wonder what would have happened to even Isaac Newton had he
advocated the separation of Church and State!

jutta_schmitt2002: Exactly, Scott - attacking the foundations of the
established feudal order, let alone advocating the removal of the
clergy and noblesse from political power was equivalent to risking
their lives. -

juttafranz: They were the torch-bearing victims saluting the upcoming
epoch, the political and scientific victory of the mergent classes, Scott.

nonpositivism: You know, this very radical concept may be fundamentally
"unnatural" for the Human species. All local tribes seem to have local
customs and specific religions. High degree of conformity and exclusivity.
To develop customs based on tolerance and inclusiveness seems much,
much harder.

jutta_schmitt2002: There is an excellent metaphor of Giordano Bruno's
with regard to the respective degrees of consciousness: He says
consciousness is like a window frame. Some have a smaller frame and
see a smaller part of reality, which constitutes their ENTIRE cosmovision,
and others have a bigger frame and see a bigger part of the reality, containing
what other people can see AND MORE.

juttafranz: They were the revolutionary " co-lateral damage" of the coming
"Reign of Terror" of the sharp blade of the violent guillotine.

juttafranz: To his assassinators, he said something even more interesting
for us: You fear me more, than I fear you!

nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz and Iris: What do you think would happen
in Venezuela if the Catholic Church were suddently stripped of all power,
privilege, and legal protections and favoritism from govt. authorities?

iiiiriiiis: The quintessence of "enlightenment" and it's historical objective
was double sided - 1) to attack the feudal economico-political-social system
(e.g. advocate the separation of Church and State as Jutta already indicated)
and at the same time 2) to elabourate the ideological foundation - the upgraded
"Zeitgeist" of the coming stage of the production process with regard to
social discrimination / racism--- read Montesquieue's "humanistic", "humanitarian"
cosmovision, conceptualization of "freedom", "liberty", and "human rights"
as clearly shown in his "The spirit of laws", Book XV:

http://www.arts.adelaide.edu.au/personal/DHart/ETexts/Enlightenment/
Montesquieu/SpiritOfLaws1748/Part3.html#anchor608801

carlzim: Folks, I must leave. I enjoyed the chat. Fran sends her regards to all. Bye.

nonpositivism: Thanks for the link, Iris. I've already looked at it and will
return to it. Very (dare I say it?)....Enlightening.

nonpositivism: Franz: Because you and Jutta have mentioned to me many
times the role that the institutional Catholic Church there plays in
ideological subservience and fatalism and (more rarely) actions of the
poorer classes. So I'm trying to imagine what it would be like if this
disappeared as a political force.

juttafranz: Do you want to found -- instead af an "Endowment Fund" --
a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the Lord's Shepherds?

jutta_schmitt2002: Scottttt: No joking! The Chavez government had
heavily taken on the privileges and posessions of the Church,
and made quite a handful of "holy enemies". Chavez is siding with sort
of a theology of liberations, that directs itself against the institutionalized,
corrupt Church. Thus, the clerical organization "Opus Dei" was heavily
involved in the failed coup d'état in April.

nonpositivism: Very interesting. So the Church there is not monolithic.
If it were to disappear though, would not the resultant situation
tend to favor more resistance to authoritarian power. It seems the
Church's forces are unequally on the side of Reaction.

jutta_schmitt2002: But I think people could not really take it, if their Catholic
Church as an institution that also benefits heavily from the entire corrupt
political system, would simply fade away or be abolished. There would be
a public outrcry and rebellion, if that came to happen.

nonpositivism: It seems to ingrained then, to disrupt or remove entirely
without causing severe convulsions. I understand. It seems "separation
of Church and State" has no resonance there. The Spanish Empire had
a lot to do with that.

juttafranz: It is that the Roman Catholic Church here does not hang in
mid-air, as an obsolete dish-cloth, but it is based in a concrete,
"underdeveloped", "emergent" reality. To get rid of it, presupposes to
get away with the pre-industrial, partly absolutist, feudalist structures here.
Never mind fourth oil-producing country -- Saudi Arabia and Iraq are
No. 1 & No. 2, and look what is going on there, the Ottoman Empire ---
the social reality is historically extremely "backward" -- education on the
level of Voodoo Haiti.

jutta_schmitt2002: People are conditioned to be "led" by their charismatic
"leaders", perhaps here more than elsewhere. The entire Catholic personal
cult of saints, priests, mixed with a good portion of "superstition", leads to
people needing to stick to a person, a patron, a savior (Chavez, in the eyes
of the poor) who guides them and tells them what to do and what not.

nonpositivism: When you look at how the Spanish Empire raped, pillaged
and plundered the New World without even the trappings of democracy
(deliberately shutting out the Renaissance in Spain for centuries besides)
you begin to understand the legacy of how the largely Indian populations
have come to be dominated, with the payment from virtue to vice mediate
by the Church. nonpositivism: That plus the charismatic leader phenomenon
explains it perfectly, Jutta.

nonpositivism: It scares me. Politics there seems as volatile as a football
match. Mob and passions and violence seems to rule. Not much reason,
not much restraint or tolerance. And it bothers me that this is accepted as
"the norm" by Venezuelans
.
nonpositivism: What you illustrated, too, Jutta clearly has parallels with
Castro's continuing charisma inside Cuba. Ever since that white dove landed
on him when he reached Havana and spoke to Cuba over 40 years ago..........

jutta_schmitt2002: It has "worked" for a long time, Scott. The volatility
of politics, however, is not always only an intrinsic or an internal matter,
but often has to do with a constellation of international forces and interests.

juttafranz: Furthermore, everybody, especially the poor, still has the
charity syndrome here, that Father State should look after its lambs,
that everything is personified, personalized, is populistic; that everybody
could be converted, be educated, be shown the right road; here never
ever has occurred any revolution: Chavez is launching the very first one
-- but with Rousseau's Social Contract and with the Roman Catholic Bible.

nonpositivism: I think of santaría (the religious trance, ritual, sacrifice, etc.)
and how Castro has "tolerated it". It helps funnel energy and it actually
strengthens his hold.

jutta_schmitt2002: However, never in 12 (and as far as Franz is concerned, 23)
years have we seen the spirits that agitated in Venezuela, or have we seen so
many people in the streets - from both sides, the government supporters and
the opposition - in order to express their political stand.

nonpositivism: Franz, very interesting interpretation there. This is why I love
these Chats. Such a perspective never surfaces inside the USA. Never.

jutta_schmitt2002: Never have we seen weekly mass demonstrations of
hundreds of thousands of people, never have we seen so many conferences
on current politics, so many initiatives, so much movement, so much political
involvment "from the street".

juttafranz: Scott, I visited the "Astrum" and the "Tres Potencias" here
already, I bought some Azawache amulets for the Pandemonium Crew,
to defend them against all evil. I think your idea is excellent!

nonpositivism: Franz, now you must prepare the animal sacrifice, the blood
offering!

juttafranz: That's complicated --- could I use Ketchup-Heinz instead of blood?

jutta_schmitt2002: But Franz and Scott: It actually DOES WORK on the
personal level. Think of Adam, who directed himself to the mayor of Mérida,
asked for a financial contribution for a medical exam his son has to take,
and actually got it. --- Pandevoodium Crew, I see ....

nonpositivism: Franz, I see you've been influenced more by Hollywood
films than I thought.........

jutta_schmitt2002: Shall we now reveal the beneficiaries of the Asavache
Amuletts, Franz?

nonpositivism: Please do. The suspense is unnerving. I must leave chat
in a few minutes.......

juttafranz: Yes, Jutta, Carl might get a real shock, if I suddenly send
Pandevoodooian Watches to the Crew!

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay. Iris and Stella, here is bad news: your Asavache
Amuletts have stranded in Lissabon, where Axel's suitcase
missed the plane .... (

nonpositivism: I would like to say that for some reason this Pandemonium
Conference was the most enjoyable for me personally in quite some time.
Not sure why. Just had good chemistry and some good cooks.

jutta_schmitt2002: I'm glad to hear you enjoyed that conference in particular,
Scott. And Iris: "Hope" is the last thing that dies, isn't it?
The suitcase may arrive in a couple of days, and you can pick the Amuletts
up at Axel's place.

juttafranz: Don't worry, the "Contras" -- so they are also called -- will reach
their destination, Iris. Soon you will be save again!

jutta_schmitt2002: We thought Iris and Stella may need some protection
against adverse circumstances of life, such as university exams, final papers
etc., Scott. If nothing else helps .... )))

nonpositivism: Haha....!...For the next Conference if you like we should
activate Voice chat. No one need speak, but I will play intense rhythms
and music we all can hear. We can then probe the mystique of charismatic
power, suggestion and ultimately political power under actual conditions.
Perhaps it would lead to new creative syntheses!

juttafranz: Scott, perhaps the next chat you could introduce, teaching
us some alchemy, or finding out some way to make gold, or even black
gold.

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay guys, so let us come to an end for today's
conference. We chatted for almost 3 and 1/2 hours and my stomach is
ringing here.
jutta_schmitt2002: Count us in, Scott!
juttafranz: Yes, folks, it was a pleasure indeed.
nonpositivism: OK, I'm serious about this. In the interim within the next few
days, let's test it and see if you can pick up the Music in stable Yahoo
Conference session. If it works with 3 people, that's a good sign.
jutta_schmitt2002: About the next topic ... let us see, with what we come
up, Franz. Let us do some brain storming and communicate within the
next 72 hours about the results.
juttafranz: Until next time, keep up the "Zeitgeist" -- the tendency
towards blue -- towards the dark night, when the candle flame turns
azure.
nonpositivism: I have saved this entire Chat transcript for anyone who
needs it.
juttafranz: And Malvolio and Hamlet sneak around in the dark.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ok, Scott. Franz, Iris: it's been a pleasure. Jesús:
a toast to you and good bye. See you next time.
iiiiriiiis: I will have to go and eat something now, too, friends! It was
a pleasure - looking forward to seeing you all next Thursday
again! Taketh care, all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Please send it to Stella, Scott. She is the one who
receives the logs and compares and completes them.
juttafranz: I have it too, Scott. Please send it to me to check if in my
copy there are any loop-holes, automatic censorship.
juttafranz: Anything with non- my PC usually censures.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Iris! Do take care and .... take it easy! Soon, it will
be all over.

juttafranz: Bye!!!
nonpositivism: OK, Jutta and Franz. I will indulge your appetite for critique
and comparison, even of equals. But restrain your auto-censor program! Haha ....
nonpositivism: Bye to all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Iris, bye Jesús.
iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Scott, Jesús, Jutta and Franz!
juttafranz: Bye, Scott. Hahaha ....
juttafranz: Bye, Iris!!!
juttafranz: See you all!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: see youuuuuu
iiiiriiiis: See youuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!
iiiiriiiis: Bye!
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.

**********************************************************************************************

Hi Franz, 

I enjoyed the chat tremendeously, things that were said 
were very "placative", like "the universe is a madhouse" (Scott), or "Reason is a bourgeois unvention" (Franz), to mention my favourite statements in this chat. By the way, 
the Latin sentence you discussed about and Iris had an
interesting reflection about is: "Non scholae sed vitae discimus."  I'll send the edited chat also to Jutta, in 
case that you get problems with your new Netscape-version.

Liebegrüße 

Stella.

p a n d e m o n i u m

Philosophy: Trialogics