Philosophy: Trialogics
(Every Week, Thursday afternoon, on Yahoo,
starting at 2.00 PM, New York, at 2.00
PM. Venezuelan Time,
at 8.00 PM, German Time.)
THE HOPE SYNDROME OF THE FUTURE
CARL (Teaneck, USA).
JESUS (Miami, USA).
SCOTT (Miami, USA).
IRIS (Freiburg, Germany).
STELLA (Mainz, Germany).
JUTTA (Merida, Venezuela).
JUERGEN (Barinas,
Venezuela).
FRANZ
(Merida, Venezuela).
September 26, 2002.
PLEASE NOTE:
Take all the
typographic errors as Pandemonium
Greetings,
it would take hours and hours to edit this
particularmanuscript;
it would absorb too much valuable
"time" to
correct everything!
Hence, please, accept
our apology! We'll check
the manuscript
to avoid any possible errors that may
cause misunderstanding.
Chats, by their very nature,
are not perfect
scientifictreatises.)
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Folks, Visitors & Guests!
In future, until further notice, regularly on Thursdays,
sometimes, even on Sundays, we will have all chats regularly
on Yahoo.
Kindly download and install the latest Yahoo Messenger
and
by e-mail, franzjutta@cantv.net , please, give us your
"Buddy Name".
************************************************************
Saying: Hi!
nonpositivism: Looks like a full house today! Hi All!
juttafranz: Hi! Everybody!!
nonpositivism: Jurgen, it's been awhile since we had you
on. Glad you could make it.
In case you forgot,
my name is Scott. But you can call me nonpositivism if you're not
positive.
gocho24: If he's not positive he can call you nonpositivism?
gocho24: That's a fine piece of philosophy
missnaranjahit: Hi all.
juttafranz: Trying to Invite Carl & Jutta!
iiiiriiiis: Hi! Stella, Scott, Jesús and Franz! I don't see Carl and Jutta?
iiiiriiiis: Okay, Franz.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002
has joined the conference.
nonpositivism: This is more participants than we have ever had before, as far as I can tell.
juttafranz: Jutta is coming to her PC in minutes!
iiiiriiiis: Glad you made, Jutta and Carl! Hello!
nonpositivism: Franz, we are building a mobile army of cyber guerilla Philosophers!
juttafranz: 8 People, a World Record! Fit for entry in the Book Guinness!!
carlzim: Hi, Franz, Jutta, Iris, Stella, Scott, Jesus, Jurgen.
juttafranz: I invited Sarah -- a student of mine, who wants
to accompany us -- she
disappeared in cyber-space,
to make the record still bigger.
nonpositivism: Perhaps she make yet appear, Franz, through the next wormhole.
nonpositivism: Maybe Josue will show up too, u never know...
jutta_schmitt2002: Hi all - Franz, Carl, Iris Scott, who else?
juttafranz: Could anybody try to invite saramroblesc please!
jutta_schmitt2002: I can see Jürgen listed on my screen,
Jesús también, and Stella!
Are you all in and active?
Hi.
nonpositivism: OK, I will invite her, Franz. So we are here
for another orgy of
self-congratulation?
nonpositivism: NO ONE ELSE INVITE SARAH! LET ME DO IT!
juttafranz: Yes, Scott -- the more the merrier -- possibly nine!
nonpositivism: [I have invited Sarah]
nonpositivism: It is important we log and save this Chat
incrementally. Stability with
this many sessions is
in doubt.
juttafranz: She is probably off her desk at the moment!
jurgen784: Hi : jutta ,carlz ,franz.
juttafranz: Folks, as usual, my short introduction, and then
you all could say what you
mean, and mean what
you say!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Jürgen - glad you made it!
missnaranjahit: Hi Jurgen.
nonpositivism: Jesus, I've tried to contact you at various
hours - as late as 10 pm this
week and your Yahoo
status invariably shows "busy". Hope you're not overworked
these days.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ha! Stella - I can see and read you now. Hi!
missnaranjahit: Hi Jutta!
juttafranz: TELL ME WHEN TO START ....
missnaranjahit: I am ready Franz.
gocho24: Ready here.
nonpositivism: Ready, Set..........Go!
BRIEF INTRODUCTION
juttafranz:
Friends, Pandemoniums,
Country(wo)men! Lend me your ears and eyes!
I come to bury the hatchet
not to praise it. The "evil" that "great (wo)men" do, lives after
them, the "good", their
"infinite justice", is oft' interr'd with their bones. ... come I to
speak in our International
Yahoo Chat.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ready to start, Franz.
iiiiriiiis: Ready!
nonpositivism: Ready, Marc Ant...er, Franz.
juttafranz: HATCHET -- WAR-AXE, KRIEGSBEIL!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Go aheadeth o venerable Franzh.
juttafranz:
What is our topic today? I quote: to "continue the discussion
of last week, assessing
our internet education,
making suggestions for improvement, constructive critique,
and suggestions for
future topics and themes of relevance."
juttafranz:
To introduce this momentous
task, very briefly I will just display the psychological
gist of something that
I noted across the last few years; a troublesome reaction to
our internet emancipatory
enlightenment, very often coming from our members, visitors
and guests, that surely
merits immediate, urgent attention. In previous chats we have
dealt with this issue,
but of no avail, the prodigious "Hope Syndrome" like the caritative
"Help The Poor" Psychosis,
inexorably continues its dangerous cause and treacherous
course.
jutta_schmitt2002: Interesting, Franz. Please elaborate.
carlzim: Jurgen, please authorize me to add you to my Yahoo
IM Friend's list, and add
me to your list.
juttafranz:
Time and time again, we are being "accused' of being too
nihilistic, too
pessimistic, "negative"
and "hopeless" in our observations, analysis, and
even "future predictions".
This scenario the absolute majority just "cannot take";
most internet navigators
become "depressed, repressed", they necessitate a more
"positive, hopeful"
attitude, a painting of the "future" in more rainbow colours,
envisaging some "happy
end", true intrasystemic "democracy", real socialism,
eternal heaven on earth.
iiiiriiiis: Scott, please try to get Jutta and Franz back on board.
nonpositivism: OK!
[Yahoo running wild]
missnaranjahit: Welcome back Jutta, Franz and Carl.
nonpositivism: Hopefully we can stabilize here.
carlzim: Hi, folks
juttafranz:
This was my last posting:
Time and time again,
we are being "accused' of being too nihilistic, too
pessimistic, "negative"
and "hopeless" in our observations, analysis, and even "future
predictions". This scenario
the absolute majority just "cannot take"; most internet
navigators become "depressed,
repressed", they necessitate a more "positive, hopeful"
attitude, a painting
of the "future" in more rainbow colours, envisaging some "happy end",
true intrasystemic "democracy",
real socialism, eternal heaven on earth.
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Scott. Welcome back Jutta, Franz and Carl.
carlzim: Thanks, Franz
jutta_schmitt2002: The sabotage has begun ... looks like
the Venezuelan oppositon is
wildly determined to
dominate all spaces
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, are you in?
gocho24: Jutta: I happen to be in the opposition...
carlzim: I'm here
juttafranz: Please SAVE all the fragments!!!
missnaranjahit: I did Franz.
iiiiriiiis: And if they would succeed here, all in all, they have not the slightest chance.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ooops, Jesús. We happen to be neither opposition nor government.
iiiiriiiis: Continue, please, Franz.
gocho24: Jutta: hahahhahahaha
jutta_schmitt2002: ))
juttafranz: Did you get and have you read my posting above?
gocho24: Jutta: Let's say that if I have to choose between
to evils, I'd take the opposition
any day.
nonpositivism: Franz, it's hopeless to expect us to receive your postings of no hope.
juttafranz: Well, let's hope for better postings to come ...
nonpositivism: The last we got was this:
juttafranz: I continue ....
nonpositivism: Time and time again, we are being "accused'
of being too nihilistic, too
pessimistic, "negative"
and "hopeless" in our observations, analysis, and even "future
predictions". This scenario
the absolute majority just "cannot take"; most internet
navigators become "depressed,
repressed", they necessitate a more "positive, hopeful"
attitude, a painting
of the "future" in more rainbow colours, envisaging some "happy end",
true intrasystemic "democracy",
real socialism, eternal heaven on earth.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, perhaps there is a psychological
mechanism in place, that
could be denominated
"conditioned intellectual immune system", that enters the scene
the moment things get
heavy and dire, and that calls for optimism automatically. One of
the heritages of ideology,
tradition, culture - all that affirm the given status quo.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, I received your last posting, continue please.
juttafranz: Some accuse us of having betrayed the poor, of
having betrayed our ideals
of youth, of having
desecrated our revolutionary idols of the roaring "sixties", of Che
and Castro, and even
of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky.
Some probably even think
that we are elitesque, are fascists, communists, terrorists
and atheists -- or simply
stark mad, chronically crazy.
carlzim: We need to broaden the scope of the chats.
juttafranz:
If all these should be true, well, then surely we would be
an inhuman, inhumane,
unhumanist pack, a pack
of treacherous wolves, a malicious cult of marauding
werewolves, betraying
Trotsky's revolutionary dum spiro spero -- as long as I
breathe, I hope -, that
are not reaching out for the stars, void of any inkling of
per aspera ad astra!
juttafranz:
Of course, we have a concept or conception -- more precisely,
a diagory of "Hope";
it is called "Beauty
a n d Truth", that aspires trialogically to "Love", to Historic
Emancipation. But these
many of our readers and guests cannot comprehend. Why?
carlzim: For example,
I suggest that future
chats include comparison of libertarian (individual) vs. collectivist
views in globalization;
e.g.: will the Libertarian focus on the individual help resolve the
Mideast conflict? I
offer the following long message:
http://www.fredriknorman.com/archives/mt/000373.php
When Antiwar-istas Attack
jutta_schmitt2002: (I think we are and exist as a self-dynamizing
"perpetuum
emancipatorie", Franz.)
juttafranz: Agreed. Jutta.
carlzim: This morning I received a note from a Sam Koritz
of Antiwar.com, alerting me
to a column by their
Justin Raimondo. In his piece, Raimondo not only criticises Fredrik
Norman.com, but
goes on to pick on all "Warbloggers" for marching to a similar beat;
a beat supposedly consisting
of love for the war and vehement contempt for all Arabs
-- a beat played by
"little war-bots spawned in cyberspace, springing out
of the psychic ether
like Myrdmidons [sic]".
iiiiriiiis: Beautifully put, Jutta!
juttafranz:
Firstly, as a result of the murderous daily battle for survival
of billions, already having
been reduced to toiling,
inutile atoms, to an agonizing point of no return, to an immediate,
pauperized here and
now, to an alienated carpe diem, where very few human attributes
are still existent,
where we, especially the poor, arduously try to keep body and soul together,
of course, anything
that could aggravate this depressive listlessness and repressive
languidness, would immediately
convert this already psychotic, schizophrenic Dasein
into individual barbarism
and social savagery.
carlzim:
While I can understand
Raimondo and his ideological comrades' frustration from
seeing their antiwar
sentiments picked apart all over the web on a daily basis, this
cannot in any way
justify the misrepresentations and outright lies in his piece.
nonpositivism: Franz, consider Subjective Reality. The abstract
concept of "Hope" you
are articulating may
not resonate for those not initiated into your a priori concepts or
methods of reasoning.
carlzim:
Let's take his paragraphs on yours truly as an example (I'm
sure the other bloggers
mentioned in the article
will be more than happy to write rebuttals of their own). Am I
fanatically pro-Israel,
for instance, as he implies? Hardly. While I'm certainly pro-Israel,
"fanatically" actually
means "possessed with or motivated by excessive, irrational zeal".
carlzim:
My pro-Israel stance
is neither excessive nor irrational; quite the
contrary it is appropriately
measured and rational; based on my recognition of Israel's
right to exist as the
(relatively) free country it is, respecting and (largely) protecting individual
rights-- contrary to
the Palestinians.
juttafranz: It is like trying to convert your staunch believing
Christian grandma into a
modern scientologist
or genetic engineer. You simply can't take her Jesus away from
her; it would be premeditated
murder, instilling matricide. So far advanced already is
the cancer of patrian
lies, of ignorance, disinformation and obscurantism. One should
be happy, that somebody
has accompanied us for a millimetre, for a yard, for a mile, or
even for a second, an
hour, a decade. They just cannot go further; and we should he
happy that they have
exerted their very last bit of energy to see the historic aurora.
carlzim:
Furthermore, I don't
in any way consider Arabs "subhuman creatures devoid of rights"
as Raimondo suggests.
I don't dislike Arabs as such; I dislike Arabs if and when they
commit evil acts --
and only then (just as I only dislike blacks, whites, Asians and Latin
Americans if and when
they do the same).
nonpositivism: Carl and Franz, it's difficult to focus on
Franz's intro with your interjection
on Israeli or media
bias, etc. We need some continuity.
jurgen784: Good suggest carlzim, Im agree with you.
nonpositivism: [After the intro, we can open things up]
juttafranz:
Hence, who cannot take
it anymore, for whom the kitchen become too hot,
whom not even the truth
could liberate anymore, should not be bewailed,
should not be scorned;
on the contrary, we should prepare a delicious farewell
supper for them, and
wish them all the "best" in their future lives. In times like
today, it is a historic
"miracle" that somebody reaches out for us at all; still can
bear the scourging,
scorching Truth about Global Fascism. Hence, folks, this is
my humble contribution
to today's chat. eagerly awaiting your brain thundering
and lightning!
THE DEBATE COMMENCES .....
carlzim: OK, Scott.
juttafranz: Now each one has his/her chance to expound his/her
views in an
orderly manner.
carlzim: After Franz's intro., I am asing all to review my above material.
juttafranz: Thanks, Carl.
missnaranjahit: reading back...
carlzim: Proceed, Franz.
nonpositivism: Franz, much of humanity is "comfortably numb".
Even those who
substantively agree
with you in whole or part are indifferent, just interested in their
own little space, their
own lives. Very, very few people operate with global
consciousness or care
to. That is a severe obstacle to consciousness-changing and
creative dialogue for
global solutions.
carlzim: Thanks, Jurgen.
nonpositivism: While we may have the illusion that the world
is a "global village",
it remains that - an
illusion. All politics is local.
carlzim: Scott, we have a global consciousness, as my later messages will show.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Franz. I think we can verify
some sort of "rejection" of
getting to know global
reality on a daily basis with our students. It seems (correct
me if I'm mistaken,
Jürgen), that the students "resists" in letting anything unknown,
or "strange" for that
matter, disturb them in their way of how they perceive things
and what they do. They
tend to defend their tradition and "values" to a point, where
they even refuse to
see, that there might be something else than that, and things
may not be the way they
thought they are.
nonpositivism: Work UP from the individual, through family,
tribe, region, nation.....
to better fix your understanding.
juttafranz: It's true, Scott.
nonpositivism: Where are the strongest bonds and strongest
ties? Where are the
weakest ones? To whom
am I more connected, my sons or a totally anonymous farmer
in rural China?
nonpositivism: And whose interests will I tend to favor?
carlzim: I cohost the Polish&East European and Russian
forums, and many participants
think globally.
juttafranz: However, it's a problem that we have to face,
to learn to explain to others
what I have expounded
above -- to understand that their limits are not equivalent to
our "nihilism".
nonpositivism: Therefore Franz, the question has less to
do with "Global Hope" than
with Local interest.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - interesting and valid observation.
I ask myself: WHY do just
a handful of people
really care about what is going on beyond their own noses, so to
speak? There is a beautiful
term in the German language: "betroffen sein", which means
"being deeply struck"
by something, having the capability to be sensible. Why is it, that
apparently a vast majority
of the "planetarians" do not seem to have this capacity, do
not seem to care?
juttafranz: And that they should respect their and our limits,
in friendship, beauty, truth
and love.
carlzim: Our local bonds are local but we transcend.
juttafranz: Juergen, still around?
nonpositivism: Jutta, this may be hard for you to accept,
but in my judgment this is a
fundamental limit of
the Human species. We evolved and are programmed for local
concern and short-term
interest. Only a few seem to be able to transcend this even
a little. And in times
of stress or emergency, self-interest (the interest of the local few)
almost always gets preference.
nonpositivism: If this were not the case, there never would
have been a Cold War or
the near Nuclear Wars
we've almost had.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, can you please specify, what "thinking
globally" means? Does
this mean true concern
about the dire matters globalization (and the whole labour
process until now) has
brought about?
nonpositivism: Fortunately we do have a superficial global
awareness, but it does
not have dominant operative
significance in our lives.
juttafranz: On this, I completely agree with Jutta: "They
tend to defend their tradition
and "values" to a point,
where they even refuse to see, that there might be something
else than that, and
things may not be the way they thought they are."
jutta_schmitt2002: (Is Jürgen still amongst us?)
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, would this imply, that the ones
that DO care, that DO have
the sensibility and
capacity to be concerned, to be struck, "transcend" the human species?
nonpositivism: Jutta, yes in a sense you are right. It is
an altered state of consciousness,
unnatural for everyone
and unattainable by most. This is why long-term human survival
is in doubt. Why?
juttafranz: Invite jurgen784, please!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hm. Please elaborate further, Scott.
You are bringing up a new,
unexpected perspective
here.
nonpositivism: Because we need to think globally now, but
very few want to. Look at
how the USA turned its
back on Rio and Kyoto, and the relentless ecological destruction
that has occurred in
only the last 10 years? What could explain such ultimately suicidal
behavior?
carlzim: Suicide for whom, Scott?
carlzim: USA oil importers have thought globally for decades.
nonpositivism: [Suicide for Humanity, Carl]. Only the inherent
weakness of the Human
species in favoring
short-term (decades as opposed to centuries) locally economically
favorable policies for
profit and resource consumption and power relations. That is the
story of Humanity, unlikely
but not impossible to change.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the conference.
nonpositivism: For every Habitat loss area, the Biodiversity
diminishes by the 4th root.
(E Wilson, Harvard).
carlzim: Our conventional media encourages local thinking.
nonpositivism: Why would any Species consciously and willingly
live and reproduce
in a manner that continues
to exhaust and destroy its host? This is literally suicide.
nonpositivism: But it's easily explained because up until
now we have not faced a
population of 12 Billion,
Global Warming, Fossil Fuel potential exhaustion, Habitation
Depletion in every ecological
zone, etc., etc.
nonpositivism: This is very, very new, very recent. For
millions of years humanity lived
just one or two or three
generations at a time and always too a future for granted.
Traditional cultures
and now transformative, but human programming has changed 0.
missnaranjahit: Scott please invite Jutta&Franz.
carlzim: Regarding the
libertarian view of Mideast conflict, I sent it to all by e-mail
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.
[Yahoo running wild]
carlzim: Misconceptions of globalization are being challenged.
Does globalization mean
the free market rules
according to Adam Smith's ideas? Not according to this book.
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/articles.cfm?catid=1&articleid=624
Hand-to-Hand Combat:
Can Competitive Markets
Knock Out Central
Planning?
carlzim:
"Every individual necessarily
labors to render the
annual
revenue of the society
as
great as he can. He
generally neither intends
to
promote the public interest,
nor knows how
much he is promoting
it ... He intends only
his own gain, and he
is in this, as in many
other cases, led by
an invisible hand to
promote an end which
was no part of his
intention." - Adam Smith,
Wealth of
Nations, 1776
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Iris.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Scott.
iiiiriiiis: Thanks. My comment got lost... just give me a moment.
juttafranz: Please, please, keep all your fragments, then,
send them later to
me and to Stella, to
solve the Gordian Knot of our chat today, and to get
the "red thread" again
as document.
jutta_schmitt2002: Who is still missing?
jutta_schmitt2002: Please everybody repost their remarks!
juttafranz: Any (wo)man still off-deck, walking the plank!
Yahoo! Messenger: jurgen784 has joined the conference.
juttafranz: Please repost important remarks that you made while we were in limbo!
carlzim: I'll repeat this material:
Does globalization mean
the free market rules according to Adam Smith's
ideas? Not according
to this book.
nonpositivism: The last thing I said was about Humanity
willfully destroying and
exhausting its host,
Mother Earth in a long term play of species suicide. I also
explained why. Did you
all get that?
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Jürgen! - Carl, Iris,
Scott, Franz, Stella, Jürgen,
everybody - please repost
your remarks before having gotten cut off.
juttafranz: Hi! Juergen, welcome back!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: ok.
jutta_schmitt2002: nope, Scott.
carlzim: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/articles.cfm?catid=1&articleid=624
Hand-to-Hand Combat:
Can Competitive Markets
Knock Out Central
Planning?
juttafranz: What would you call that relation, Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: My repost: jutta_schmitt2002: Hm. Please
elaborate further,
Scott. You are bringing
up a new, unexpected perspective here.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz: Refining my remarks above - the
students (and not only the
students, but this may
be valid for 98% of all planetarians) would not even dare to pose
the famous question
"what if ..."?! What, if all that I've been told so far in my life is a
lie?
What, if "God" did NOT
exist? What, if all the values and morals taught to me serve an
interest that is alien
to me?
carlzim: Lindsey's thesis is that the unworkable policies,
flawed economic practices,
and failed
philosophy of a century-long
failed
experiment in central
planning are
hampering and, in some
instances, crippling
an emerging global marketplace.
juttafranz: The relation of Man, Society, perversely destroying
Planet Earth, for the
sake of his own survival,
to satisfy his "basic needs" only, as historic priority.
juttafranz: What is that, Scott?
carlzim: The Uncertain Struggle for
Global Capitalism is
a hard-hitting, richly
documented defense of
markets that takes
as its animating premise
the idea that the
invisible hand is presently
weighed down by
the dead hand of collectivism.
juttafranz: Sacredness, Scott? Or what?
carlzim: Lindsey's book is thus in
many ways about the
cognitive dissonance
that dominates so much
contemporary
thinking about economics.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, the BIG contradiction of the capitalist
system: free competition,
anarchic production
and the necessity of planning coexist ALL AT THE SAME TIME/SPACE.
nonpositivism: Jutta, it's a little more complex than that:
The individual, the family, the
nation, the tribe, the
region. Good enough for Humanity for thousands of millennia. What
our bodies - our cells
and cultural consciousness - evolved to do. Now we're asking
something unprecedented
from ourselves:
juttafranz: Stella & Iris, what would you call that relation that Scott so accurately defined?
carlzim: Against the Dead Hand develops this idea
in stunning detail,
tracing the history of the
planning mentality from
the 1880s onward,
and showing how that
mentality has
continued to operate
in the economic
decisions governments
have made since the
fall of communism.
nonpositivism: To work from the global level down. To think
of resources such as Air
and Water and Land and
Species as available to all, finite and severely endangered.
Acid Rain, Habitat Loss,
Global Warming etc. do not know boundaries.
juttafranz: To work, to think. Who works, Scott? Who thinks?
juttafranz: Who works and thinks?
nonpositivism: 6 Billion people, possibly going to 12 Billion....massive
Species loss
(the 4th root of Habitat
Loss, see E. Wilson at Harvard), Ozone holes, Massive
depopulation and pollution
of the Seas, Immense poverty and world-wide disease
placing more and more
strain on global adaptation.
carlzim: Scott, how can that be done since some global elites
make big profits from
screwing up air, water,
etc.
juttafranz: In what are the "thinkers" thinking? For what are the "workers" working?
carlzim: Scott, these elites favor massive deopulation of Earth to controllable 1 billion.
juttafranz: Exactly so, Carl.
nonpositivism: Continuing...We understand some of this,
but it's not even an abstraction
for most. Most folks
are still conceptualizing their own families and micro-economics,
and THAT IS THEIR LIMIT.
But you must keep in mind it is far more natural and human
(in our biological and
cultural evolutionary heritage) to think selfishly and locally like this.
We did well enough in
this mode for millions of years.
jutta_schmitt2002: But Scott, are these not "new" elements,
that have entered the social
consciousness recently
and that could not have determined behaviour or thinking earlier?
At an earlier stage
of "mankind", people did not have to deal with this, and this global
problem does not enter
the consciousness at the level of biologics - or does it, in your
opinion? Carl: Imagine
a big, transnational corporation WITHOUT planning and strategy,
how far they would get
vis a vis their competitors!
juttafranz: In that "fact", Scott would find the answers of my questions above.
nonpositivism: One point about this that may shed some light
and integrate Carl's
perspective:
carlzim: Franz, the workers work for crumbs, e.g., Solidarity in Poland.
juttafranz: Juergen still around? What do you think, Juergen?
carlzim: Jurgen, Iris, Stella?
nonpositivism: These so-called elites who exploit and move
huge resources and
capital to benefit the
local few in my opinion know they are destroying the Planet,
know is suicide for
even their progeny and at the same time they are in denial. It is
a peculiar form of doublethink
made possible by historical local programming.
juttafranz: Go ahead, scott --- much more points, not only one ....
juttafranz: Arethey elites or not, Scott? What are they?
juttafranz: Capitalists, ruling classes, Illuminati, Democrats, republicans, ...?
juttafranz: Or do they so-called "exploit"?
jutta_schmitt2002: May I say here I agree with your observation,
Scott, and add:
"Profit over life" is
the name of the programme that conditions the minds of the elites.
jutta_schmitt2002: And "buy until you die" is the counterpart
of the labouring universe
- be it intellectual,
be it physical.
juttafranz: Life Sciences, Jutta, that will profit from the
5 billion massacre of what Carl
spoke about before.
carlzim: Elites--e.g., Bush family-business with Hitler,
Bin Laden's Saudi financers,
Sadaam.
nonpositivism: But Jutta there is the dawning of awareness
- in a sea of doublethink,
yes, but still there
- that may yet provide a margin for hope. I do think that intelligent,
thoughtful elites like
Bill Gates..connected to the best and brightest Physicists and
Biologists all over
the world, may yet find it in their best interest to reverse the trend
toward suicide.
jutta_schmitt2002: And finally: "It takes TWO to tango - the ruling and the ruled.
carlzim: Rockerfellers-oil importers.
jutta_schmitt2002: It takes two to tango on the sinking Titanic.
juttafranz: Iris and Stella, still around? Tell us what the
German universities and
elections say about
this issue. Has Schroeder become a pacifist?
carlzim: Agreed, Scott.
carlzim: Does Schroeder think Bush Jr.=Hitler?
carlzim: Putin=Stalin? He issued silver coins in Stalin's honor.
juttafranz: "The trend toward suicide"? What will Bill Gates
do with 5 billion useless
'mad cows", Scott? Feed
them and their offspring until eternity?
iiiiriiiis: I was about to add to your remarks above, Jutta
and Franz, concerning the
mechanism of fierce
defense of the "tradition" and "values" adopted which you
mentioned, that since
they are endlessly and hopelessly dependent on "the system",
on its illusions and
"hope", they necessarily have to defend it by all means. The crucial
point is, however, that
in the final analyses by doing so, they don't defend "something
out there", "independent"
from their lives, some "tradition" or "values" in itself, which
should not be questioned
- but rather themselves, their way of "thinking" and "acting",
or rather their believe-
and behaviour patterns. The problem is, that they would have to
"cross the rubicon"
and start confronting the crucial problem, themselves.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott and Carl, do you think that we
depend on the intelligence of
benign and thoughtful
elites such as represented by Bill Gates? Or can we "do the
job" just as well, beginning
with ourselves? -- And what kind of "hope" emanates from
the benign elites?
juttafranz: Or stop them to reproduce, make them infertile, across Microsoft devices?
jurgen784: I think glolbalization is involve each time more
than ever , that is why to
think globally and doing
locally ever think.
iiiiriiiis: Sorry my slowburn, I have to read back.... many
intersting comments I lost here,
continueth please.
juttafranz: Explain a bit more, Juergen.
juttafranz: Stella, hotburn, please!
juttafranz: Scotty, still around?
missnaranjahit: Schröder? Did the same thing that Däubler-Gmelin
reproached Bush:
talking about Irak to
take off from inner problems like unemployment etc. - nothing about
getting a pacifist.
nonpositivism: Jutta, even long-time veteran radicals like
Howard Zinn in the USA
who have few delusions
about how power works agree that without some middle
and upper class unity
of self-interest with those out of power, social change usually
fails. There is some
hope here because rational elites with some academic and
economic and social
power and influence are trying to curb the trend to collective
suicide. Whether they
gain enough power and influence to do so is the question.
juttafranz: Well, well, Stella!! You can do it excellently, if you want to!
carlzim: China is against depopulation. They know how to
profit from large populations.
They may influence Gates
to develop related software.
missnaranjahit: Franz!
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent observation, Iris. The system
itself creates illusion and
hope, and people fall
for it. The hope, that within the historic continuum of economic
exploitation, political
opression, social discrimination, human alienation and the
destruction of nature
there may be some "betterment", some "reform", some ----
"hope", the possibility
of hope and the hope of possibility. The latter two, however,
require at least an
"open system", and not one closed down on and in itself, one that
feeds on itself and
that destroys itself!
nonpositivism: Clearly the Bush Team in the White House
(as was Clinton/Gore, by the
way) is a clear victory
for Reaction and the path to collective suicide. However, it is not
the only significant
political and social force out there. One should not be unduly
pessimistic.
juttafranz: Scott: It would be the "best" for mankind, if
you are "right": There is some
hope here because rational
elites with some academic and economic and social power
and influence are trying
to curb the trend to collective suicide
juttafranz: This links up with my introduction.
jutta_schmitt2002: Most interesting, sharp observation, Stella!!
juttafranz: Download the latest version of Yahoo! Messenger at http://messenger.yahoo.com/
carlzim: In USA, unity of intellectual and manual workers
is needed for revolution, as in
Polan 1980's.
nonpositivism: Franz, I do now understand how the two lines
of analysis are connected,
but if you say they
are, that's good enough for me. 'Cause I respect subjective Reali-ty.
juttafranz: A straight question, Scott, no "5th's", in what
precisely do you see any hope
for mankind? For how
many decades, centuries, millennia?
nonpositivism: Correction:Franz, I do not understand how
the two lines of analysis are
connected, but if you
say they are, that's good enough for me. 'Cause I respect subjective
Reali-ty.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, on your remarks above: I "hope" you are right!
carlzim: Franz, China is key.
nonpositivism: Franz, I definitely think Humanity has a
long term chance for relatively
peaceful survival for
several centuries. But the biggest problem we face is sheer
overpopulation.
nonpositivism: The huge human population and its resource-exploitative
Technical
civilizations are exhausting
the biosphere at an alarming rate.
carlzim: So Putin and Bush Jr. are wooing Asia including North Korea.
juttafranz: I think that mankind has already enjoyed its
"hope" to the fullest, nothing left in
the Pandora Box anymore:
power, money, capital, profits, megalomania, blood-sucking,
whoring, etc.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - China practices birth control,
and - how could it be different?! -
males are preferred.
Females are killed or aborted. China's biggest problem: they have to
import females for reproduction
soon. Venezuela thus can extend its range of "non-traditional
exports" and start exporting
its Misses, and certainly will hit the market with products
secondary to none!
carlzim: Scott, overpopulation with wars, AIDS and HAARP-made natural disasters?
nonpositivism: Franz, perhaps you should put your "Hope"
in Cloning and reprogramming
of Human beings, particularly
human psychology. I cannot join you in such a paradigm,
however.
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm afraid none of the six billion will be living to see this day, Scott...
nonpositivism: Jutta, reading back your comments on international nuptials there, Jutta....
carlzim: Jutta, I'm referring to China in future.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - are you aware that the biggest
consumers, polluters and
threat to "sustainable
survival" happen to be a handful of post-industrialized countries
in the North, while
the vast majority of the remaining countries account for rather little
in this respect?
juttafranz: Scott, God created such an excellent "paragon
of animals", do you think
that a man-made monster
is still a human being, where his "soul" is genetically engineered?
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, Carl.
juttafranz: So, Scott, what is going to happen to 5 billion
workers out of work, will "Hope"
still work for them?
iiiiriiiis: Exactly so, Scott - overpopuation in the sense
that in the 21th century physical
labour force has become
obsolete, superfluous within the production process, the labour
process, and thus -
if Adam Smith asserted with his analyses on "demand and suply" -
will necessarily be
destroyed by the very politico-economic laws themselves.
juttafranz: Will they have a hopeful, human, humane, humanist future?
jutta_schmitt2002: ditto, Iris!
juttafranz: What will you do when 5 billion stampeding, hungry,
lean, dying masses
stand in front of the
walls of your "Home Land" soon?
carlzim: Jutta, agreed! Retail business is booming in Moscow,
and Russian banks'
loans for private apartments
and homes are increasing tremendously.
jutta_schmitt2002: Add bank loans for the future Misses, Carl.
juttafranz: What patriotic treatment will you give them, to hopefully remain "human"?
carlzim: China will feed them, Franz.
juttafranz: With rice, Carl?
juttafranz: Cloned rice?
carlzim: China will be leader of global economy.
carlzim: Rice, vegetables and some meat.
juttafranz: Well, it will have to be different; if not, in
a capitalist way, we'll be right
back to square One within
a decade again. And then, Carl?
nonpositivism: Iris, let's look at some history here.....what
you say was substantially true
decades ago when the
Earth had only 3 or 4 billion people. Now our population has
doubled. It could easily
double again. The "inevitable" self-destruction of billions you
speak of has *never*
occurred and is doubtful at best. Humanity is not about to wage
clean, selective Nuclear
or Biological or Eugenics wars against billions of its own people.
It's not inclined to
do so - at least, not yet. I agree that as Population grows, various
plateaus of Crisis for
Humanity and its position in the Biosphere will likely occur.
juttafranz: Who will feed the 3 billion Chinese?
carlzim: China is working with Germany to produce affordable
meals for themselves
and 3rd world.
juttafranz: See the flowers and birds of the air. Who feeds
them? How much more your
Heavenly Father would
feed 10 billion?
juttafranz: That's the hope that remains for mankind, Carl.
carlzim: Some will perish, and some will colonize outer space.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, again with regard to your answer
to Iris' comment above,
I truly wish you were
right in this sense.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, you sound so .... biblical.
juttafranz: "Affordable meals"? What nutrition, what content? For the "Last Supper", Carl?
carlzim: Nutrition via biotechnology, Franz.
juttafranz: The fittest will survive, the cloned ones, Carl.
They are now already colonizing
outer space.
nonpositivism: This all makes the doubtful assumption though
that even our present
consumption rate (with
ZERO population increase!) is sustainable for this planet. In my
view Mother Earth is
more likely to convulse and spew out the Human parasite than
Humanity is to willfully
or unwillfully purge itself.
jurgen784: That is right Franz the ractional elite must not
be confused by the other power
societies.
jutta_schmitt2002: For I have not cometh to bring peace,
but the sword, and fire - how
I wisheth it burnt already!
juttafranz: And homo sapiens sapiens, to whom you and I belong,
will be an unpleasant
memory of yestermillennium.
jutta_schmitt2002: If I were mother earth, I would certainly
have done that quite a while
ago, Scott, when the
first fumaroles of exhaust were emerging from the first chimneys
of London ....
iiiiriiiis: Scott, agreed, let's look at some history - how
should we understand then
what happens on the
African continent since decades for instance? People - that
is, portators of mainly
physical labour force - dying like flies day by day?
juttafranz: Apart from all these, you and I, homo sapiens
sapiens needs certain
conditions to survive
on earth, if we inform ourselves scientifically, these conditions
are dwindling, are being
extinguished. let's blow out the candle, Carl, whom we have
lit for "Hope".
nonpositivism: Haha, Jutta.....You can see the very beginnings
of the convulsion with
the Massive Habitat
and Species Loss we have suffered, Intense pollution and toxicity
of the biosphere, Global
Warming, Acid Rain. Even a conservative magazine like National
Geographic takes an
unflinching look at this in the current issue which I have in an article
"State of The Planet".
The patient is threatened...how will the host handle this aggressive,
overconsumptive species?
juttafranz: And, let the next generation take over, the autists, the God-Men, the Men-Gods!
juttafranz: Very simple, Scott: Operation successful! Patient stone-dead!
nonpositivism: Iris, what you say is true on one level.
Tens of millions infected or dying
from HIV or curable
global infectious diseases or poverty, etc. But the overall populations
in each Continent CONTINUE
TO CLIMB. With a much faster rate of increase for Southern
and Darker peoples.
This is indisputable.
jutta_schmitt2002: Host AND patient dead. Fullstop.
jutta_schmitt2002: And indisputable is, that the few "handful"
(in comparison) of inhabitants
of the North are the
biggest polluters of the earth, Scott.
nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz, I have a feeling the Planet
may be a bit more resilient
than Humanity. It's
been here 6 billion years and sustained life for 4 Billion. By comparision,
Humanity has been here
just a few short days.
juttafranz: And where did the HIV come from? Why now? What
is its relation to the poverty
reduction programme?
To biological and chemical warfare, iris & Scott?
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: And they ... screwed it all up in these
few couple of days, Scott
(pardon my French. Merci.)
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl.
juttafranz: And where did the HIV come from? Why now? What
is its relation to the
poverty reduction programme?
To biological and chemical warfare, iris & Scott?
carlzim: Thanks, Franz. I had to reboot.
missnaranjahit: Folks I have to sign off now. I saved the chat so far.
jutta_schmitt2002: Yahoo is instable today, Carl.
juttafranz: You saved all, Stella?
nonpositivism: Jutta, absolutely agreed to your comments
on Consumption and Pollution.
Furthermore, The Northern
wealthier nations thus far have shown no compunction in
terms of passing on
the costs including the environmental costs of their rape of this
Planet to those nations
and peoples who can least afford it. They still primarily (though
not exclusively) think
and act locally and selfishly.
juttafranz: If so, from here I take over, and will send the rest!
missnaranjahit: Yes Franz, I saved all, I was not offline.
juttafranz: Klasse!
juttafranz: You are a Pathfinder!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Steeellllaaaaa ---- I'm sorry to see
you leave! It's always nice to know
you're in the background,
ready to hit if necessary!
juttafranz: Stella, I think you should remain -- the only one that Yahoo loves!!
missnaranjahit: thanks - and gooooood night! See you! Bye!
jutta_schmitt2002: Yahoo always behaves nicely with Stella.
juttafranz: Bye! Stellalein!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye for today, Stella.
Yahoo! Messenger: missnaranjahit has left the conference.
juttafranz: Back to Scott -- awaiting some answers, that really are interesting.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, are you still there? What do you
think, who will "survive":
the host (mother earth)
or the parasite (homo sapiens parasitiensis), both or none?
carlzim: Thanks for joining, Stella. Bye.
nonpositivism: Folks, I must take leave to handle some business
stuff. I will leave
window open but will
probably not return for at least 40 minutes. Thanks to all.
juttafranz: Scott, that's not fair!!
nonpositivism: Franz, please restate your questions here
and I will specifically
address here or offline.
juttafranz: Cold-feet, in Florida???
carlzim: OK, Scott. Thank you.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for joining, Scott. Don't let philosophy interfere with business .....
juttafranz: Scott, later you read back, and answer offline, and I will repost them in the final m
iiiiriiiis: Franz, very simply put: On the relation of AIDS
to the poverty reduction
programme - that IS
part of the "fight" against "overpopulation", which by the way
always strongly reminds
me on a central point of Malthus' "Principle of Population"
- the so called positive
population checks like war for example, and AIDS falls exactly
in that realm.
jurgen784: Jutta ,that is rigth venezuela can export its
misses,and i m sure they would be
sold,but how venezuela
let without ist natural tradition don`t you think it can be extinged
earlier.
iiiiriiiis: Oh, Stella.... bye bye, talk to you tomorrow!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Scott, see you next Thursday!
juttafranz: Wow ... Venezuelan Misses for foreign exchange from China!
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen, I suppose the Misses would
protest loudly if the Venezuelans
decided to sell them
on the world market! They would cause a REAL revolution here. )
gocho24: Sorry for being silent again, guys... but believe
me, I've enjoyed your
conversation.
gocho24: Jutta: I think MEN would be protesting even more
loudly..... losing their
women to the chinese?
juttafranz: Well, well, Jesus -- silence is golden, Black Gold!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Venezuelan Missses united against human
trafficking! No to the
globalization of the
Miss business .... Jesús - bingo! I did not think about
this aspect of the matter.
gocho24: Next time, I'll participate more actively.... my
programming is keeping me a
bit busy.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús - don't worry. It is nice
to have you with us - no matter whether
low or high profile!
juttafranz: Fine, Jesus!!!
gocho24: It was nice to enjoy your company once again, friends.
jutta_schmitt2002: Same here, Jesús!
juttafranz: OK, Till next time!!!
gocho24: C ya!
iiiiriiiis: See you in our next chat, Jesús! Bye!
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has left the conference.
juttafranz: Thanks for being present -- your assistance is encouraging!
juttafranz: Jutta must reboot -- Yahoo booted her out.
carlzim: Thanks for joining, Jesus
juttafranz: Who are all still there?
carlzim: OK, Franz
juttafranz: IIIrriiis!
juttafranz: Still there?
jutta_schmitt2002: Oooooooopsssss
jutta_schmitt2002: got disconnected.
carlzim: Folks, after chat, visit this site for some material
on adaptation of Latin
American business to
globalization:
http://www.strategy-business.com/sbkw2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
strategy+business and
knowledge@wharton
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jutta_schmitt2002: Who is still here?
carlzim: Hi, Jutta.
juttafranz: OK, thanks, Carl.
juttafranz: Iris, you fell asleep?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, thanks for the url.
carlzim: Iris, Jurgen?
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen? Iris?
carlzim: The Changing Face of Strategic Alliances in Latin America
Strategic alliances are more important than ever for Latin
American
companies that wish
to grow and compete in a global marketplace. At the
same time, multinational
corporations from outside the region in search
of their own growth
opportunities continue to forge alliances and
acquire companies to
gain entry into Latin America and other parts of
the world.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Agatha Christie's "Ten little Negroes" is in full swing here ...
carlzim: Hi, Iris.
juttafranz: Hi! Iris!!!
carlzim: Latin America was a hotbed of alliance and merger
& acquisition activity
through the 1990s. Non-Latin
multinational ownership in the top 500
Latin American companies
grew from 25% of sales in 1991 to 38% in 1999,
as global MNCs pursued
alliances and aggressively acquired
privately-held local
companies and state-owned enterprises. Locally, the
pressure continues to
be intense on Latin American firms to consolidate
and to seek the best
possible alliance partners as an integral component
of their growth strategies.
iiiiriiiis: I "hope" you could save the chat - I lost everything
here, Yahoo has been
closed down completely!
carlzim: It is also true that alliances and acquisitions
remain difficult to
pull off; studies show that
about half of such partnerships
end in failure.
In Latin America, cross-border
and cultural
factors make it even
tougher to succeed.
Putting many costly
failures behind them,
companies are now becoming
more selective about
why, where, and with
whom they choose to
partner.
iiiiriiiis: Hi again!
carlzim: In the last two years, the pace of foreign MNC
M&A activity has
slowed in line with the cooling of the stock market.
But local activity,
mostly domestic consolidations, is accelerating. For
the next decade, alliances
and acquisitions will continue to be a
critical facet of competitive
strategy for Latin America, making it
imperative for companies
to devote more time and talent to shepherding
these relationships
every step of the way so that they have every
possible chance to succeed.
carlzim: Comments?
juttafranz: Hi! Jurgen!!!
carlzim: Hi, Jurgen.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, perhaps the Latin Americans should
have listened to Simon
Bolívar, who,
in his times actively propagated "La Gran Colombia" - the forerunner of
the United States of
Latin America, that nowadays do not have the slightest chance
of coming into being.
Bolívar was quite a future-oriented, anticipating figure!
juttafranz: Any special comment, Jurgen?
juttafranz: Any special question?
juttafranz: Any special contribution?
carlzim: Jutta, and Argentina could have been the Canada of Latin America
juttafranz: True, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: And Carl: The All American Free Trade
Association proposed for
2005 will be the "blow
of grace" for Latin American nations, as they are NOT
economically competitive
with the North Amercian corporations, that will
dominate that market
and sweep it clean from uncompetitive relicts.
carlzim: Jurgen, did you receive my request to add you to my Yahoo IM Friends list?
juttafranz: War on all levels: economic, political, military, weather, food, etc., Jutta.
iiiiriiiis: Very interesting information, Carl. I only have
another slight problem here,
not directly related
to the flow of the discussion - but can anybody explain to me,
please, what "culture",
and "cultural factors" are supposed to denote? I simply
don't understand the
meaning of the term.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis
has joined the conference.
iiiiriiiis: Back.
carlzim: Jutta, will strategic alliances of Latin American
corporations with multinationals
help them?
jutta_schmitt2002: True, Franz. "Human life" has turned
into the neverending war -
low or high intensity,
but WAR.
carlzim: Hi. Iris.
jutta_schmitt2002: Strategic Alliances of Latin Amercian
corporations with
multinationals will
help a few of the Latin American economic elite, Carl,
but not the vast majority
of people living on this continent.
juttafranz: Hi! Iris! I told our "guardian angel" to stay!
Now only Carl's "Blue Angel"
can keep us on Yahoo!
carlzim: Jurgen, do you read me?
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen, are you still present?
carlzim: I understand, Jutta.
iiiiriiiis: Franz, please invite Carl!
jutta_schmitt2002: CARL OVERBOARD
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
iiiiriiiis: Welcome back, Carl!
juttafranz: Hi, Carl!! Jurgen, what is happening with the
low intensity warfare in Chao,
today? Anything new?
carlzim: Thanks, Franz.
jurgen784: I still around.
juttafranz: Have you seen the news today already?
iiiiriiiis: No, I haven't.
carlzim: What's in the news, Franz?
juttafranz: The opposition launched an aggressive campaign today again.
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back, Carl. -- I was about to
comment, that the very nature
of global profit production
creates immense accumulation of wealth in the hands of a
small economic elite,
and immense accumulation of misery on the backs of a vast
majority of doomed "sellers
of their labour force".
jutta_schmitt2002: IRIS OVERBOARD
carlzim: Yep, Jutta
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, it is CHUAO
juttafranz: OK!
carlzim: Which opposition, Franz?
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
FADING OUT
carlzim: Wilkommen, Iris.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis
has left the conference.
juttafranz: OK! There
she is again!!
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis
has joined the conference.
iiiiriiiis: Thanks,
Carl. Something "in the bush" with Yahoo today...
juttafranz: Folks, that's
enough for today!
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002
has joined the conference.
carlzim: OK, Franz.
juttafranz: A bit exhausted,
as a result of a heavy day's "work".
jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry
guys, got kicked out.
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris
overboard.
juttafranz: Who wants
to introduce next week's chat? You Juergen?
juttafranz: Select any
theme, please.
carlzim: Fun chat! Fran
sends her regards to all.
jutta_schmitt2002: Send
our best regards to Fran, Carl. Thanks for joining.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis
has joined the conference.
juttafranz: The topic,
please
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome
back Iris.
juttafranz: Anybody
has a topic for next time?
iiiiriiiis: Thanks,
Jutta.
carlzim: Suggestion:
Elections in Germany and future implications.
juttafranz: But who?
jutta_schmitt2002: Sound
good, Carl.
juttafranz: Who will
oblige?
jutta_schmitt2002: See
what we can prepare - everybody a piece, I suggest.
juttafranz: Not my field,
I'm just a German h.c.
iiiiriiiis: Elections
= "declaratory" decision making.
carlzim: For Germany,
Europe and world.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl,
shall we all prepare a short introduction and later discuss
combined?
carlzim: Yes, Jutta.
juttafranz: Well, I
leave the topic to Iris, carl & Jutta.
juttafranz: Is that
OK with you all?
jutta_schmitt2002: Exellent.
Count me in.
carlzim: OK, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent
--- sticky keyboard.
juttafranz: Iris?
iiiiriiiis: Ja, Franz...?
juttafranz: OK, with
you? Too?
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris,
do you think you can prepare just two paragraphs or three, and
do the introduction
together with Carl and me?
juttafranz: Well, that's
what I call a Crew!!!
juttafranz: Greetings
to all, especially to Fran, Carl.
juttafranz: Even eight
would do, Iris!
iiiiriiiis: Let me see,
Jutta. Franz! I'm already Comparative Govenment Challenged!
jutta_schmitt2002: I
know, Iris. Okay, anyhow, Carl and I will be on the front.
iiiiriiiis: And I can
see you smiling now from here!!!
juttafranz: And iris
in the back seat!!
iiiiriiiis: I'll see
what I can do, Jutta. Okay.
Saying: Bye!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Alright friends, excellent chat, and
see you all next Thursday the latest.
juttafranz: Bye!! Folks!!!
iiiiriiiis: Im Schleudersitz
)))
juttafranz: ]Bye Juergen!!
juttafranz: Thanks for
coming, see you next time!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye
all (Iris! )
jutta_schmitt2002: Take
care all. Don't let "the opposition" get you ....
iiiiriiiis: Alright,
bye bye Carl, Juergen, Jutta and Franz! Great chat! See you!
juttafranz: bye!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye
Carl, Franz, Iris and Jürgen (he fell offline). Until next time.
juttafranz: Bye!!
iiiiriiiis: Until next
time! Bye!!
ADDENDUM:
nonpositivism:
Franz, what were all those things you wanted to discuss with me Thursday
but were afraid to ask?
juttafranz: In fact, indirectly, you did touch on the essence of my basic
questions already -- rather, you should give us your views concerning the
"Hope" syndrome: When Hope becomes necessary? When is it simply redundant,
and does not appear on the agenda? Why the "poor" hope, and the "wealthy"
dope themselves? What the Pope and Bob Hope have in common? Why "people"
just cannot "take it" anymore, why they swerve away from brutal reality,
placing their heads in the radio-acrive sands? And, finally, why they are
afraid of the changing, flowing truth, to be informed about the flowing,
changing brutal truths of courrent global, fascist realities, and why they
prefer to disappear from our lists, from our forums, and "to talk about more
pleasant things" instead?
juttafranz: Also, I would sincerely value your opinion about my explanation
of how to treat those who say good-bye -- not to attack, not to scorn them,
rather to congratulate them that they came along with us for a moment,
for a while. And that this could happen at all, is still a very pleasant,
courageous, "miracle" these days! Many do not think like that about "renegades"
and "traitors" to the human "cause".
juttafranz: Scott, I am not "afraid" of anybody, of anything, except myself;
I'm afraid that I might be "right" -- that would be the worst for humanity
-- rather, I pray every day that I would be "wrong" -- the utmost "best"
for humanity; and, if by any chance I ever should be "wrong", I would be
the very first one to celebrate the victory of the "Crown of Creation", to
open the chanpaign bottle, and to acknowledge my scientific and philosophic
errors.
nonpositivism: I take it that is the "Lee Manifesto",
2002 Edition. May be it be scrupulously studied and pondered by all!
nonpositivism: Of course Franz you must have some hope. Else you would
have "checked out" from this Earth a long time ago instead of working very
hard as Professor and activist.
juttafranz: Scott, this what you say is already "materialized" Hope, hence,
it is no Hope anymore; Hope lives in the "future", it can never be reached;
furthermore, who scientifically-philosophically, praxically-theoretically,
is beautiful, truthful and lovingly (Loving Lee) does not need "Hope" anymore,
(s)he is already the Fire of Hope, is Hope itself, any second, any millimetre,
anywhere, anyhow, anywhither!
nonpositivism: Franz, maybe you should bring Jutta on so she can translate
your English into the vernacular. It's good poetry, but I don't understand
it.
juttafranz: OK!
jutta: If the going gets tough, the tough (= Jutta) get going ....
My translation for you: Being an emancipatory
activist is equivalent to "materializing hope". The concept of hope generally
accounts for some kind of "optimistic projection" into the future, and
may well be accompanied by inactivity (the waiting for "better times").
Conscious thought AND action in the "ever-here" and "every-now" is the
bringing back of hope from the realm of projection to the realm of concrete
thought AND action (= the realization or "materialization" of hope). I
"hope" this picture has become a little clearer for you now.
nonpositivism: Yes, much!
jutta: Wow.
jutta: I feel I have got sort of a "wooden head" tonight, and find I'm
having difficulties to think and write. And here you go and tell me I have
been able to make you understand the concept of hope and its implications
.... Imagine the sharpness of my thought and the capacity of explanation
when I've got a clear head .... ))
nonpositivism: Haha, yes!
jutta: Anyhow, Scottie .... "good night" for tonight. And thanks for your
mails - I read the one about the multi-level magician's tricks - technique
employed to pull through sort of a "kill democracy now - agenda". Very
interesting viewpoint, indeed. Here is Franz once more to bid farewell
to you. Bye for now. Yours sincerely ----> Jutta, the hopeless case
....
nonpositivism: I just sent you some interesting nocturnal speculation
of my own.
nonpositivism: Check your email. I just woke up from a nap, have some
creative but slightly unfocused thoughts.
nonpositivism: But I thought they were worth capturing. This is my current
take of why Empires do what they do.
juttafranz: OK, briefly, Frankenstein's Monster is back.
juttafranz: Did she explain it better?
nonpositivism: who are you? Jutta, Franz or the twoheaded
monster?
nonpositivism: Put diplomatically: Jutta's explanation was superior prose,
Franz's is superior poetry. Together they flow like fine wine.
juttafranz: Anyhow, for anything to come into being, certain objective,
subjective and transjective factors or conditions have to be "present",
else, you cannot bake a cake, eat it, and then still want to have it.
nonpositivism: That's Franz!
nonpositivism: The endearing Metaphorical Poetic Visionary of the Andes
Mountains.
juttafranz: The desperate, maimed, physically and mentally challenged,
the wretched of the earth, "les miserables", urgently need "hope".
nonpositivism: The crusading revolutionary at University
and in cyber-space.
juttafranz: Generally their "hope" is being realized, "materialized" by
charity, by Bill Gates' US$15 billion.
nonpositivism: The "hope" that you despise is unfortunately heavily enmeshed
in Catholicism and its long-standing political position and philosophy
for those finding themselves at the bottom of things.
juttafranz: In fact, if you have knowledge, human power, science, philosophy,
at your disposal, then you could "hope" for realizable things, not indulge
in wishful thinking, pipe-dreams, then you do the thing, think the think,
and improve, transcend the think-thing -- no hope necessary. The gods help
those who help themselves; the rest, who hope, the gods love, they die young,
like Che.
nonpositivism: again, see my remarks about hope again. You can bring Jutta
in to translate this:
nonpositivism: There are 2 kinds of hope:
nonpositivism: Passive hope (Catholicism, wait till Heaven, the Afterlife,
etc.) and Active Hope: engagement in ther here and now.
nonpositivism: You trust active Hope more than passive Hope. In that
we concur.
juttafranz: Yes, Scott, in Arch-Bishop (of Canterbury) Kingsley's "opium
of the people" -- Marx just "plagiarized" him -- you have the three gifts
of the Holy Ghost: Faith, Hope and Charity. Hope is basically a feudalist,
absolutist Roman Catholic concept, used in the Middle Ages to bamboozle the
poor dregs, the "witches", the forerunners of the current US "bitches" and
"sons-of-a-bitch" of society. It is a mythological, religious, ideological
"newspeak" mechanism, to keep the "hopes" of the poor high: We return slaughtered
on the "Thousand Years' " battle-field, but we still "hope" that our grandchildren
will deliver better cannon-fodder! After Vietnam, now Afghanistan and Iraq
have their hope-ful turn!
nonpositivism: That sounds like the speaker has morphed back into Jutta
again. This is getting hard to follow....
juttafranz: It is what ruling class divinity has left in the Pandora Jewellery
Box for the Poor, while the wealthy pillaged all the gold, diamonds and
"black gold".
juttafranz: No, Scott, it's still me, His Truly Himself!!
nonpositivism: Well, like any good marriage there's a good interspousal
influence, haha. So sometimes it's hard to tell you apart.
nonpositivism: Under Protestantism things changed. Weber's famous book,
"The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism" caught a glimpse of some
of this.
juttafranz: Well, Love and Marriage go together like a .... You can't
have one, you cant have none, you can't have one without the other -- hence,
it is the very same one, the two, speaking simultaneously!
nonpositivism: It's also significant that the USA Founders were primarily
influenced by non-Catholic Churches, such as Quaker Movement, Puritanism,
Baptism, etc. These formulate different "rules of engagement" for the individual
in dealing with reality.
nonpositivism: The Jewish Philosophy is also completely different and
bears more similarity to the latter. It allowed the Jews to rebuild our State
in 1948 without waiting for history to do it for us.
nonpositivism: Man accepted the responsibility for executing and implementing
what he comprehended to be G-d's vision, not wait for a singular divine
act.
nonpositivism: A bit harder to penetrate are Eastern religious philosophies,
which have their roots in Lao-Tze and Confucius.
nonpositivism: One core difference is that they are much less oriented
to fulfillment of individual potentiality, much more oriented to the Family,
and Society as a Family.
nonpositivism: This can even be seen in the readers given to 6 year olds,
and how schoolchildren are taught to follow instructions, ask questions,
compete or cooperate or not cooperate with each other, etc.
nonpositivism: These various "philosophies of Engagement", active and
passive in different ways and different degrees, have huge fundamental implications
for how we act every day, personally and politically.
juttafranz: D'accord, Scott! In this sense, the true Americans were really
"hope-less"!
juttafranz: Scott, the general trick is that I write "blood-red", and Jutta "rosy"
-- more pink! In my PC, we, our colours, somehow got mixed up tonight!
nonpositivism: Haha, very well put, Franz.
nonpositivism: The morphing of colors mirrors the morphing of your voices.....
juttafranz: Scott, we are dead-tired -- must go and sleep urgently.
nonpositivism: and bodies and souls, apparently very tired bodies at this
point.
juttafranz: It was a great pleasure to exchange some active hopeties!
"Good"-Night, Scott. Greetings from Jutta too. Bye!!!
nonpositivism: OK, for creative intellectual challenge check the email
I sent you tomorrow. It has some fundamental thoughts to understanding the
American Empire, indeed all Empires.
nonpositivism: Buenas Noches!
You see, I can't even type anymore. Bye!!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has logged out. (28/09/02 at 09:01 p.m.)
