The Global Aftermath of the German Elections
(Inedited, Raw Version)
Carl, Scott, Iris, Stella, Franz,
Jutta, Jesus
October 3, 2002
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nonpositivism: good afternoon, friends
carlzim: Hi, folks
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello - Stella, Scott, Carl,
Franz.
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jutta_schmitt2002: Hi Iris.
naranjahit2002: Molo! Franz, Jutta Iris, Carl,
Scott.
iiiiriiiis: Molo, Stella
iiiiriiiis: Hi all!
naranjahit2002: Kunjani?
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, break your silence
- is this Xhosa?
juttafranz: Welcome, folks! Ka kuhle! Fine. Stella!
jutta_schmitt2002: Xhosa for Nxele's?
naranjahit2002: Yes hahahahaha how are you! )))))
naranjahit2002: This website is funny!
jutta_schmitt2002: Molo nkele, Stella - I'm lefthanded!
juttafranz: Today it is: Deutschland Ueber Alles!
Stella: nxele!
jutta_schmitt2002: Translate that into Xhosa,
Franz!
jutta_schmitt2002: But wait - let us invite Jesús,
please.
juttafranz: In this order: Carl, Iris, Jutta:
you will introduce us to the Fourth Reich!
juttafranz: Invite everybody else that is not
yet onboard, please!!
jutta_schmitt2002: I invited Jesús - no
reaction as yet.
carlzim: OK. Franz.
The Introduction
carlzim: Folks, you may recall in last Thursday's
chat, I said that I will introduce a discussion
of the recent elections in Germany, and its implications
for the direction of
globalization. I will do this by posting excerpts
from DW-World. De, then compare the
present situation with Trotsky's article on Germany
in 1932.
Since this is rather long, please be patient. Thanks.
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has left the conference.
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gocho24: Hi!
carlzim: Hi, Jesus
carlzim: Folks, you may recall in last Thursday's
chat, I said that I will introduce a discussion
of the recent elections in Germany, and its implications
for the direction of
globalization. I will do this by posting excerpts
from DW-World. De, then compare the
present situation with Trotsky's article on Germany
in 1932.
Since this is rather long, please be patient. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Jesús. --- Exellent
proposition, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ready, Carl.
juttafranz: Gocho offboard!!!
naranjahit2002: Interesting Carl.
carlzim: Regarding the 2002 elections, IMHO, these
provided some safeguards against Fascism
through the winning alliance of a variety of 3rd
parties, and a balanced position that
rejected excluded joining Bush Jr. in war vs.
Iraq, and nopt taking sides in the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
http://dw-world.de/english/0,3367,6591_A_642283_1_A,00.html
Election Outcome Hinged on Third Parties
carlzim: Joschka Fischer's unexpected
success Sunday helped secure a
second government term for
Chancellor Gerhard Schröde
The Social Democrats and the Christian Democratic
Union
may be Germany's most powerful parties, but it
was the
smaller parties that played the decisive role
in Sunday's
election.
jutta_schmitt2002: exactly, Carl. go ahead.
carlzim: Joschka Fischer had good reason to gleam
on Monday. His
party had set out to get a modest 8 percent of
the vote, but
even that seemed ambitious considering the Greens
were
hovering at around 5 percent in several polls
only a few
months ago.
juttafranz: Fascinating!!!
gocho24: How are you guys doing?
carlzim:
The dismal performance of the liberal Free Democrats
and
the defection of supporters of East Germany's
former
communist party to the Social Democrats and Greens
ultimately secured a second term for Chancellor
Gerhard
Schröder's government.
juttafranz: Excellent, Gocho, please read back!
jutta_schmitt2002: Fine, Jesús.
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carlzim:
"Many considered it unrealistic, but our goal
was to achieve
over eight percent ... and we've certainly managed
that,"
German Foreign Minister and leading Greens candidate
Fischer said as results showed his party would
win 8.6 percent
of the seats in the Bundestag, Germany's parliament.
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carlzim:
Analysts attributed the party's success to Fischer,
Germany's
most-popular politician, the party's swift and
effective
response to severe flooding in Eastern Germany
in July and
its stance against a U.S.-led military invasion
of Iraq. Both of
the latter issues helped the Greens and Social
Democrats win
the support of dovish voters who otherwise might
have
turned to the Party of Democratic Socialism.
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carlzim: For the first time ever, the Greens tied
their campaign to a
single candidate -- Joschka Fischer, the wildly
popular
politician who enjoys a popularity rating of 81
percent. The
German polling firm Wahlen attributed the Greens'
gains to
the Fischer-focused campaign.
A dark day for liberals, former communists
carlzim:
There were no cheers to be heard at the campaign
headquarters of the Free Democrats and the Party
of
Democratic Socialism on Monday.
jutta_schmitt2002: Definitely no cheers for the
FDP, Carl.
carlzim: The party had been badly damaged by anti-Israeli
comments and a vicious personal attack on the
head of
Germany's most-influential Jewish organization
made by the
party's deputy chairman, Jürgen Möllemann.
Möllemann, who
is also the party's state leader in North Rhine-Westphalia,
accused Michel Friedman, vice president of the
Central
Council of Jews in Germany, of fueling anti-Semitism
with his
"intolerant, hateful style" last May.
juttafranz: Carl, but Fischer also comes from
that "brand" -- "former leftists".
carlzim: His spiteful words angered many Germans,
drew undesirable
international criticism and led the party to fall
in popularity
polls. Möllemann stunned Germans again last
week when he
sent a campaign mailing to voters in North Rhine-Westphalia
critical of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
and Friedman.
Senior party leaders distanced themselves from
Möllemann
and on Sunday demanded his resignation, which
he tendered
a day later.
carlzim: Franz, however, IMHO resists Fascism
iiiiriiiis: I am reading....following, contiune
please, Carl...
carlzim: Support for the PDS dropped sharply in
the eastern states, it'
s traditional stronghold. In 1998, the party secured
21.6
percent of eastern Germans' votes, but this year
support fell
to 16.9 percent.
juttafranz: D'accord, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Carl.
carlzim:
Two PDS members did win seats in the Bundestag
through
direct mandates, but their powers will be limited.
As
members of parliament of a party that is not officially
represented, neither Petra Pau, who is currently
the PDS's
deputy chairwoman, nor Gersine Lötzsch will
have the ability
to submit legislation, to introduce issues for
debate on the
floor or to vote on drafts of legislation when
they are still at
committee level. In other words, they will have
literally no
chance of putting their fingerprints on the laws
passed during
the Bundestag's next legislative period.
carlzim:
Now I'll move on to Trotsky's article. OK?
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent, Carl. Please proceed.
naranjahit2002: Go ahead Carl.
juttafranz: Now, it gets interesting, Carl.
carlzim: chapter 5 from Leon Trotsky's pamphlet
"FASCISM -- What It Is and How To Fight It"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://eserver.org/history/fighting-fascism/ch05-German.Cops.and.Army.txt
THE GERMAN COPS AND ARMY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From _What Next? Vital Question for the
German Proletariat_, 1932
carlzim: In case of actual danger, the social
democracy banks not on the "Iron
Front" but on the Prussian police. It is reckoning
without its host!
The fact that the police was originally recruited
in large numbers from
among social-democratic workers is absolutely
meaningless.
Consciousness is determined by environment even
in this instance. The
worker who becomes a policeman in the service
of the capitalist state,
is a bourgeois cop, not a worker.
juttafranz: Wow! That's emancipatory archaeology,
Carl!
carlzim:
Of late years, these policemen have
had to do much more fighting with revolutionary
workers than with Nazi
students. Such training does not fail to leave
its effects. And above
all: every policeman knows that though governments
may change, the
police remains.
carlzim: [NOTE: "The Iron Front": A bloc between
several big trade unions and
bourgeois "republican" groups with little or no
following or
prestige among the masses. It was created by the
social
democrats toward the end of 1931. Combat groups
called the Iron
Fist were set up within the unions, and workers'
sports
organizations were brought into the Iron Front.
carlzim:
However, its
first parades and rallies, at which thousands
of workers raised
their fists, shouted "Freedom", and swore to defend
democracy.
The masses in the Social Democratic Party and
unions really
believed that this organization would be used
to stop Hitler. It
was not.]
carlzim:
In its New Year's issue, the theoretical organ
of the social democracy,
_Dar Freie Wort_ (what a wretched sheet!), prints
an article in which
the policy of "toleration" is expounded in its
highest sense. Hitler,
it appears, can never come to power against the
police and the
Reichswehr [German army]. Now, according to the
constitution, the
Reichswehr is under the command of the president
of the Republic.
carlzim: Therefore fascism, it follows, is not
dangerous so long as a president
faithful to the constitution remains at the head
of the government.
Bruening's regime must be supported until the
presidential elections so
that a constitutional president may then be elected,
through an alliance
with the parliamentary bourgeoisie; and thereby
Hitler's road to power
will be blocked for another seven years....
juttafranz: Proceed, Carl.
carlzim: [NOTE: Heinrich Bruening was chancellor
from 1930-32. Regular
parliamentary government in Germany ended in March
1930. There
followed a series of Bonapartist regimes -- Bruening,
von Papen,
von Schleicher, i.e., chancellors ruling not by
ordinary
parliamentary procedures but by "emergency" decrees.
carlzim: These Bonapartist figures presented themselves
as political
saviors needed to get the country through its
crisis, and thus as
above class and party. They depended not on the
old bourgeois
democratic party system but on their command of
the police, army,
and government bureaucracy.
carlzim: Pretending to be saving the nation
from the dangers on both the left (socialists
and communists) and
the right (fascists), they struck their heaviest
blows against
the left, since their primary interest was saving
capitalism.]
carlzim: The politicians of reformism, these dexterous
wire-pullers, artful
intriguers and careerists, expert parliamentary
and ministerial
machinators, are no sooner thrown out of their
habitual sphere by the
course of events, no sooner are the placed face
to face with momentous
contingencies than they reveal themselves to be
-- there is no milder
expression for it -- inept bodies.
carlzim: To rely upon a president is only to rely
upon "the government"! Faced
with the impending clash between the proletariat
and the fascist petty
bourgeoisie -- two camps which together comprise
the crushing majority
of the German nation -- these Marxists from the
_Vorwaerts_ [principal
social-democratic newspaper] yelp for the nightwatchman
to come to their
aid, "Help! Government, exert pressure!" (_Staat,
greif zu!_)
carlzim: That's it, folks. What are the political
differences between Germany today and 1932? Any similarities? Please comment.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for an excellent introduction,
Carl.
juttafranz: Well put, "these dexterous wire-pullers,
artful intriguers and careerists, expert parliamentary and ministerialmachinators";
we have a lot of them these days!
nonpositivism: very interesting stuff, Carl.
carlzim: Glad you liked it
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Carl - most interesting, later
on I will have to read rapidly back on some paragraphs.
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris, have you got some observations
or comments on the German Elections?
juttafranz: Excellent, Carl! Carl for Permanent
President of the World Revolution!
naranjahit2002: Thanks for the intro Carl.
juttafranz: Iris, it is your turn now.
jutta_schmitt2002: (I have been proposing that
for long, Franz. )
carlzim: Thanks, all
juttafranz: How about some ideas of Rosa Lexemburg
or Clara Zethkin?
carlzim: or Madame Kallontai?
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, let us first see, if
Iris has some comments / observations on the German Election outcome.
juttafranz: Even Natascha, Krupskaya, Ulrike Meinhof,
would also do, Iris!
iiiiriiiis: Yes, I have some, unless I almost
decided to sneak out the backdoor...applying a comment of Marx, stating
in analogy to his Preface to the Critique on Political Economy, that my
studies so far don't allow me to voice any comment on the German Elections....
jutta_schmitt2002: Yes they do, Iris! Come on,
don't be shy.
juttafranz: No, continue, Sweetie!!! Hic rhodus,
hic salta, Here is the Rose, Dance, Iris!!
iiiiriiiis: Anyway, I have to appeal to your patience,
I have prepared some comment and will paste them now...
jutta_schmitt2002: Voilá!
naranjahit2002: KLasse!
juttafranz: Infinite patience, Iris, proceed ....
iiiiriiiis: I have no "direct" comments on outcome
of the elections, but was rather trying to locate my thoughts on our today's
topic - the discussion on the German Elections - against the background
and in terms of our discussions on the current changes manifesting itself
"within" the Labour Process, the politico-economic-social organization of
material production and reproduction which is shifting from the predominant
exploitation of physical labour force and natural resources to the predominant
exploitation of intellectual labour force and social resources.
carlzim: Proceed, Iris
jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent frame, Iris.
juttafranz: That's the "spirit", Iris.
carlzim: Excellent, Iris
iiiiriiiis: We have discussed these tendencies,
which form the read thread of all out latest discussions and chats - a change
which is even detected by the "upper echelons" - for example Jorgen Orstrom
Moller (Royal Danish Embassy, Singapore) :"Towards Globalism: Social Causes
and Social Consequences"; in: The Creative Society of the 21st Century. OECD
2000, pp. 113-131) comments that relation as follows:
juttafranz: Carl, or Iris, I know you love the
colour of the "angels" blue, one of you choose another colour, please -- e.g.,
brown!
iiiiriiiis: "Industrial technology is being replaced
by new technology based on information and biotechnology. Generation of
power is of no interest. Now, it is about creation, dissemination and controlling
information and bioengineering, processes which the industrial mind is unable
to grasp [emphasis added]." (p.116)
juttafranz: Be more lilac, Iris!
jutta_schmitt2002: (Franz, let's not get mixed
up with colours, please. Everybody stick to their colours.)
jutta_schmitt2002: Most interesting, Iris!
juttafranz: OK! It was just for me to "differentiate"
and "see" better, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please continue, Iris.
juttafranz: Proceed ....
carlzim: Iris, excellent!.. Moreover, in both
the USA and Germany, the executive branch of Government (President; Chancellor)
will dominate over parliamentary legislature. In USA to promote Fascism,
and in Germany to resist it.
iiiiriiiis: In other words, Moller is pointing
to the fact we are always trying to stress, that we would have to be very
careful with term, suppositions and supposed "evident" meanings of terms -
i.e., within the framework of our discussion, several difficulties with regard
to some supposedly "evident" crucial terms come up - as for example ("Volkssouveränität")
"souvereignity" which is supposedly transmitted via free, equal, direct elections
to the elected national government, representing the general will of its
electorate. The same is certainly valid to terms like "nation", "national
government", who should be carefully reviewed in this context, too.
juttafranz: Really interesting, verifying things
that we said in previous chats.
carlzim: In USA, to control-In Germany, to understand
iiiiriiiis: Moller continues: "During the industrial
period the political and economic infrastructure was,
broadly speaking, confined to the nation state.
[...] As the generation of
wealth and the distribution of wealth are transferred
from the national to the
international scene, the same is happening for
the political and economic
infrastructure, which now has the control of this
political game as its
objective." And he goes further:
jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Iris. We have to
carefully examine the terms we come across.
carlzim: Iris, and alienation?
juttafranz: You may add" "national interests",
"geopolitical interests", "defence of the homeland", etc.
jutta_schmitt2002: (Correction: generation of
wealth and distribution of misery!)
iiiiriiiis: "The machinery to deal with social
problems and social structures in our societies is becoming devoid of substance
as long it operates on the national level. It has to follow suit and jump
from the national to the
international arena. [...] The nation states are
performing the dying swan - sometimes with little grace, but no other role
is available in the script of history." (p. 117)
carlzim: Folks, a man just fired 6 shouts outside
UN bui;ding in NYC. No one hurt.
carlzim: 6 shots
juttafranz: He must be saluting our excellent
chat in process, in procedure.
nonpositivism: one thing there I do not understand,
Iris. "Generation of power is of no interest". Political power? Industrial
Power/Energy? In either case, this is obviously wrong. For example, Fossil
Fuel or Nuclear based energy still counts enormously, even overwhelmingly
in this age. Far more than Bioengineering, Genetically modified crops, etc.
iiiiriiiis: Agreed, Jutta - my problem here was
that I could not elaborate on the several shortcomings of his article, I
was simply trying to put emphasis on our arguments. Continuing...
carlzim: In Maryland, 5 people randomly killed
iiiiriiiis: Scott, I will try to get back to your
question later on, sorry, but this multiple tasking is not my strength (as
yet ...)
carlzim: Scott, IMHO, Iris refers to the future
juttafranz: Socio-Politico-Econo-Military Power,
Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, Iris. Proceed.
iiiiriiiis: Actually, Carl, I'm referring to the
PRESENT. Continuing: Following Moller it would seem that the structure and
function of national governments are of a kind that they neither do function
politically, now economically, nor socially anymore, nor are their structures
of a kind that in the final analyses they would have a say in the famous
"decision making process" on national issues:
juttafranz: In other words, Globalized, Corporate
Power, Scott.
iiiiriiiis: "The international institutions become,
one could say, the decision maker
of last resort. This is where the broad framework
is being laid down for the
economic, cultural and social evolution inside
as well as outside the nation
states. Those who want to influence these rules
governing our societies have
to bypass the nation state and operate with the
international institutions. The
most striking example is that international courts
of justice can force nation
states to abandon national legislation if it goes
against their international
obligations." (p.118)
iiiiriiiis: So, in short, my problem with the
German and other elections can be summed up roughly in Mollers words as
follows:
iiiiriiiis: "The secluded nation state is on its
way out. That also means that the nation
state as a political infrastructure is dead and
buried." (p.116)
juttafranz: Proceed, Iris, This is a modern Agatha
Christie globalized tragicomedy.
iiiiriiiis: In this hindsight, National Elections
are sort of "declaratory" decision making - decisions that look nice on paper
but that have no impact."
juttafranz: Is that the "gist" of the previous
German elections, even the patrix of Bush's electoral victory, Iris?
carlzim: Iris, I think the stuff on paper reflects
the wishes of the common folk. t gives them a platform to organize and resist
carlzim: Globalization is spread too thin
juttafranz: And, what about the French and Dutch
European elections, how do they fit into this brilliant exegesis?
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm not quite that convinced,
however, that the Nation State is "on its way out", Iris. I think it depends
which Nation State we are speaking about. There are Nation States, that certainly
do not posess a minimum of decent sovereignty anymore (that is, if they ever
posessed it), and there are others on the international scenery, that do
take all the sovereignty they deem necessary in order to "protect their vital
interests". Not so?
juttafranz: Concerning that, Jutta, "the Nation
State is "on its way out"", it depends how we see the "State", as a political-geographic
entity, or as an "Inter-Nation State", ...
nonpositivism: I would have to agree with Jutta.
The nation-state has lost ground somewhat, but we are still organized regionally
and territorially, governing our populations, handling disputes, trade etc.
between the boundaries of Nation-states. Some of these nation-states have
propped up "International" entities such as the WTO which exploit some nation-States
for the benefit of others.
jutta_schmitt2002: The question is: do we have
two kinds of nation states? The "Herren- Nation States" and the Fake Nation
States, where the former set the rules for the latter?
iiiiriiiis: So far my comments, which have been
inspired in the first place by our chats - as for example the chat of 29th
August, 2002 on: Constitutions, Laws, their Essence and Applicability: USA,
Russia, Venezuela where you touched the indicated aspects alredy; also a
chat of July 08th 01 on the New Global State and its Functions and on July
10th 01 on Evolution & Revolution. Analysis of the Labour Process: Quo
Vadis? just to name a few which are certainly worth being revisited again.
Central analytical problems have been treated there, which however I unfortunately
could not resume here due to lack of time.
concepts Change and Movement for systemic labour
developments in the Patria
naranjahit2002: Interesting comments Iris.
nonpositivism: Transnational capital wants no
boundaries, but as powerful as it is even it often runs into local (nation-state)
problems, governments, disputes, etc. that must be mediated or resolved
at the nation-state level, by mediation or by force.
gocho24: "One planet, under the almighty dollar
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined
the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please repost for me, folks.
Sorry, YM got stuck.
nonpositivism: Trade Agreements, attempts to extend
them, etc. definitely pursue the agenda of minimizing these Nation-State
intrusions so that the "Free Market" can operate with as little resistance
as possible. But the Nation-State is still formidable. For example, can anyone
doubt that China constitutes a Nation-state, perceives itself as such, and
operates as such?
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Scott. --- Did you
folks get my remark on nation states after Iris finished her introduction?
juttafranz: Transnational Capital is the expression
of a Transnational State, and that is what "Corporate America" is all about,
versus the "European Inter-Nation State", Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: And I added: jutta_schmitt2002:
The question is: do we have two kinds of nation states? The "Herren- Nation
States" and the Fake Nation States, where the former set the rules for the
latter?
iiiiriiiis: Agreed to your comment above, Jutta,
however, the classical Nation State is "on its way out" in the sense Carl
put it so concise and poetically in the above mentioned chat (10.07.01):
"Gates, the new Che. Don't cry for me, Windows XP!" Agreed, Franz!
naranjahit2002: Yes Jutta got it.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks.
nonpositivism: [Yes Jutta we all did....Franz,
I do no understand that distinction. Hopefully you can elaborate] Germany
is a nation-state as well. The Elections there may have more significance
than Iris's analysis suggests. The significance is usually proportionate to
the power that nation-state wields internationally.
jutta_schmitt2002: And that is the economic, financial
and military power of its internationally operating corporations, Scott.
nonpositivism: Yes Jutta which are often interlocked
internationally but not always the case. For example, look at Japan's Corporations
which are run by a few families in some cases. Some German companies remain
strongly tied to a German national interest, as are some American companies
tied to the USA, French co's to France, etc. Example:
jutta_schmitt2002: Fighting wars is about securing
vital economic and energetic and geostrategic interests, securing market
access and preferably market dominance.
jutta_schmitt2002: Correct, Scott.
nonpositivism: Europe has basically banned Genetically
Modified Foods. If international capital had eliminated Nation-State boundaries,
this could not have happened.
juttafranz: What is really happening, the Lord
forbids, that I quote them, is what Marx and Lenin explained, the centralization
of capital, and therewith the globalization of the State. Military, Political
Power in one hand, in that of "Corporate America", investing nearly $500
billion annually, to keep all the genocide "Stars" like Rumsfeld 'trigger-happy",
and to leave billions of "wretched" only with the "Stripes" of geometric,
progressive limpenization and pauperization.
nonpositivism: Franz, ironically this is local
"socialism" for Govt./Military Complex, stabilizes the USA Economu since WWII,
R & R, Employment, etc. The whole USA Commercial aviation industry is
moving in this direction.
carlzim: 0n Marx--from a RUSSIAN contact on a
forum:
Marx is mostly known primarily as the founder
of Communism.0
It is often forgotten that Marx and Friedrich
Engels have made the
fundamental investigation of Capitalism. I am
very grateful for the
Soviet education that gave me the basic knowledge
of philosophy and
economics. The works of Hegel, Marx and Engels
being thoroughly
examining and thus hated at school and in University
appeared to be a
great knowledge that I appreciate nowadays.
nonpositivism: (above should have read R &
D - Research and Development, although R & R would have worked too!)
carlzim: Moreover, Marx is referred while talking
about the Globalization
process. He is often called a prophet of Globalization.
Marx and Engels were the first theorists to correctly
identify Capitalism
as the principal driving force behind increasing
levels of international
interdependence, a process that he believed was
both transforming human
society and uniting the species.
carlzim: Marx and Engels describe how globalization
prizes open national economies
and how global markets determine the pattern of
economic development
across the planet. The Bourgeoisie has through
its exploitation of the
world market given a cosmopolitan character to
production and consumption
in every country.
carlzim: In the 1840's, Marx was already observing
a backlash against globalization.
People had become more and more enslaved under
a power alien to
them (a pressure which they have conceived of
as a dirty trick on the
part of the so-called universal spirit, etc,),
a power which has become
more and more enormous and, in the last instance,
turns out to be the
world market.
All this makes Marx to be estimated as the great
discoverer of the 19th
century.
carlzim: For more information about Globalization
and Marx I recommend to read the article from Britannica.com "Marx, prophet
of globalization"
http://nuance.dhs.org/lbo-talk/0009/0340.html
carlzim: That's it! Any comments?
carlzim: Parallels today?
juttafranz: Iris, Stella & Jutta, the German
Crew (leaving me outside as an Aryan honoris causa), how does the German
politico-economic, and even military development fits into the grim picture
that I painted above?
iiiiriiiis: Yes, Franz, and Progressive Pauperization
goes hand in hand by growing unemployment - e.g., in Germany the unemployment
rate 4 is some Million people - a problem which the "German Government" is
supposed to "solve".
jutta_schmitt2002: Quite an assertion above, Franz!
And very valid observations, Carl. Probably, Marx and Engels will become
the "Samuelson" of the 21st century.
iiiiriiiis: Again, the question rises what "unempoyment"
is supposed to denote here, and my "friend" Moller gives us a hint: "The
common interpretation of unemployment was that it was a cyclical phenomenon.
[...] But now most unemployment is not cyclical, it is stuctural. People
are on the dole because their skills belong to an industry that is dying.
[...] Unemployment is a consequence of working in a sunset industry with
an obsolete skill." (122)
juttafranz: Will German Europe allow Corporate
America to steal its global show, to become the "Big Brother" of future Orwell
Homeland?
carlzim: Marx is still popula r in Russia. Got
them to understand globalization
carlzim: IMHO, Marx developed his ideas to save
Capitalism, i.e., to frighten
Western European capitalists to give the workers
benefits or else the
resurgent Monarchists (prevalent in mid-19th Century)
would incite the
workers to revolt, overthrow the Bourgeoise and
restore the Monarchist
aristocracies. Marx's ideas were first publicized
in the London Herald
Tribune, which was owned by wealthy capitalists,
and Friedrich Engles
was a member of a wealthy European banking family
that owned most
cotton mills in USA. In pre-1792 France, the aristocracy
did more for
the workers, e.g., built public baths and Tuilleries
gardens, than
post-1972 Bourgeoise.
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris, not only the industry
is dying out, but those whose working skills were adapted for it, too.
carlzim: Franz, the conflict between USA and Europe
will be phony. Globals rule
iiiiriiiis: Exactly so, Jutta.
naranjahit2002: Sorry protectX was enabled. reading
back.
carlzim: And there are the diversions, e.g.:
Satanism is USA today-most likelky it's conducted
by MKULTRA, as we pointed outg
repeatedly in previous Crew chats.
carlzim:
High School Satanism Club Prompts Parental Outrage
A group of San Mateo High School students trying
to stir up controversy
formed a club based on Satanism, a religion typically
associated with
hedonistic philosophy and with the rituals of
black magic.
Calling themselves The Satanic Thought Society,
co-president of the club
James Doolittle admits he originally started the
club with his friend Matt
Heeney to "rile things up a bit."
juttafranz: What I mean, Carl, is precisely "Corporate"
America versus "Global" Europe. That is what is on the order of the day.
That's why Schroeder and Bush are not precisely loving bed-fellows. Schroeder
has a premonition of things to come, of things that soon will fall apart.
carlzim: But now that the two juniors have studied
the teachings of Anton LaVey,
founder of the Church of Satan, they say Satanism
helps people to express
themselves.
"Its (Satanism's) purpose is to turn man back
into a natural state and not
have him corrupted by religion," Doolittle said.
The club does not worship the devil, he said,
as some may think. In a
flier posted around the school, the club says
its goal is to divide church
from state completely. san mateo county times
Chuck Jones
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, another word on those
German elections and consequences. I've been quite "detached" from the political
happenings in Germany for the last, say 10 years. I have not "felt the heat"
of German political elections in quite a while, so to speak (although I
have felt the hellfire of events here in Venezuela, and that is quite some
kind of heat, I'd say). From what I could collect from our famous, worldwide
"information" sources, the September 22nd elections in Germany were decided
over the topic of an eventual German participation in a war against Iraq.
...
carlzim: Jutta, I understand. I still think it's
a "show."
jutta_schmitt2002: .... They say that public support
for the SPD and Greens had risen sharply after Chancellor Gerhard Schröder
(SPD) and Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer (Green Party) had rejected a
German participation in a US invasion of Iraq, even if the invasion was
envisioned under a UN mandate. ...
juttafranz: German Crew, our (Wo)men in Freiburg,
Mainz and Kelsterbach, what do you think?
nonpositivism: Iris, what would you say the "true"
unemployment rate is in Germany. That is, the percentage of Adult Workers
normally in the Labor force who now are not?
iiiiriiiis: Supposedly so, Jutta - yes, that's
what they say.
nonpositivism: What is the current unemployment
rate in Germany, as I have defined it?
iiiiriiiis: Officially, 4 Million people, Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: I think the majority of average
Germans may oppose the "war option"on grounds of the horrible, historic
experience of two world wars, a general scepticism against militarism for
this very reason and the evidence of the main objective what concerns the
war against Iraq, which is, by no means, "self-defence" of the US, but oil
interests. Now, although there has been an apparent coincidence of the anti-war
sentiments of the majority of the German population and the official anti-war
position of the government, the reasons for the latter one to oppose a war
against Iraq may rather lie in German economic interests in the Gulf region,
that compete with those of the US, than in "pacifism" per se.
carlzim: More stuff that may be related MKULTRA,
as addressed in earlier Crew
chats:
Los Angeles loses hundreds of foster children
Hundreds of foster children in the Los Angeles
County child-welfare system
have been lost.
Officials can't find them and believe most have
been abducted by relatives
or guardians.
iiiiriiiis: That is, about 10% I guess, but I'm
not sure. Would you happen to know, Stella?
juttafranz: Which class, the Lord forbids again,
is really "unemployed"? And which "class" is over-employed in Germany, that
has even to be imported?
carlzim:
A study by the Department of Children and Family
Services found that out
of 50,000 children the city was unable to find
488.
Lawyer Linda Wallace Pate, said: "This is yet
another shocking revelation
of a beleaguered child-welfare system that puts
children at more risk in
the system than if they had remained with their
families."
Ms Pate represents the family of a child who ran
away from foster care and
was later found dead.
naranjahit2002: Interesting point about German
military development / status: military aid in the Gulf war was booked as
"economic aid to developing countries", by the way.
juttafranz: This is the secret of a real discussion
on "unemployment" today.
iiiiriiiis: High qualified Intellectual Labour
Force has to be imported, Franz.
juttafranz: You see.
carlzim: And which class's kids are killed or
disappear in USA?
juttafranz: That's the "works".
iiiiriiiis: Therefore, I'm going to "export myself",
soon )))) you see, Franz!
carlzim: Like the dirty war in Argentina in 1970's?
carlzim: County officials believe more than 50%
of those missing were taken by a
relative or parents. The rest are presumed to
have run away.
The report shows that only 64 children who were
first declared missing
have been recovered or returned voluntarily.
At least eight were killed or died in accidents
after running away or
being abducted.
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella, and I think if the
threatening war scenario in Iraq materializes the German (and European) governments
fear they could loose markets and their access to important energy sources.
Europe's already unstable economy would be badly affected by a new oil crisis,
and war in Iraq would militarily, economically, politically and socially
destabilize the whole region, with the burden of masses of refugees seeking
entrance to "safer places".
carlzim: County supervisor Michael Antonovich
describes it as shocking.
He said: "We are working together to ensure that
every child is accounted
for. These eight deaths are examples of how dysfunctional
the system is."
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_683045.html?menu=news.latestheadlines
carlzim: That's it!
juttafranz: Now, the only question is; In which
fields Germany, Europe, urgently needs "labourers"? And, how far is the
USA as far as that same field is concerned. That's where the real global
competition between the two fighting cocks is raging; anything else is political
pan et circenses.
naranjahit2002: Jutta I'd agree to your lAst comment.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Stella. --- Franz,
that is a difficult question.
juttafranz: Stella and Jutta, is that really the
main reason for Europe's cautionary vibrations towards the USA, the fear
of that avalanche of migratory, starving living corpses, of the dangers of
modern war, that would affect Europe directly, and the oil and riches below
Saudi Arabia and Iraq? Or, do Tesla and Reich ring other bells? Do the heavens
call?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, having read back through
your comments: How exactly is MKULTRA, in your opinion, linked to the current
domestic scenario the USA (restriction of civil liberties, progressive implementation
of an ever refined surveillance state, etc.)?
iiiiriiiis: Can you elabourate for us, Franz?
- (By the way, I guess we would need to clarify in the context of Physical
Labour versus Intellectual Labour also the concept of Rational Labour, it's
relation towards the former.)
juttafranz: Carl, what about your beloved topic,
space militarization and colonization? Do they influence the "New Wars"
in Arabia? Do they influence the US-European relations and elections?
jutta_schmitt2002: Help me a little here, friends,
I'm "sitting on the wire": In the current, global scenario, we are trying
to determine, what kind and degree of competition is actually still left,
and who will "win the battle". This battle, it seems, will be won by those
who develop "superior" means of ... creation, thus, who are the most advanced
in biotechnology, space technology (non-military) .... ?
carlzim: Franz, I think they influence the new
wars by giving Russia more influence, as it has a major space program...
juttafranz: I am the Questioner today, Iris! You
are the Answerers! At least, the Onlookers for Answers.
carlzim: and develops some related technology
jutta_schmitt2002: ... and other forms of "energy
production"?
carlzim: including the switch from oil to Tesla
free energy
juttafranz: You are the Introducers, I am part
of the "Seducers" of the Youth -- I'm in excellent company, Anaxagoras, Socrates,
Bloch.
juttafranz: I ask and listen today, Iris.
iiiiriiiis: Okay, Franz.
carlzim: The more complicated the elites may plan
an event, the better for them,
as they would think, people wouldn't really understand
it, so it's a
freeway for them.
juttafranz: Could be, Carl.
juttafranz: Iris, Stella & Jutta, read back
my precise questions.
juttafranz: otherwise, Scott may "accuse" me again
of being "afraid" to ask questions. Meanwhile, I will be looking at Jutta's
questions.
nonpositivism: Carl, yes, sometimes it's Leadership
by Obfuscation. But that doesn't necessarily require complication or misdirection.
It can be very simple. Such as prohibiting USA Reporters to film the Gulf
War Live and up close (this applies to any USA military engagement since
1983 - Grenada). It's censorship. Simple brute force from the executive branch.
juttafranz: Jutta's trillionaire question: "we
are trying to determine, what kind and degree of competition is actually still
left, and who will "win the battle". This battle, it seems, will be won by
those who develop "superior" means of ... creation, thus, who are the most
advanced in biotechnology, space technology (non-military) .... ?"
jutta_schmitt2002: Is it ALL a matter of elites,
Carl, or would you say there is some other "driving force" that makes for
profit and war?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott --- obfuscation? What
does this term mean?
naranjahit2002: FRanz I do not have any "data"
to answer your question, sorry. Only presumptions.
jutta_schmitt2002: (for ze german speakerz)
juttafranz: Competition is really contradiction,
centralization, unification, self-destruction.
jutta_schmitt2002:
jutta_schmitt2002: Stella - put your presumptions
onto the table please! "Raw", as they may be.
naranjahit2002: Verdunkelungen Jutta.
nonpositivism: Carl: Obfuscation cnt also can
mean simply withholding key information items. For example, even I did not
know until recently about the USA's Classified operations in the late 70's
in Afghanistan, playing games to effect regime change and induce a Soviet
invasion in 1979. Another example: the games Sadat and Kissinger played in
1973 on the White House back channel so that an Israel forced to the Brink
would be forced into post-War negotiations which could benefit the USA. Each
operation was "Classified" sealed to all but a few insiders for 20 years.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Stella.
naranjahit2002: oder Verwirrung
nonpositivism: Another interesting one is the
assassination of Abraham Lincoln in 1865. In this case the withholding of
information went on for over a century - and still goes on. See the new
book Blood On The Moon.
carlzim: From a German contact:
carlzim: Good morning Carl und Guten Morgen,
This is my thing. I call it "The World As Myth."
I wrote this novel which I call "Only
One Tear May Fall." I based it on a story told
to me 42 years ago. Another Third Reich
story? I hope not! I wrote it from her perspective
about what was going on, and even
though she served as an SS secretary of sorts,
the SS was far too compartmentalized
for anything other than rumors and even they were
dangerous to pass on.
carlzim: The sins of the Reich, if you can call
it that, are still being committed today. It is in
this book that I conclude that, had another man
been in power or easier to control,
Germany would have won. The war college has already
run the scenerio, and the
facors for success were in place. This was a favorite
war game.
Perhaps, the few who really rule allow things
to proceed only to a point. Maybe that
is why Hitler failed and the Soviet Union is defunct
as a political enity.
juttafranz: The economic reality of competition
we see on a global scale in the centralization, monopolization and monolithization
of production, of capital, reaching its "breaking point", its zenith-nadir,
reaching its limits of accumulation -- probably already surpassing those
limits, where the domno- or falling card-box edifice is already crushing down.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, just imagine, what else
the "educated public" does not know, thanks to "national security interests"!
nonpositivism: ...Meanwhile press reports merely
quote or mildly interpret "official" information from the Pentagon, etc.
It's chilling, works almost like Pravda did but in a nominal free market
(7 points of view at most).
carlzim: Carl....what you point out has been bantered
about for some time now, and we are
allowed to banter it about because it allows us
the illusion of being free.
We like to believe that might is right and that
right will always prevail when, in fact,
those who have the gold will always rule.
That having been said, are we really free? Nein.....ist
nicht!
carlzim: That's it.
juttafranz: In fact, it is the limit of the non-relations
of "human survival", the "breaking point" of Labour, vis-a-vis Earthly Nature.
But this is not the only Nature in the Universe, in the Poliverse.
nonpositivism: Jutta, absolutely. This strongly
dates to WWII. Did you know that Roosevelt (at VP Wallace's behest) devoted
huge R & D to the Atomic Bomb without even *consulting* Congress? This
was done deliberately. (It's also a violation of our Constitution, but has
never been reported that way.)
juttafranz: The stars and planets are also Nature,
but to reach them, you do not travel on horse-back, by train, by aero-plane,
not even oil-driven.
juttafranz: Also, the totality of the physical,
manual labour of 6 billion workers, their "energy" won't take us to the Milky
Way.
nonpositivism: Similarly the CIA, NSA etc. make
only the vaguest (if any) Accounting reportings to Congress. Their operation
are secret. This is unconstitutional as Gary Wills (one of America's best
Constitutional scholars) has noted but frankly the USA has moved outside
of the Constitution and has operated there for some time.
juttafranz: other spheres, mensions, become relevant;
the transmutation of the species.
juttafranz: And, as Jutta indicated, there we
find a "new" competition, Production versus Creation.
jutta_schmitt2002: I bet "national security interests"
in the US will prevent an exhaustive investigation of the events of 9-11
for the next 50 years, which is long enough to go through with all the strategic
plans of the US to secure its interests elsewhere on the globe, basing its
"reasoning" for each and every action to take precisely on the myth of 9-11.
nonpositivism: Power tends to corrupt. As executive
or Military power gets bloated, it seeks more and more scope and scorns
any limits to constrain it. This is exactly why ALL the power theoretically
to govern the USA is in the hands of Congress (which can remove Presidents,
Amend Laws, remake the Supreme Court, etc.) as designed by the Framers which
rejected the Imperial Presidency. The Imperial Presidency came into being
in America gradually. The Civil War through WW I was the first stage, since
WWII we have entered the era of dramatically increased executive power. Civil
and individual liberty are sometimes promoted by a large State apparatus,
but generally over time this means a net loss of liberty.
juttafranz: Concluding my comments on your question,
Jutta, today, in our class, you explained to the students, and Jeff once
said it too, and even Bill confirmed it, that the NASA, Pentagon, as far
as Military "Creativity" is concerned, is 1000 years in advance of our current,
common, wildest dreams of earthly reality.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, about "classification"
of information, I vividly remember the myths about "Entnazifizierung" (denazification)
after WWII in Germany, that were spread to the four winds and taught to innocent
school children like myself, only to learn many many years later, that many
a hard core Nazi scientist had been exported to the USA and served institutions
like NASA, for example.
nonpositivism: Very interesting, Jutta. It looks
like these childhood propaganda campaigns of ideology, these myths are taught
to all students. We like to teach children an ideal that we consciously
know is false. This is interesting.
juttafranz: If that is true, and seen from the
scrap knowledge of nanotechnology, of genetic engineering of the genome, that
is being spit out towards us, then, folks, we really have to convert all
our remaining "neurones" into creators, and see that production, competition,
capital, democracy and fascism are obsolete relicts of yestermillennium,
and that we are moving "faster than light" in the year 3333 AD already.
juttafranz: Now, I'll get back to my rocking chair,
and will continue asking questions, Iris.
iiiiriiiis: Continue, Franz.
juttafranz: I'm already in the year 6666 A.D.
, Iris.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, with regard to your
remarks above, trying to answer my question: - do we have to include in
our scenario the ... "possibility" of a "new leash of life" for "enhanced
capital accumulation in space" (in relation with "space colonization")?
iiiiriiiis: Seems I'm still stuck in the Pleistozän.
Continueth, please...
gocho24: Juttafranz: I hope you didn't mention
the year "6666" in any biblical or cabalistic terms
jutta_schmitt2002: (For Iris: I can feel my neurons
bend / as the heavy clouds descend. )
juttafranz: Well, Jutta, the obvious "negation"
of Production is Creation; even Creation may very well become obsolete in
the Year 3333, and then, its "superation", Neither Production Nor Creation
might take over in the Year 6666, in another Galaxy. Scott may find this
word-trickery, however, it is more enlightening than anything that comes
from Bush or Rumsfeld these days.
nonpositivism: Here's an overall question for
you all to ponder: Undoubtedly we've all done substantial international
traveling here. What I'm sure you've all experienced is the "culture" shock
going from one country/culture to another. These differences are still huge
in spite of superficial technical compatibilities, instant communication
media and "global capital". I would be suprrised if anyone who has experienced
this culture shock of readjustment believes the Nation-State is already
on its way out.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: Franz loves to
speak in biblical terms, and sometimes he "thunders" on his students in
quite a "propetic" manner!
iiiiriiiis: And if so, what would "enhanced capital
accumulation" imply - still extraction of "profits", but based on the exploitation
of intellectual labour force (?)?
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott ---- you touch on the
aspect of "equal, unequal and combined development" here. Travelling all around
the globe these days may actually equal "time travelling" into the past or
future, depending on where you go. However, you may find, that even in the
technologically most advanced nations, people's minds are not connected up
with the global reality, and may display even feudal traits and trends.
nonpositivism: back to one of the Conferences
we have last year...when all the world grows up speaking the same language...English
or "Globish" or something like that, as its mother tongue, I will concede
the Nation-state is obsolete.
jutta_schmitt2002: correcting: many or most people's
minds ...
jutta_schmitt2002: I herewith fiercly refuseth
thy proposal, o Scott!
nonpositivism: On a more concrete level, Jutta,
when it comes to enforcing a "contract" between Rural Chinese, don't expect
the WTO or Gatt or Global Capital or Neoconservatism or neoliberalism to get
involved. Expect the Chinese Kuomintang do deal with it, right, Carl?
juttafranz: Iris, applying Trotsky's Law of Even,
Uneven and Combined Development, to our Transhistoric Relations, of course,
today still we have living remnants of millions of years ago, still alive,
and going strong, with the corresponding "mind", and we have "true" Americans
working in NASA that live in the future already, some even live on the Moon
already; hence this unequal and combined relicts we will always have, but
they are single bushes, the real burning forest, the dominant historic realities,
of these we are talking here.
nonpositivism: continuing my previous argument:
In this respect, friends, Nation-states and tribalisms continue to play a
role, the dominant role in the lives of human beings. Transnational Capital
and ideology is making some headway for a degree of economic and technical
integration, but for example the USA still has it nuclear missiles pointed
right at China in spite of the fact it has sold China massive Technical, Military
and Space equipment!
nonpositivism: When America's Military Strategists
look to point fingers and pull triggers in War "Games", they operate from
a selfish, nationalist position.
jutta_schmitt2002: It is more about how people
think, what they do, how they perceive "their world", what their daily concerns
are, where they think the problems are and how they think these problems
can be solved, Scott. Like here, in Venezuela, where we have found it is
close to impossible to draw people from their religious "cosmovision". People
tend to strongly believe that their fate lies entirely in "God's" hands.
This is the ultimate bottom line we draw from many a debate and discussion
with our students.
nonpositivism: Jutta, I follow you somewhat, but
don't really understand how this negates nationalism and strong local cultural
identity.
jutta_schmitt2002: It doesn't, Scott. The Nation
State is still in operation, the global trend is towards its disappearing,
but we still see it operating on different levels.
carlzim: From a forum:
The first, "Fitter family laws" were in acted
in the first decade of the 1900, by the 1920's US government information
films were carrying the message, "Some were born to be a burden on the rest."
The idea that the state had the duty to purify the race w
as embraced by social reformers on the left and
the right. Writers, H.G.Wells and George Bernard Shaw; Statesmen Winston
Churchill wrote and lectured on
carlzim: "Plans for a Pure Race," fortunately
their ides were rejected by the British Parliament. In 1926 The
United States Supreme Court ruled mandatory sterilization
constitutional. The case # 292 Buck vs. Bell was engineered to do just that.
carlzim: Comments?
juttafranz: What impressed me most a while ago,
and especially that it came from Israel -- those arguments and statements
are generally very scientific and convincing -- was that a General of the
Israeli Army, in an interview with Newsweek International, at the turn of
the millennium categorically explained and prophesied that in the new millennium,
like Marx and Engels wanted, but more so Bakunin, that the Nation State,
that national states will fade into oblivion, that one should not waste one's
time analyzing them at all. He practically said that there will only be one,
single World State. Guess which one he meant? I think the man was right --
koodoos for a brilliant, intelligent Israeli!
nonpositivism: Jutta: Californians in America
still see themselves as living in a vastly different country from Mexicans
in Mexico City. It's still "Us" And "Them". This also explains the continuing
racial friction when millions of Mexicans spill over the border, those illegal
"wetbacks" we play games with for immigration and cheap labor. Yes, NAFTA
has allowed America to more freely exploit Mexico.....but as far as bringing
together the 2 nations that I kind of doubt.
jutta_schmitt2002: (Note for Jesús: Please
convey your own impressions on the role of roman-catholic religion and its
impact in the consciousness of Venezuelans today. )
naranjahit2002: Folks I have to leave now. I enjoyed
the chat. Please send me the last part. Thanks.
naranjahit2002: I saved it so far.
naranjahit2002: BYe!
carlzim: Folks, after chat, visit Spy Museum has
a great web site at:
http://www.spymuseum.org/index.asp
Yahoo! Messenger: naranjahit2002 has left the
conference.
carlzim: Bye, Stell. Thanks for joining.
gocho24: My mon was trying to force me into going
to church once... I told her that I won't be participant of an institutions
that keeps people from ever achieving progress, brainwashing them into thinking
that God and only God is the owner of their destinies...
jutta_schmitt2002: Perfectly valid observation,
Scott! Here, the dear conceptions, traditions and cultures of "the past" will
display quite an interia and keep living in people's minds, very much in
spite of global trends.
jutta_schmitt2002: inertia
gocho24: She told me I was a heretic.... I told
her to bring me a 6-pack of beer on her way home from Church
iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Stella!!!
juttafranz: Bye! Stella!!
juttafranz: The manuscript is coming ...
juttafranz: Till now I have everything.
gocho24: There's a HUGE generational gap in the
venezuelan society and in the andean region (where I'm from) it's even bigger...
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús - how old were
you? When did you leave for the US? Were you educated and brought up in Venezuela,
or in the US?
gocho24: Jutta: I'm 27... I came to the US at
age 18. I was brought up in Venezuela, but went to college in the US
juttafranz: Interesting, Jesus.
gocho24: However, my view of the church was sheped
more by my readings about it than by cultural exposure to the US.
gocho24: And when my mom called me a heretic and
threatend to write the pope in order to get me excomulgated (I told her
that it would be nice to be part of that elite group of people that were
excomulgated in the 20th century - Madonna and Fidel Castro) I must've been
21
carlzim: Folks, after chat, visit these mind control
sites:
http://www.geocities.com/agreymatter/mindcontrolpt1.html
http://www.napanet.net/~moiraj/wwwboard/messages/2375.html
gocho24: which makes that 6-pack I asked for a
legal request in the US, by the way
jutta_schmitt2002: Imagine, Jesús: I would
dare say NONE of the students of Franz, nevermind their fire and progressiveness,
all young people between the age of 22 and your age, cannot even fathom
the idea, that "God" may not exist, as Franz carefully likes to put it.
They will not even allow the doubt, they will never pose themselves the famous
question: "what if?!" What if "God" does not exist, what if what I've been
told are lies, what if my education has intended to keep me ignorant, etc.
etc.
jutta_schmitt2002: Reading your remarks above,
I see you are in good company, Jesús!
juttafranz: Although I was somehow "afraid" of
Scotty, I made an interesting remark about the "nation state", after Jesus'
excellent introduction of himself, which I find revealing, just scroll upwards
again, and see what I said. Posting is very fast today -- many a thing of
interest we miss.
carlzim: As a teenager in NYC in 1950's, my Hispanic
buddies carried photos of Jesus Christ and nude women
gocho24: jutta_schmitt: are you serious? I remember
being interested in the idea of God's nonexistence when I read Isaac Asimov
in one of his books saying that God was the easy way of explaining things...
it was the easy excuse for our ignorance.
gocho24: Carlzim: Interesting combination ....
Jesus Christ and Nude Women..... I bet that would have not been allowed in
NYC during Guiliani
juttafranz: Exactly that this morning I told my
students, Jesus!
carlzim: And some Puerto Rican guys carried photos
of Abiziu Campos, nationalist leader
juttafranz: And Jutta gave a detailed comment
on this topic.
carlzim: Jesus, who knows/ Guliani liked to dtress
as a woman
carlzim: but he wasn't gay.
jutta_schmitt2002: I'm serious, Jesús.
We are running against a roman-catholic wall each and every day, in each
and every session. Too deeply inculcated in the minds. No interest, no courage
to confront other ideas.
gocho24: I had an american friend in College with
whom I had several conversations about God.... he said he stopped believing
in God and/or the system when, during the 1996 elections, he was assigned
to vote in a church... imagine that..
carlzim: And some Argentine guys carried photos
of the Perons and Carlos Gardel
gocho24: jutta: I think that every student, once
it steps on a college campus, s/he should leave behind the heavy baggage
of religion...
jutta_schmitt2002: Better even: A religious guy
from USA, teaching here at the University of the Andes, once told us that
it was the very Venezuelans who had succeeded in that he gave up his belief
in God!
carlzim: The Puerto Rican guys shouted "Viva Puero
Rico Libre. Nacionalista."
nonpositivism: Jutta, I am convinced that your
anti-religious or atheistic framework is partly an overcompensation, an overreaction
to the passive Roman Catholic "faith" which you observe every day.
carlzim: Puerto
gocho24: Jutta: You teach at ULA, right?
gocho24: Carlzim: Puerto Rico should become a
state....
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: Before they see
any classroom here in the ULA, the students have to attend a Misa (holy
mass? mess? )
nonpositivism: Same for you too, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús: Franz teaches
officially at the ULA, and I'm an unofficial underground teacher.
jutta_schmitt2002:
gocho24: Carlzim: For one thing, it would make
3 million latinos able to run for congress...
gocho24: MASS?
jutta_schmitt2002: misa?
jutta_schmitt2002: mess?
jutta_schmitt2002: mass?
jutta_schmitt2002: morass?
gocho24: I went to a catholic school in Venezuela...
for 3 years.... I don't think it was enough to brainwash me
juttafranz: You know what, Scott, I think the
worst creatures on earth, the scum of the globe are atheists, religious
fiendly creatures, savage communists and terrorist Arabs. We should really
uproot this 'human material" from the globe.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scottie: Franz, in his youth,
was a deeply religious person. Not me. Dieser Kelch ist an mir vorübergegangen!
- Translation please, Stella!
gocho24: I got in trouble once for saying that
I failed to see how standing, kneeling and sitting was going to save me...
it might make it physically fit, but I rather go to the gym for that
jutta_schmitt2002: True Franz. Let's roast the
atheists.
gocho24: "La Religion es el Opio de los Pueblos"
my dad used to quote...
jutta_schmitt2002: What a dad, my country(wo)men!
gocho24: (When my mom wasn't around he would say
that)
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: oops )))
nonpositivism: Franz, but what do we do with the
religious Communists? Would you try to convert them to atheism, purify their
souls?
carlzim: Hi, folks
jutta_schmitt2002: Welcome back again, Carl.
gocho24: I'm still in shocked from what you said,
Jutta.... NO student at ULA would question the existance of God? NONE?
carlzim: Paul Robeson was a religious Communist.
Father, a minister.
nonpositivism: yup, Carl. Something like that.
People defy classification.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús --- I cannot categorically
answer your question with "yes". There may be students who question the
existence of God, and the religious doctrine as taught by the roman-catholic
Church, but we never actually got to know one.
carlzim: However, Paul and his father, though
married, had mistresses
carlzim: Agreed, Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps they do not dare speak
out publicly, being afraid of the danger of being stoned to death.
gocho24: hahahahahahahha
carlzim: Kingsley, the Archbishop of Canterbury,
was a Communist.
juttafranz: Don't worry, Scott, nearly 90% of
the world population is religious, and billions of them are "coolies", "camel-drivers",
"niggers", "kaffirs", "latinos" -- we'll roast all of them in our
"home land" gas-chambers; this scum has no right to seduce our Aryan daughters,
upset our world peace, and to live from our tax money -- Russia and China
are full of "religious communists", but they are communists all the same,
we'll uproot every single one of them ... Heil!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: (Next to the Church, they sell
stones in all sizes, for "stonification events" )
nonpositivism: The great non-violent revolutionaries
going back to Christ, through King and Ghandi....were all deeply religious
men. Even Einstein declared himself to be a deeply religious man, along the
lines of Baruch Spinoza. We must keep categories at arms length.
nonpositivism: Franz, what have you been drinking
today??
carlzim: Father Tiso (Slova kia, WW2) was a Fascist
gocho24: I'm still debating if God's popularity
is a cause for some cultures to be left behind in the race for progress or
is it because they are being left behind that they turn to God for consolation?
carlzim: Slovakia, WW2
nonpositivism: Jesus, consider that you are living
in one of the most religious, G-d fearing nations in the world. You're in
the Bible Belt, man! Yet American Capital rules the world. How do you explain
that?
nonpositivism: Do American say prayers of thanks
for their superior deliverance and monetary position?
jutta_schmitt2002: It does not seem to me, that
the Bush Junta is very godfearing, Scott.
nonpositivism: G-d Bless America! And so forth?
carlzim: Most priests in Spain 1940's) disliked
all politicians including Franco
jutta_schmitt2002: On the dollar we read: In GOD
we trust.
jutta_schmitt2002: It should read: In ALAN GREENSPAN
we trust.
gocho24: Non: I see your point, however, I don't
see the US as a religious-driven society.... if it were so, kids would still
be praying in school.
gocho24: Alan Greenspan is the closest thing to
a God, that's right
gocho24: religion-driven, it should read
carlzim: Franco broke his promise and taxed the
Church heavily
nonpositivism: Jutta, quite the contrary about
Bush and Co. This is where Helen Caldicott can be helpful. It is precisely
the apocalyptic visions of fundamental Christianity which allows Americans
to more openly worship "the bomb". Do you remember the film Beneath the Planet
of The Apes? If not, check it out.
carlzim: Castro doesn't persecute the Church
gocho24: Non: I think that flick has never gotten
the credit it deserves....
nonpositivism: Jesus, lots of kids do pray even
in public school, whenever and wherever the local parents and school board
try to get around the 1st. Amendment. Furthermore...
nonpositivism: Tens of millions of American Kids
recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school every week if not every day, which
affirms believe in G-d.
iiiiriiiis: I was just thinking about your remark
above, Franz, on the statement of a general of the Israeli army concerning
the "fate" of what has become to be known as the Nation State. Also, about
the logical consequences and implications you are emphasizing: that the
entire base and superstructure, the economic, political, military and social
relations characterizing the capitalist mode of production have basically
"changed" already due to the dominant intellectual labour. In this sense,
concerning the "existence" of the "nation state" and "national constitutions"
and elections, these might probably be compared with the still existing
remnants of feudalism, the christian-catholic church, and their "existence"
explained with reference to the even, uneven and combined development Jutta
and you....
iiiiriiiis: mentioned above.
gocho24: Non: That's food for thought... I'm still
processing your ideas
carlzim: As a teenager, Stalin was educated in
a Geeorgian Orthodox Christian school. He restricted the Church politically
but didn't persecute them
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for a revealing comment,
Scott. This makes things even worse, and confirms once more the role of
religion in endless wars and slaughterings across history.
jutta_schmitt2002: (Pledge of Allegiance? - clarification
for ze azeists please)
gocho24: Jutta: I pledge alligiance to the Flag....
carlzim: Georgians are a mix of Greek (stbborn),
Turlish (nasty), Persian (traditional) and Russian (tough)
carlzim: (stubborn)
juttafranz: Thanks, Iris. There is no "role" for
weak, atomized "nation states" anymore; globalization necessitates a global
state, otherwise globalization would be a farce.
gocho24: it's a saying every american kid recites
in school.... it's supposed to be the 1st commandment for every american...
carlzim: Where does racism fit in globalizaton?
jutta_schmitt2002: hm
gocho24: I pledge allegiance
jutta_schmitt2002: (May I plead ze fifz here
)
gocho24: to the flag
gocho24: of the United States of America
gocho24: and to the Republic
gocho24: for which it stands,
gocho24: One Nation, Under God
gocho24: Indivisible
gocho24: With Liberty and Justice For all
jutta_schmitt2002: hm
gocho24: There.... that's the whole Pledge
jutta_schmitt2002: Sounds like a patriotic identification
with the Fuehrer, oops, I mean nation and symbols...
juttafranz: In the "coolies", "niggers", in the
"kaffirs" and "camel-drivers", Carl, in the "mad cattle" that have to be
directed to the slaughter-house, to be butchered annually by the US$500 billion
worth of arms of mass destruction. Racism decides who will be the innocent
victims -- the billions of obsolete manual, physical labour forces in Asia,
Africa, Oceania and Latin America, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: And this is what people have
in their minds when they go to war and "defend" "their" nation, after the
Fuehrers have determined who are the good and who the bad guys.
jutta_schmitt2002: Friends, I have to leave for
today. Still got some work pending, and an empty stomach. Was nice to see
you all again.
gocho24: That's what "Justice for All" means ...
someone has to bring Justice to "All", wherever they are....
juttafranz: Me too, folks, it was great fun!
jutta_schmitt2002: It worked fatally in Germany.
We may see it working in the USA, too.
juttafranz: Thanks for your invaluable contributions,
especially Carl, Jutta & Iris for the introductory remarks.
SAYING: BYE
iiiiriiiis: So let's continue next Thursday, friends.
It was a pleasure to read you all! Taketh care, all! Bye!
gocho24: Thank you all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, great introduction today!
Thanks!
juttafranz: Greetings to Fran, and Scott, to your
beloved wife of "Latino" descent, and those fiery sons!
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for being here, Jesús!
juttafranz: jesus, thanks.
juttafranz: Jesus, thanks for your life story.
juttafranz: i'll send all of you the raw version
of the chat just now.
iiiiriiiis: Okay, thanks Franz!
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, Iris, Stella, see you
next time.
juttafranz: I have everything, but you can check
whether Yahoo censored something.
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all.
iiiiriiiis: Buenas Noches, all! See you next time!
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Buenas Noches Iris.
juttafranz: Generally, Yahoo interferes when "non-"
remarks appear, and then Franz is always the Inquisition Culprit! Hahaha.
carlzim: I enjoyed our chat. Fran sends her regards
to all
nonpositivism: thanks, Franz
juttafranz: Bye, Folks!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks Carl. I enjoyed our
chat, too. Send our regards to Fran.
juttafranz: Scotty, you are just great!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Kudos to Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: For bearing with the atheists.
juttafranz: That's why I like to "tease" you so
very much!
carlzim: Buenos noches, gute nacht, dobri vyecher
juttafranz: Bye, folks.
carlzim: buna sera (Romanian)
jutta_schmitt2002: Bonne nuit monsieur Carl. C'était
un plaisir.
carlzim: Un plaisir, Jutta
carlzim: Bye
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Merci.
jutta_schmitt2002: Au revoir a tous.
nonpositivism: Soon I will be the only one left,
all others will fall by the wayside. Religious Philosophy will reign supreme.
jutta_schmitt2002: In this case: *keeping the
post*
juttafranz: You are our "wheat" among the straw,
Scott.
juttafranz: Bye, Scott. See us later, you are
always omnipresent in cyber-space!
juttafranz: Jutta is coming back, Scott.
juttafranz: To comment something, Yahoo booted
her out.
nonpositivism: cycling in and out of the Twilight
Zone, haha!
juttafranz: Yes, she is a re-cycling Phoenix,
I see ashes all over.
juttafranz: I will re-invite her just now.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined
the conference.
nonpositivism: Did you folks ever watch Rod Serling's
brilliant show the Twilight Zone? About 150 episodes were made that originally
aired 1959 - 1964. They are still rebroadcast constantly and their Black
and White film gives them a haunting, timeless quality.
juttafranz: And, fiat lux! There she is!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh,
the Lord kicketh the atheists out of the chat. ... Long live the Lord.
jutta_schmitt2002: Shall we put The Twilight Zone
onto the "films you gotta watch" list, Scott?
jutta_schmitt2002: (sorry, above it should readeth:
long liveth the Lord)
juttafranz: Scott, don't tell me you have become
an "A", an "Ace" too?
nonpositivism: Haha!! I mentioned the Twilight
Zone because coincidentally I saw one of its greatest episodes last night,
a comment on the Holocaust Concentration camps. In only 25 minutes, the show's
creator and writer Rod Serling packed an immense amount of spiritual, philosophical
issues while permanently indicting the Nazi War criminals.
jutta_schmitt2002: We don't have a chance here
to see these films, Scott. I doubt we find them here in the Videotecas.
nonpositivism: The title of the episode, "Death's
Head Revisited". In case you're interested. Now, Jutta, what was it you wished
to tell me?
juttafranz: Don't be "afraid" to tell or ask,
Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: I have cometh to tell thee,
that thou shallst not forgetteth, that even the Lord is human. So let's
not take too hard on him.
jutta_schmitt2002: And other than thatteth: My
aktionspotenzial mail server is still inactive. Will send you an info mail
when it works again.
jutta_schmitt2002: And now: et cum spiritu sanctu
amén. Have a nice afternooooon. Bye and until. Take care.
nonpositivism: remember, Jutta, Man (or Humankind
if you prefer) is perhaps not the best measure of all things.
jutta_schmitt2002: Agreed - absolutely agreed,
Scott.
nonpositivism: Even Shakespeare grasped this...remember
your Hamlet, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of
in your philosophy, Horatio".
jutta_schmitt2002: I subscribeth to this, my liege.
jutta_schmitt2002: And biddeth farewell to thee
now.
nonpositivism: Indeed, it is man's intuitive perception
of his own finiteness, his own limitations that allows the conceptualization
of the Infinitely Great, the Divine, the Mysterious. Without this sensibility,
the trues religious feeling, life is quite dull. Adios to all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Adios, Scott.
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the
conference.
nonpositivism: Well Franz, it is now down to us...the
showdown between the Religious Transcendist and The Atheistic Ace...the
last to leave loses, haha!
juttafranz: Scott, I have to go and cook, that's
the problem.
juttafranz: We have not ate since this morning.
juttafranz: I have to make a nice sancocho.
juttafranz: Anything that I find, I throw into
the pot, salt and pepper, and that's it.
juttafranz: OK, Scott, really, it was a pleasure.
juttafranz: Bye!!
juttafranz: As consolation, of my absence, enjoy
Anaxagoras.
juttafranz: bye!
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has left the conference.
juttafranz: Scotty, please go on leave!!
juttafranz: Proving your transreligious intransigency,
eh? (greetings from Jutta)
juttafranz: Waiting, Waiting For Godot, ad infinitum
et absurdum, until Yahoo referees us out of the game. Till then, bye, Scott.
The Florida Loser Takes It All! Bye!!
