INTERNATIONAL YAHOO CHAT
THE
GLOBALIZED, VIOLENT, CRIMINAL CULTURE
(Uncorrected, Raw,
Inedited Version)
Carl, Scott, Iris, Jesus, Juergen, Franz,
Jutta.
October 10, 2002.
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Yahoo! Messenger: Conference juttafranz-21522 started.
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SAYING HI!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Jesús, Carl, Iris and Jürgen!
juttafranz: Hi! Folks, Welcome Aboard the Ship of State, towards the Grazing
Home Land!!
carlzim: Hi all
gocho24: Hi all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Where is Scott?
carlzim: Where's Scott?
juttafranz: Well, if you are all there, without much ado, let's begin,
I have a somehow lengthy introduction. The theme is complex!
jutta_schmitt2002: What about Stella, Iris?
iiiiriiiis: Hello Carl, Jürgen, Jesús, Jutta and Franz!
iiiiriiiis: Stella is kept in jail.
juttafranz: Yes, she can't assist today!
carlzim: Scott is online. Please invite him
iiiiriiiis: No, sorry, joking - she has been there during the day and
still has to prepare some urgent things at the Kantforschungsstelle.
jutta_schmitt2002: I did, he did not get my invite. Please somebody else
try.
jurgen784: HELO.PROFESOR FRANZ
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism is not available.
carlzim: OK, Jutta
jurgen784: HI :JUTTA
juttafranz: Hi Juergen, Jesus!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, please try and invite Scott. Hello Jürgen!!!
Glad you made it!
juttafranz: Scott is not available??? Did he get "cold feet"?
jutta_schmitt2002: No, he is listed, Franz.
jurgen784: HI:IRIS
iiiiriiiis: Shall I try to invite Scott, or is anybody else trying?
iiiiriiiis: Hello Jürgen!
juttafranz: I invited him, he must have fallen asleep in front of his
PC -- he works and chats through the nights, burning the midnight oil.
jutta_schmitt2002: He does not respond at this moment. Carl, did you send
an invite?
carlzim: I invited Scott
juttafranz: Yes, I invited him twice; the man is fast asleep!!!
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
nonpositivism: yo!
carlzim: Hi, Scott
gocho24: Hi Scott!
nonpositivism: Conference in, acknowledged!
iiiiriiiis: El Scott! Ahí está! Welcome, Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ah. There he is.
juttafranz: As I said: I invited him, he must have fallen asleep in front
of his PC -- he works and chats through the nights, burning the midnight
oil. Now, at last: Hi! Scotty!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Ready for introduction, Franz.
juttafranz: Now I can begin. please, patience, my intro is lengthy!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Go ahead.
carlzim: Frtanz, please introduce the topic, hat happened in Venezuela
today?
INTRODUCTION
juttafranz: Here is the theme: THE GLOBALIZED. VIOLENT. CRIMINAL CULTURE
Chat Notes, 10th October, 2002.
By Franz J. T. Lee
juttafranz:
Outside beautifully Mother Nature smiles at us, with sunny Spring Vividness,
clad in green, blooming and blossoming red, pink, yellow, lilac and white,
she wishes contradiction, dialectics, dialogics to the world. However, hasta
cuando, Venezuelan homo sapiens sapiens, CEO, landowner, industrialist,
capitalist, multinational, general, oil worker, peasant, buhonero, lumpen,
will embrace terror, terrorism and violence; according to CNN, at this very
moment "more than a million" blindfolded, denaturalized, dissocialized,
"peaceful democrats" are marching in Caracas, intending to oust the "revolutionary"
government of Chavez, "ya"! What a globe, what a world, my country(wo)men!
iiiiriiiis: Alright, Franz. Continue, please.
juttafranz:
Of course all over, the language of the governments or of the "opposition"
is "civico-militar"; the prose style of Bolivarian and Neo-Liberal ideologies
is struck by military and warlike expressions, including words like struggle,
resist, march, victory, home land, patria, glory, nobility, not one step
backward, and overcome; similarly, the literature of global fascist ideology,
of newspeak, is replete with martial expressions.
jutta_schmitt2002: (They say quite a handful of saboteurs are on their
way to join the demonstration in Caracas and cause havoc)
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, please stay onboard. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002:
juttafranz: Anyhow, let's think, let's see what eminent, erudite authors
said about "violence" -- Scott will like what follows!
carlzim: Thans
jutta_schmitt2002: The militarization of thought and language, Franz.
juttafranz: Please save chat!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: yes
juttafranz:
Now, together with Camus and Popper, let us see what the revolutionary
trade unionist, the middle-class, civil engineer Eugène Sorel Georges
(1847-1922), from Cherbourg, France, has to tell us about the social, creative
role of violence in history. As you all should know, he was a passionate
defender of Alfred Dreyfus, the Jewish army officer who was wrongly convicted
of treason in France. Also, he heavily influenced Frantz Fanon's theory of
counter-violence.
jutta_schmitt2002: Tell us more about violence, Franz. - ok
juttafranz:
However, his best known work is Réflexions sur la violence
(1908 -- Reflections On Violence); that first appeared as a series
of articles in Le Mouvement Socialiste early in 1906 and has been
translated in many languages. During the 60's the global, anti-imperialist
student movement, next to Marx, Marcuse, Lukacs,Fromm and Reich, was studying
Sorel, especially his concept of violence.
juttafranz:
Sorel very clearly differentiated two concepts: Violence (the revolutionary
denial of the existing social order) and Force (the state's power of coercion).
Of course, like Marxism was perverted into Stalinism and Real Socialism,
so Sorel's theory of violence was first desecrated by Italian fascism, and
then utilized by the dictator Benito Mussolini.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carry on, Franz.
iiiiriiiis: Interesting, Franz - proceed please.
juttafranz:
Now what were the scientific and philosophic contents of his theory of
violence?
" Throughout Sorel's thought there runs a moralistic hatred of social
decadence and resignation. He attacked the idea of inevitable progress,
as developed by 18th-century philosophers, in his work Les Illusions
du progrès (1908; “Illusions of Progress”) and believed that
the future was what men chose to make it. Departing from the intellectual
tradition of European Socialism, Sorel held that human nature was not innately
good; he therefore concluded that a satisfactory social order was not likely
to evolve but would have to be brought about by revolutionary action."
jutta_schmitt2002: Valid points.
juttafranz: "With the outbreak of the Russian Revolution in 1917, Sorel
declared himself for the Bolsheviks, who he thought might be capable of
precipitating the moral regeneration of mankind. ..." Strange enough, in
his heyday, Sorel was generally categorized as being more a Fascist than
a Socialist. He also used the word violence in his own special way; by violence
he meant creative passion, not the throwing of stones, or the launching
of human bombs and less the burning of huts, houses and Twin Towers. He clearly
stated that we have not invented violence (coercion by social order), that
we are being born into a world of violence, that is, in capitalism. Not the
resistance against such oppressive domination is "violent", e contrario,
it is self-defence.
carlzim: Franz, IMHO, revolutionary & counterrevolutionary violence
started vs. blacks at end of Civil War in USA
carlzim: and in Russia by Nihlists and vs, Decembrists
juttafranz: D'ACCORD!! Carl. Valid Point!!
jutta_schmitt2002: So, Sorel speaks of the term "violence" as of the legitimate
counterpart to "force" imposed by social order, Franz? Revolutionary or emancipatory
violence as a means of liberation from "violence by social order"?
carlzim: USA Civil War was fought by revolutionary Capitalist North vs.
aristocratic south
juttafranz: Precisely so, Jutta: see:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=70528&tocid=0&query=sorel
Certainly Sorel's views were criticized by authors such as the French
philosopher-writer Albert Camus, born in Algeria, and the Austrian-born
British philosopher Karl Popper. Camus, beginning as an Existentialist who
subscribed to the view that “the universe is absurd,” another version of
Scott Schneider's "the universe is a madhouse", he continued believing in
the "personal affirmation of justice and human decency as compelling values
to be realized in conduct". Fervently, he appealed to "the 'Mediterranean'
tradition of moderation and human warmth and joy in living as opposed to
the 'northern' Germanic tradition of fanatical, puritan devotion to metaphysical
abstractions."
carlzim: After Civil War, the North turned reactionary
jutta_schmitt2002: Interesting, Franz. Very interesting, indeed.
juttafranz: Brilliant, Scott!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Another SST - Scott Schneider Theorem.
juttafranz: Continuing ....
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.
juttafranz:
In his book, The Rebel, (L'Homme révolté),
the anti-Marxist, Camus, argued that the true revolutionary is not the (wo)man
who conforms to the orthodoxy of some ideology, but a (wo)man who could say
“no” to injustice. To him, the systematic violence of ideology - the crimes
de logique that were committed in its name - seemed to be totally unjustifiable.
Nevertheless, hating violence of all calibres -- domestic, matrimonial,
fatricidal, matricidal, geocidal, genocidal, economic, political, social,
military -- Camus stated the rise of ideology -- (not of philosophy) for
example, of Stalinism, fascism, racism, etc. -- in the modern world had added
enormously to human suffering and misery.
carlzim: Franz, I have my late father's (German ancestry) view of the
French
jutta_schmitt2002: Also very valid points, those of Camus, Franz.
juttafranz: Interesting, Carl.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.
carlzim: Thanks
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - shall we tie you to the boat?
juttafranz: Carl, Don't go, please stay! Don't go!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Now, he's here to stay, Franz.
carlzim: After chat, I'll call my ISP
jutta_schmitt2002: ok
juttafranz: You remind me of a beautiful love song of the 70's!!
juttafranz: Continuing ... In nuce, Karl Popper was pleading for
capitalist “piecemeal social engineering”, and against Camus, found ideology
as something excellent, its only vice was that "it rests on a logical mistake".
In his "The Logic of Scientific Discovery (Logik der Forschung)",
he affirmed ideology, including its corresponding coercion of the State,
as follows, as "an attempt to find certainty in history and to produce predictions
on the model of what were supposed to be scientific predictions."
jutta_schmitt2002: hm
carlzim: My aunt met Camus in Paris before he commited suicide
jutta_schmitt2002: Wow, Carl.
carlzim: Looked like alcoholism.
juttafranz: Carl, your family "under the bed-sheet" met world-renowned
figures.
juttafranz:
Furthermore, "violence found eloquent champions in several black militant
writers of the 1960s, notably the Martinican theorist Frantz Fanon. Moreover,
several of the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre's dramatic writings turn
on the theme that “dirty hands” are necessary in politics and that a man
with so-called bourgeois inhibitions about bloodshed cannot usefully serve
a revolutionary cause. Sartre's attachment to the ideal of revolution tended
to increase as he grew older, and in some of his later writings he suggested
that violence might even be a good thing in itself."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109254&hook=292082#292082.hook
carlzim: Some did.
carlzim: Sartre didn't bathe.
juttafranz: Marx neither.
jutta_schmitt2002: hm
carlzim: Derrida would deconstruct everything.
juttafranz: Marx's Mom suggested that he should take soap and scrub off
all the capitalist scum peacefully from his body!!
nonpositivism: Franz, Camus's point about the corruptive influence and
enormous suffering caused by ideology is a very, very strong point which
must be seriously considered and discussed. Interestingly, the celebrated
American author Tom Wolfe opined exactly the same sentiment in an interview
I saw with him a decade ago.
juttafranz: Continuing ....
juttafranz: True, Scott. I'm nearly finish, then we could discuss this
point further.
carlzim: Agreed Scott, but the French ...
nonpositivism: i.e. that ideology is inherently intolerant, dangerous,
rigidly biased....ok, Franz. I will wait.
juttafranz: Continuing ....
In the last analysis, currently, taking Bush, Blair and Rumsfeld by their
words, globally violence is identical to "terror" and "terrorism". What they
do not explain is that ab ovo, quintessentially, capitalism, globalization,
democracy, etc., are brutal economic exploiting violence, merciless political
dominating violence, beastly social discriminating violence, genocidal global
military violence and galactic transhistoric alienating violence. We live
in a global criminal culture.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ideology is equivalent to "mental violence", Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fully agreed to that, Franz.
juttafranz:
For three and a half centuries, the Africans of South Africa fought against
colonial, neo-colonial, racist and apartheid violence. For this Mandela
and Mbeki suffered in prison and in exile; at last, the "road to freedom"
was cleared in 1989, and the avenues of non-violence against criminalty
were wide open. Now, to conclude, a decade later, how is life in free, liberated,
democratic South Africa? For the Rainbow Nation?
carlzim: In Morrocco, the French-type Socialist Party increased their
influence in the recent election
jutta_schmitt2002: Wait. Scott overboard.
iiiiriiiis: Scott is offline...
carlzim: Independent Morrocco--French?
jutta_schmitt2002: Let's wait a minute, please.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Back,
carlzim: Hu, Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: okay, continue, Franz.
nonpositivism: (thanks. Like a boxer, I need to jab and get out! haha)
juttafranz: Scott, for you, a re-post:
For three and a half centuries, the Africans of South Africa fought
against
colonial, neo-colonial, racist and apartheid violence. For this Mandela
and Mbeki suffered in prison and in exile; at last, the "road to freedom"
was cleared in 1989, and the avenues of non-violence against criminalty
were wide open. Now, to conclude, a decade later, how is life in free, liberated,
democratic South Africa? For the Rainbow Nation?
jutta_schmitt2002: Reading. Continue, please.
juttafranz:
I just quote:
"SOUTH AFRICA'S CRIMINAL CULTURE
Crime Wave: The South African Underworld and Its Foes
By Eric Pelser, who is a senior researcher in the Crime and Justice Programme
at the Institute for Security Studies in Pretoria.
Edited by Jonny Steinberg 202 pages, Johannesburg: Witwatersrand University
Press, 2001
juttafranz:
"Few people living in South Africa would be surprised that a police sergeant
drives a bright pink Volkswagen with black tinted windows because he believes
no one would want to steal it. Or that someone could be robbed of his cash,
cellphone, and handheld computer in the main Johannesburg police station.
Or that the primary suspect in a pizzeria bomb blast in Cape Town could be
arrested at a police roadblock in the company of two cops attached to an
anticorruption task force, and that the suspect would be a well-known police
informer."
juttafranz:
"Indeed, every year for the past seven years, South Africa's police have
recorded an increasing number of serious crimes, in excess of 2 million annually.
Despite the minister of safety and security's angry protestations that the
crime rate has stabilized, statistics from his own department indicate that
recorded crime in South Africa increased by 24 percent between 1994 and
2000. A quick comparison indicates the scale of the problem: Interpol reports
that in 1998 in Russia, 110 violent robberies were recorded per 100,000
people; in South Africa the number was 208."
http://www.britannica.com/magazine/article?query=%22social+violence%22&id=6&smode=2
What more is there to say? Apartheid was an appearance form of Social
Violence; now it is Reconciliatory Democracy!
jutta_schmitt2002: Sounds rather familiar though.
juttafranz: That's all for today, folks, now enjoy yourselves!!!
iiiiriiiis: Hold on a moment....reading
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for your introduction on violence, Franz. ---
Scott, can you resume your question from above, please?
jurgen784: JUTTA: THAT IS WHY IDEOLOGY FIGHT SOME TIME FINISHED ON VIOLENCE
OR TERRORISM.
nonpositivism: OK....
carlzim: Franz, thank you for the excellent introduction. For discussion
today, I offer:
Taft-Harley (anti-labor union) Act vs. Wagner (pro-labor union) Act in
USA-- Labor=alienation continues. Bush Jr. presently ordered unionized West
Coast Dock Workers not to strike and return to work, or they'll go to jail.
Apparently, since intellectual labor is the major labor exchange today, the
attitude of the elites is different compared to the bitter Dock Workers strike
in 1934:
carlzim: Proceed, Scott
iiiiriiiis: Thank you for your introduction, Franz. Proceed, Scott...
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen, right. Carl, this is yet another form
of "institutionalized violence" you are mentionting here.
jutta_schmitt2002: mentioning
gocho24: Didn't Truman veto the Taft-Harley Act? Didn't he call it a "slavery
act"?
juttafranz: proceed, Carl.
nonpositivism: Political and social Ideology seems inherently intolerant
and corruptive. Yet some degree of ideology seems useful. For example: who
would want to remove the entire legacy of Enlightenment thought on the Perfectibility
of Man, or the Renaissance spirit of man emulating G-d in Art and Philosophy,
striving for that higher level of understanding? Virtually all modern political
thinking at the core of any republican or democratic sensibility is imbued
with the Enlightenment. The trouble is when you adamantly believe that your
path, and only your path, represents "the path to Enlightenment" and all
others must be swept aside, by violence if necessary.
juttafranz: Then, Scott's Mega-Question, please!
carlzim: Red Roundup
The press, however, blamed "Reds" for
inciting violence. The drumbeat of publicity
against labor "radicals" intensified as San
Francisco workers declared their intent to call
a general strike on July 16. This was averted
when both employers and the ILA tentatively
agreed to submit to arbitration by a special
panel appointed by President Roosevelt.
The agreement, however, did not prevent further
confrontations. Police again battled strikers at
Smith Cove on July 18, and arrested five
"Communists."
juttafranz: Anybody wants to comment to scott's question, please?
nonpositivism: This also tends to happen after the Creative period of
Ideology formation. It rigidifies, builts a class of scholars and priests
or intellectuals dedicated to a point of view and shutting out others. One
can recognize this syndrome in organized religion and politics all the time.
carlzim: Thye 1934 Dock strike pertains to Scott's comment
juttafranz: Agreed, Carl. And "history repeats itself"!
iiiiriiiis: What does "imbued" denote, please? Does is mean imbedded,
related to?
nonpositivism: When it has real operative power, ideology can then be
very very dangerous because it combines power with "belief"....we see this
syndrome at work in Bush and company today.
jutta_schmitt2002: While Scott resumes, I ask the following question for
all: Why is it, that the human species, so-called "crown of creation", is
the only one that has been and is engaged in a self-annihilation process,
where violence seems to be the determining constant. Take any other species
and find, that they will, even if engaged in fighting, not come to the extreme
of killing each other's kind. Considering this remarkable "instinct", the
question is: why is it, that the sonorous human species is lacking it? -
Lack of a gene, lack of survival drive, lack of something else? - Scott, ideology
is ossified theory, "dead" theory. What is born as something authentically
new, gets known and obsolete in the course of time. Sticking to it anyway
converts it into ideology.
carlzim: Scott, development of ideology happene d in USA during Great
Depression
jutta_schmitt2002: Reading back.
juttafranz: Long ago, the machines drove the physical labourers out of
existence, now it is "modern technology" that drives even intellectual wage-slaves
out of the universe.
nonpositivism: We also see it at work in "Socialist" regimes which crushed
all dissent: from Russia to China to Cuba, etc. "Socialist realism" and that
kind of thing....
carlzim: Union Triumph
Awards included wage increases to 95
cents an hour (the workers had wanted $1 an
hour raise) for straight time and $1.50 for
overtime, a shorter week of 30 hours, and a
six hour day. Finally, the West Coast
longshore workers gained recognition
coast-wide, from Bellingham to San Diego,
as members of a single unified organization.
carlzim: Scott, and New Deal in USA in 1930's
juttafranz: Scott, did you take a Scotch today? That's why you were slightly
"late". Excellent points, Scott.
carlzim: And some Fascism in USA after 9/11
carlzim: Great points, Scott
nonpositivism: Martin Luther King in one of his last great speeches gave
a beautiful and moving oratory on the "drum major instinct" ....that instinct
in all of us which wants recognition, wanting also to subject others, dominate
others with his point of view. It's in all of us, and normal and healthy
to a degree. But when it grows out of normal proportion, it's immensely destructive.
King did lambast the USA in 1967 or 1968 when he gave this speech as the
"greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" and linked it to a perverted
"Drum major instinct" which at some level did not even recognize what ideology/power
had already corrupted in its methods.
juttafranz: Continue, Scott. March on, march on!!
jurgen784: THAT IS RIGHT FRANZ ,A KIND OF VIOLENCE STEROTYPE AS GOOD BY
THE GOVERMENTS IN NEME OF THE STATES AND THE OTHER STEREOTYPE AS BAD LIKE
FUNDAMENTALIST GROUP OR GUERRILLAS (ALL THEN QUALIFY IN A LIST BY THE STATES
AS TERRORIST) GROUP
carlzim: After chat, see photos of Bzerzinski and Bin Laden in 1980's:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/soldasi/instant/rants.html
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/soldasi/instant/halloween.html
carlzim: Bin Laden shows Brzezinski how to use weapon
juttafranz: Juergen, soon, even you and I will be "classified" as violent
terrorists, I, as professor, violently seducing the pretty youth of Venezuela,
and you, as a terrorist member of my Al Qaeda philosophy class.
nonpositivism: However, I think very bluntly that King's diagnosis is
obsolete. At this point, most inside the Bush Circle know exactly what they
are doing. The ideology is less important. Bush is the figurehead spouting
the often archaic religious and political philosophy for mass consumption,
but the "power elite" (to use C. Wright Mills famous phrase) don't even feel
the need for much doublespeak. In this case, the USA is acting more like
Rome...more openly cynical and oppressive.
jutta_schmitt2002: Good points made by all here. Excellent illustration
of labour-related violence, Carl, excellent observations with regard to
ideology, Scott. Sharp observation on the violence implemented by stereotype
classifications, Jürgen.
juttafranz: Guys, what happened? You are all in form, not informed, excellent
exformation!
jutta_schmitt2002: Why, in your opinion, the scenario you described above
with regard to the ever more cynical openness of the power elites, seems
to be working without obstacles, and find a rather broad acceptance?
jutta_schmitt2002: (Question to Scott)
juttafranz: Itris, you like my lines above? My violent ex-pressions
nonpositivism: Jutta, I think mass communications has a dulling effect
and makes people feel impotent as they get barraged by apparent juggernaut
of random international events over which they have no control and need "official
spokesmen" or "experts" to interpret their world view. Data Smog.
carlzim: You may recall that previously I mentioned that one main reason
why the USA attacked Iraq in 1991, and has continued to attack Iraq thereafter
has been to prevent a Russia-Iraq weapons/oil refinement deal that would
enable Russia to pay off its IMF loans. This is verified by this week's NY
Times article (see following excerpts). The USA wants Russia to be economically
weak. However, the West will help Russia modernize its military to maintain
military dominance in ex-USSR Central Asia and resist China's encroachment
in the region, and agree to a share of the West in Caspian oil. Russia will
need money to pay the West for military modernization. Both Russia and the
West want economically weak Central Asian ex-USSR countries to exploit their
resources. It gets complicated.
Mark Bzerzinski i
carlzim: By MARK BRZEZINSKI
[W]ASHINGTON - At last week's meeting of the five permanent members of
the United Nations Security Council, the Russian delegation insisted
that the terms of reference for arms inspection in Iraq already provide
adequate legal basis for access to relevant sites. The Russians believe
that negotiation of a new resolution would only delay further the return
of the inspectors. They have in private questioned the validity of the
Bush administration's assertion that Iraq is stockpiling weapons of mass
destruction.
carlzim: What is driving Russia's actions at the United Nations? Self
interest, of
course. Iraq owes Russia about $8 billion on loans dating back to the
Soviet era; Russia fears the debts will be renounced if there is regime
change. Private contracts benefiting Russian oil companies are in place.
carlzim: Under the United Nations' oil-for-food program, Russian contractors
have
been by far the biggest beneficiaries. Forty percent of Iraqi oil traded
under the program is sold via Russian intermediaries. Considering the
dismal state of Russia's economy, the $1 billion a year Russia gains from
the program is alone an important motivating factor.
jutta_schmitt2002: Is it not also due to an institutionalized, ever refined
"culture of violence", where from the government (Ari Fleischer: one bullet
( in the head of Saddam Hussein) would be more cost effectively than a war)
to the kids in front of the sick videogames violence is about the only expression
of life?
carlzim: First, Russia wants clear guarantees that its economic interests
in Iraq
will be protected (this means guarantees on debt payment and giving
Russian oil interests a big stake in a post-Hussein Iraq). Second, Russia
would love an unfettered right to intervene in Georgia against Chechen
rebels.
juttafranz: They are ex-pressed in the violent tradition of sorel, with
passion. Any further comments, Iris? Any Ex-odus from slavery in Egypt,
from pharoahs, from slave-masters?
carlzim:
Third, Russia wants normal trade relations with the United States,
which would require that the Jackson-Vanik trade restrictions be lifted.
The administration may indeed try to strike a bargain on the first demand,
while the second would be an unwise and dangerous proposition in terms
of
the larger interests of the international system.
juttafranz: I'm reading, Carl.
nonpositivism: Jutta, you must go back to McLuhan. The medium is the message.
The sheer multiplication of images without any apparent focus, order or (our
kind!) of interpretive editorial induces a mildly hypnotic "trance" which
has a hangover effect like alcohol. (Have you ever tried to pull someone
away from a video game, or from the latest "hot local news" of crime and gore?)
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, summing up your observations: They testify institutionalized
violence on a global scale - economic, financial, military and social violence.
carlzim: The last problem the
administration can do only so much about, since it is Congress that must
act. The Jackson-Vanik amendment was imposed in 1974 to punish the Soviet
Union for not allowing free emigration. President Bush has asked Congress
to scrap the law but so far little progress has been made.
carlzim: Saddam, like Chavez, is a pawn of the global oilk elites
carlzim: Yep, Jutta
juttafranz: Well, Scott, I tried to pull you out of the Yahoo Chat, of
no avail! You are more adamant than a diamond!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Has anybody of you, has Ari Fleischer, has Bush witnessed
what exactly happens when a bullet hits the forefront of a human head? Have
they seen and lived the impact of the violence they are proposing in order
to eliminate presidents of foreign countries?
nonpositivism: Therefore in some interesting unintended consequence, instantaneous
mass global communication is actually isolating and distancing people from
each other, even within their own cities and towns! It actually is dumbing
down everyone - the information set is huge, but horizontal and superficial,
often deliberately so for commercial reasons and for not-so-subtle thought
control. Very little depth of discussion, incisive analysis. Ignorance is
Strength. And Ignorance grows in proportion to Mass Communication!
juttafranz: ]Especially from playing global "chess", i could not "check-mate"
you, Scott. You are our Kasparov!!
nonpositivism: haha, thanks Franz, You all should take some credit for
keeping my debate and propaganda skills sharp!
jutta_schmitt2002: What does it take to pervert the so dearly held "humanness"
into something beyond the animal realm?! What massive conditioning does it
take, how many decades, centuries, millennia of violence and perversion?
juttafranz: Yes, Scott, Ignorance is not Bliss anymore, it is Strength!
nonpositivism: Jutta, America's war cabinet is full of chickenhawks like
Bush, Cheney and Fleisher who never saw a shot fired in combat, never went
near it.
carlzim: S addam is dedicated to violence
carlzim: S addam
nonpositivism: Those who never experienced war love the idea of war the
most.
carlzim: Saddam
juttafranz: Hence, Scott, they do not have the right to ask any questions
whatsoever!
carlzim: Move over "Man de La Mancha." "Man of Tikrit" may come to Broadway.
IMHO, Saddam Hussein should resign as President of Iraq and become a Broadway
musical writer/producer (LOL). Who do you think should play Saddam in the
musical? See excerpts from article, as follows"
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/08/opinion/08KRIS.html?pagewanted=print&position=top
NY TIMES
October 8, 2002
An Iraqi Man of Letters
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
[T]IKRIT, Iraq - Iraq's best-selling novelist is also a poet who enjoys
strumming the lute and is passionate about Hemingway. He is a patron
of the arts, with a fine appreciation for modern painting, sculpture and
architecture.
carlzim:
And if any book critic were rash enough to pan his novels, he would have
the offender's tongue cut out and his entire family beaten to death.
Afterward he might write a poem extolling the massacre.
carlzim: That's Saddam Hussein for you. Usually amiable in person, he
always tried
to make quality time for his boys Uday and Qusay - taking them to a
concert, or else toughening them up by taking them to prison to watch
people being tortured.
carlzim: I started my quest for the nuanced Saddam in the northern city
of Tikrit,
where he grew up. Saddam has elevated fellow Tikritis - especially
relatives - to top positions in the army and government. That's one reason
to be skeptical that an American invasion will trigger a coup: Many of
the
people in a position to mount one are Tikritis or even family members
(internal security is controlled by Qusay), and when Saddam is finished,
so are they.
carlzim: Saddam rules like a Tikriti sheik, and even within his clan the
rivalries
are ferocious. The Ibrahim branch of his family battles the Al-Majid
branch, and disputes among his wives (he is believed to have three) have
resulted in murders.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott - I think it entirely depends on the degree of
brain conditioning (or should I say brain commercializing?), and on the
level of de-naturalization and de-socialization, on the overall militarization
of the mind and body (check our your body-exercizing programmes on TV and
note the agressive positions, movements and postures taken!)
juttafranz: Scott, before the cowboys first shot, then asked questions,
now "America's war cabinet is full of chickenhawks" are just "trigger-happy".
carlzim:
His first novel was published in 2001, and he has dashed off two more
since then. In each case the author is officially anonymous, though
everyone knows who wrote them.
"Writing is his hobby," said Sami Abdel Hamid, who directed a play made
from Saddam's first novel. "He likes literature, he likes poetry.
carlzim: The first novel, "Zabiba and the King," concerns a heroic Saddam-like
king, a woman named Zabiba who symbolizes the Iraqi people, and a
tyrannical man who represents America - and rapes Zabiba. The second
novel, "Walled Fortress," describes a hero who defends Iraq against enemy
attackers.
nonpositivism: Jutta, it doesn't have to be military. It can be purely
personal. Keep people focused on Sex, Lies and Videotape. That works best.
carlzim: "
"It emphasizes that Iraq will be the cemetery of invaders," explained
Hazim Suleiman Al-Nassir, an eminent Iraqi philosopher who is an expert
on
the president's books.
carlzim: Agreed, Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: Better even - after the spokesperson for the White
House, and the defence and justice ministers have been relentlessly propagating
violence, the whole of American society is in deep awe with regard to some
"maniacs" that go on a shooting spree and kill at their pleasure, maniacs,
that are the perfect product of the ongoing war and violence propaganda machine.
juttafranz: You still call that "people", Scott? They must be sexmaniacs
or robots with "flex appeal".
nonpositivism: I quote from pop star John Lennon's famous 1970 song, "Keep
you doped with religion, sex and TV... but you're still f...ing peasants
as far as I can see".
nonpositivism: Jutta, it's simply the least common denominator of infotainment.
Since the early 90's deterioration of local news and then with the OJ Simpson
case, it has plunged even lower. It's all about Ratings, Advertising, Profits
and dumbing the people down.
iiiiriiiis: You are too fast for me today, guys. Anyway, Data Smog - interesting
point you mentioned, above, Scott. There is actually a problem which we discussed
here, too, which has to do with the seemingly not-related, atomized data
and so called "facts" which are reported day by day e.g. by the media (apart
of the carefully tuned disinformation on certain issues - as was and is the
case concerning the coverage on the 11-04 events in Venezuela for instance),
in the news, and also the data smog and "information" or "knowledge" which
is of course merely to be accumulated in a static manner e.g. in the education
process. The problem of "data smog" even consists in that many a so called
"expert" turns out to not to be able to relate to a wider range all the
vast data (s)he supposedly knows.
jutta_schmitt2002: The conditioning - of minds and bodies - is so massive,
so constant, so relentless, that the worst atrocities can be commited and
find applause by the "educated, civilized public".
carlzim: The hymn "Give me that old time religion..."
juttafranz: Scott, and you still doubt all that we said about "mind control"
and "global fascism" in the USA, in your "home land"?
nonpositivism: totally agreed, Iris. "Data smog" is worth a Conference
all by itself. A very serious problem.
carlzim: Franz, USA? UK too. Adding Tony Blair's recent comment:
PM: 'We regard Russia as our partner'
In an interview with BBC World Service today, the Prime Minister Tony
Blair said:
we regard Russia very much as our partner in this issue and I am hopeful
that we can resolve it in such a way that we meet the concerns of everybody.
And those concerns are to make sure that Iraq develops free from the threat
of chemical and biological and potentially nuclear weapons, that the United
Nations' will is done, and that we manage to ensure that the disarmament
of Iraq of all these weapons takes place.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page6250.asp
carlzim: Brainwashing
nonpositivism: Franz, I don't doubt it. It's just more obvious than you
and Carl think. You don't need MKUltra, you need advertising geniuses on
Madison Avenue. You need Hollywood (which Goebbels much admired by the way).
juttafranz: Then, what "sacred" is left around the "Statue of Liberty"
and the Dollar, that trusts in God, Scott & Carl? Where are the true
Americans? I just see a few Pandemonium Americans.
nonpositivism: And believe me, America can sell things and ideas for mass
consumption better than any country in the history of the world. By far.
Modern public relations was invented here. And we are the best at it.
carlzim: Why were USA marines training without weapons in Kuwait? Sitting
ducks
nonpositivism: Watch out, Franz! Or I will sell you the shirt off your
back if you're not careful!
jutta_schmitt2002: My call is: come to Venezuela (or the so-called third
world for that matter), learn about the dire needs of the majority of people,
and about their desperate struggle to better their conditions and who cannot
possibly be kept alive by infotainment!
carlzim: Scott, MKULTRA orchestrates "wet" operations (assassinations)
in USA and globally
carlzim: Works with CIA in USA, GRU in Russia, etc
jurgen784: FRANZ ,WHAT ABOUT WHEN SOME OF THIS GOUPS MIX IDEOLOGYCAL IDEAS
WITH RELIGIUS IDEAS IN THEIR FIGHT (LIKE THE PARTY OF GOD) EVEN WITH RELIGIUS
IDEAS THEY CULD NOT STOP THE VIOLENCE.
nonpositivism: Franz et al., for your daily dose of true dissenting Americans
go to commondreams.org AND www.tompaine.com...that's your reminder that you
are not alone!
juttafranz: Well, Scott, those who go on a shopping spree. to the Information
Global Market, should enjoy those ideas, for example, the Bin Laden myth,
but you and I do not buy that -- so where's the problem? Do we want to close
down their Idea Market? And then, what would happen ... remember: "the universe
is a madhouse".
carlzim: Jurgen, Hizbollah=LTRA
nonpositivism: sorry, those sites were: www.commondreams.org and www.tompaine.com
carlzim: =MKULTRA
jutta_schmitt2002: Worse even, Jürgen - mixing ideology with religious
ideas promotes violence! Consult Scott about Bush and the revival of the
radical-orthodox-Christian doctrine of "an eye for an eye".
juttafranz: IIIrrriiiisss!!! Still around???
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, I'm already a regular visitor to commondreams.org.
jutta_schmitt2002: Will certainly check out the tompaine.com site
nonpositivism: Jutta, we know they can't be kept alive by infotainment.
But most North Americans have not the slightest idea these problems even
exist, and don't really want to be bothered. 1/10 of us are unemployed these
days. That's our focus.
iiiiriiiis: Sure, Franz!
carlzim: Hizbollah-=Iran substituted power of Islamic Shiites for Sunnis
in S. Lebanon
juttafranz: Yes, Scott, common dreams drove Martin luther's
carlzim: Divide & conquer
jutta_schmitt2002: Ditto, Scott, that is part of the keep-people-in-ignorance-recipy.
juttafranz: ... "I have a dream", already out of my head.
juttafranz: Juergen, coming to your top question. ....
juttafranz: The problem here in Venezuela is very special.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Let's get Iris back onboard.
juttafranz: After centuries of religious Roman Catholic indoctrination,
that rationalized Church-State social violence, the problem was how to appeal
to the masses?
jutta_schmitt2002: Please somebody invite Iris back. I did not succeed.
juttafranz: Hence, Chavez & others had to find some way to grasp the
imagination of the masses, so that "theory" could become "concrete", become
"material", become praxis.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
juttafranz: They had no choice but to mix Roman Catholicism with a modernized
ideology of Bolivarianism, with a magic touch of populism.
jutta_schmitt2002: There she is.
carlzim: Hi, Iris
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Jutta.
carlzim: Franz, like Peron in Argentina
juttafranz: They were "right", they swept the masses away from the traditional
political parties, and were swept into power.
carlzim: Luz y Fuerza
juttafranz: However, this opium, like all opiates, do not work forever,
it changes into strychnine; the problem is now, how to keep the masses aboard,
well, modern education is the solution.
juttafranz: that's why Chavez had to cut the military budget, and increase
the endowment for education to nearly 15% of the whole national budget. Something
unique in the world of today.
jutta_schmitt2002: Those elements in christian religion, that had originally
been the arms of the oppressed, are being revived and used by Chávez,
Franz and Jürgen: What more revolutionary than true, social justice?
What more revolutionary than true solidarity? What more revolutionary than
chasing the usuaries out of the temple? What more revolutionary than the
sword (=emancipatory violence), that Jesus would bring and the fire he would
light in order to sweep away with injustice and oppression?!
jutta_schmitt2002: This is a language that the oppressed, the wretched
of the earth understand until today.
juttafranz: Now, it only depends on how you are going to educate a mind,
a mentality, that is still sticking in the Inquisition, on the roasting,
burning stake of witches?
juttafranz: Is that understood, Juergen?
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, here it is: "Luces" y Moral. The lights, the
enlightenment that Bolívar showed.
juttafranz: iris, you missed myanswer to Juergen; I will re-post it for
you!!
iiiiriiiis: Please do so, Franz.
carlzim: -- The U.S. House of Representatives approves resolution giving
President Bush authority to use force against Iraq
carlzim: CNN breaking news
carlzim: Fuerza y luz
nonpositivism: Franz, thanks for a great exposition of the political psychology
within Venezuela and the forces which catapulted Chavez to power. This kind
of "Christian populism" may once have resonated in North America, but no
longer.
iiiiriiiis: I suspect I don't receive all of your postings here, freinds!
nonpositivism: I'm reminded of the film "Romero" with Raul Julia about
the ill-fated cleric in El Salvador. Do you remember it, remember Romero,
people?
juttafranz: So, Iris, here comes the re-post for you!!
carlzim: -- The U.S. House of Representatives approves resolution giving
President Bush authority to use force against Iraq
juttafranz: Juergen, coming to your top question. ....
The problem here in Venezuela is very special.
After centuries of religious Roman Catholic indoctrination, that rationalized
Church-State social violence, the problem was how to appeal to the masses?
Hence, Chavez & others had to find some way to grasp the imagination
of the masses, so that "theory" could become "concrete",
They had no choice but to mix Roman Catholicism with a modernized ideology
of Bolivarianism, with a magic touch of populism.
They were "right", they swept the masses away from the traditional political
parties, and were swept into power.
However, this opium, like all opiates, do not work forever, it changes
into strychnine; the problem is now, how to keep the masses aboard, well,
modern education is the solution.
juttafranz: That's why Chavez had to cut the military budget, and increase
the endowment for education to nearly 15% of the whole national budget. Something
unique in the world of today.
Now, it only depends on how you are going to educate a mind, a mentality,
that is still sticking in the Inquisition, on the roasting, burning stake
of witches?
juttafranz: Is that understood, Juergen?
juttafranz: That was it, Iris!!
carlzim: Iris CNN breaking news
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl - please comment.
nonpositivism: Iris, et al: for those not as familiar with the US System,
this "Standby force authorization" tantamount to semi-permanent war declaration
still must pass the US Senate. Expect folks like Srn. Byrd from VA and even
some Republicans to show much more resistance. Constitutional integrity is
at stake. Article I, Section 8. It may fail in the Senate, and will be hotly
debated.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: iiiiriiiis has joined the conference.
nonpositivism: Iris, in case you did not receive, I will repost:
nonpositivism: Iris, et al: for those not as familiar with the US System,
this "Standby force authorization" tantamount to semi-permanent war declaration
still must pass the US Senate. Expect folks like Srn. Byrd from VA and even
some Republicans to show much more resistance. Constitutional integrity is
at stake. Article I, Section 8. It may fail in the Senate, and will be hotly
debated.
jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry guys, I have to take a ten minutes break here
and shift the car. Construction works going on outside. Please excuse me.
jutta_schmitt2002: (The Leonid, for insiders. )
iiiiriiiis: Thank you Franz.
juttafranz: Iris, where are you -- leaving a n d not leaving/
nonpositivism: A great, great deal is at stake in the US War resolution
Senatorial debate upcoming.
juttafranz: Did you get my re-post???
juttafranz: Iris, aboutVenezuelan "ideology"?
nonpositivism: It has direct applicability to Venezuela, any areas the
War Cabinet deems are "hot spots" requiring unilateral pre-emptive strike.
It's a frontal assault on the Constitution by Chancellor Cheney and friends.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, now I received it, Franz. Thanks again. Excellent remark
on the underlying problem and prospects!
juttafranz: OK!
nonpositivism: Here's my original quote of the day - remind me to repost
for Jutta later:
iiiiriiiis: Scott: Thanks for reposting, too!
nonpositivism: The Chinese believe in Communism as much as America believes
in the Free Market.
nonpositivism: Sometimes ideology is immensely corruptive and intolerant,
sometimes it is mere empty sloganeering.
juttafranz: Yes, Scott, they both "believe", "believe in" all that, that's
why the "Happy Hunting Grounds" will never fade into oblivion.
nonpositivism: In case it's not clear, What I meant, Franz, is that the
elites do not seriously believe their public ideologies. Not one iota.
carlzim: My paternal grandparents immigrated from Lemburg (now Lviv) in
Western Ukraine to USA in early 1900's. They were Galizianer Jews. During
WW2, the Galician Division of the SS originated there. In Chemistry lab
at in 1950's, my lab partner, a Ukrainian immigrant and member of the Ukrainian
Students Society(USS) showed me a photo of his brother in SS uniform who
he said died fighting the Russians in WW2. Recently, I found that the USS
was filled with KGB agents.
NATO exercises starting in L'viv region
08.10 | 09.45 Volia
NATO and its partner-countries have started military exercised called
"Cooperative Adventure Exchange 2002" at the Yavoriv training
center in Lviv region.
iiiiriiiis: Agreed, Scott, not even the Pope does.
nonpositivism: I think decades ago each had a lot more ideological rigidity
or "purity" if you will. Now it's all about power politics without even the
pretense of ideology.
juttafranz: Hunting is Violence, Terror, Terrorism, to get back to our
main theme again, whether it is Blair fox-hunting, Spanish "bull-hunting",
or Bush "man-hunting", Bin Laden-Hunting!!
carlzim: The opening ceremony of the exercise was held on Monday, Ukrainian
News
informs referring to the press information center for the exercises.
Military personnel from twelve NATO nations; Belgium, Czech Republic,
Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, Turkey,
United Kingdom, and the United States of America and from six NATO
partner-nations; Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Georgia, Moldova, Macedonia, and
Ukraine are participating in the exercises.
carlzim:
In total, 3,000 military personnel, 27 armored vehicles, 5 Mi-8
helicopters, and 4 UH-1 helicopters are participating.
The Ukrainian Defense Ministry reports that the aim of the exercises is
to
improve the interoperability of Allied Command Europe Mobile Forces with
other headquarters and units from NATO and the nations participating in
the Partnership for Peace program.
carlzim: The exercises will include live fire exercises, field training
and command
post training, integrating infantry, reconnaissance troops, artillery,
engineers, helicopters, aircraft and logistics elements. The exercises
will end on October 18.
juttafranz: We have not left mentally the stage of "hunting", that's what
homo homini lupus essentially is: a man-hunter!
carlzim: Partnership for Peace?
juttafranz: Carl, War (Man-Hunting, Bin Laden-Hunting) is Peace, Infinite
Justice.
carlzim: Yep, Franz
juttafranz: Scott, surely will not agree with us, Carl.
juttafranz: Scott, any brain wave about Man-Hunting?
juttafranz: Scott, dig up some Sheldon Bones Theory, please.
juttafranz: Come on, don't be afraid, make no bones about it.
juttafranz: Folks, it seems that Scott went for another Scotch again.
iiiiriiiis: ) Franz.
carlzim: CNN:
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/ns/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1152&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20021010%2F065050456.htm&sc=1152&s=0&n=25
FBI Warns of Possible U.S. Attack
WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI is warning state and local authorities
that recent taped statements by al-Qaida leaders may signal that
another attack on the United States has been approved.
carlzim: The agency said Wednesday, however, that the nationwide alert
level
remains code yellow - ``significant risk'' - because officials do not
have any
specific information detailing where and when an attack may occur. Yellow
is
the third-highest of five threat levels.
In an audio taped message that aired Sunday on the Arab satellite TV
station al-Jazeera, a voice believed to be that of Osama bin Laden refers
to
al-Qaida ``targeting key sectors of the U.S. economy,'' the FBI noted.
carlzim:
Bin Laden's senior deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, repeated the threat in
another audio taped interview obtained Tuesday.
``The group's leaders have said that they aim to undermine what they see
as the backbone of U.S. power, the economy,'' the FBI said in a statement.
The FBI said its concerns were heightened by comments from al-Qaida
detainees who interpreted the taped remarks as a sign of an attack.
carlzim:
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said earlier in the day information
on
the Al-Zawahir recording would be shared with law enforcement officers
but
would not prompt the government to raise the threat level.
The FBI urged law enforcement agencies to take extra precautions to
``detect, disrupt, deter, and defend against potential attacks'' against
the
nation, at home and abroad.
10/10/02 06:50
juttafranz: Exformative, Carl.
carlzim: Yep, Franz
jutta_schmitt2002: Back. - Eyescanned back. Carl: the continuous announcements
of "another attack" on the USA is part of a carefully orchestrated,psychological
warfare against the American population in order to manipulate people's votes
in favour for the Republicans, that is, the Bush Junta.
carlzim: Agreed, Jutta
carlzim: Bush Jr.'s junta
jutta_schmitt2002: Psychological violence, with devastating, destabilizing
effects on peoples' already pro-war conditioned minds.
iiiiriiiis: Jutta, can you repost your comment please, I did not receive
it here. Thanks.
jutta_schmitt2002: ok: Back. - Eyescanned back. Carl: the continuous announcements
of "another attack" on the USA is part of a carefully orchestrated,psychological
warfare against the American population in order to manipulate people's votes
in favour for the Republicans, that is, the Bush Junta.
carlzim: Agreed, Jutta
carlzim: Bush Jr.'s junta
jutta_schmitt2002: Psychological violence, with devastating, destabilizing
effects on peoples' already pro-war conditioned minds.
juttafranz: Carl, soon the military coup will be complete in the USA --
just a few more votes in Congress would do it -- but millions of Americans
don't see, don't know this.
juttafranz: All four powers will be under control, and therewith die
ganze Welt. ....
nonpositivism: folks, must get back to work here.....thanks very much
for an enjoyable, informative and exformative discussion.
jutta_schmitt2002: Unelected President Bush gives green light to about
each and every means available in order to intimidate, irritate and frighten
the American population into accepting whatever means the Bush Junta deems
necessary in order to pursue their coroporate-driven, geostrategic aims on
the foreign policy hand, and totalitarian goals on the domestic policy hand
(= the shreddering of the civil liberties).
jutta_schmitt2002: Sorry to see you leave, Scott.
juttafranz: Enjoyed the Scotch, Scott, just read back, please .....
carlzim: Und die ganze Internet
jutta_schmitt2002: Und morgen das ganze Internet, Carl!
jutta_schmitt2002: Your service provider is watching you!
carlzim: Yep, Franz
iiiiriiiis: See you in our next Thursday's chat, Scott!
jutta_schmitt2002: Perhaps you are already on the list of "suspected terrorists"
for having spoken about the Bush Junta, Carl. Enjoy Guantánamo!
jurgen784: JUTTA MAY BE TO GET ALL THE CONTROL OF THEIR SOCIETY AND OF
COURSE, THE SUPPORT OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMUNITY TOO.
carlzim: Glad you joined, Scott. Keep in touch
carlzim: Jurgen, globalization
juttafranz: Bye, Scott -- you'll get the script just now ....
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen, as for the support of the "international
community", I consider this a myth. Why? Because the "international community",
in the last analysis, consists of economies or economic blocks that are in
rivalry, that are competitors on the world market. There is no homogeneous
"international community" - it consists of defined, hard, economic and financial
interests, that will inevitably clash.
carlzim: Jurgen, after chat, visit:
http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/bilders.html
BILBERBERG GROUP
SECRET MINUTES REVEALED
by David Icke
--------------------------------------------------------------
The British publication, The Big Issue, which is sold
on the streets by unemployed people, claims to have
been leaked minutes from this year's meeting of the
Bilderberg Group which took place in Portugal.
iiiiriiiis: Can anybody please repost for me Jürgens's comment, it
did not arrive here, either.
juttafranz: Folks, is Jesus still around?
juttafranz: Or must we await his "Second Coming"?
jutta_schmitt2002: For Iris, Jürgen said: "jurgen784: JUTTA MAY BE
TO GET ALL THE CONTROL OF THEIR SOCIETY AND OF COURSE, THE SUPPORT OF THE
INTERNATIONAL COMUNITY TOO."
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue with the Bilderberg Group, Carl.
iiiiriiiis: Thank you, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús! Dónde éstas?
juttafranz: Anybody seen Jesus?
jutta_schmitt2002: Te estamos esperando!
juttafranz: Or did he say Bye already, or did we forget to re-invite him?
jutta_schmitt2002: Don't be shy, Jesús. We need your comments,
inputs, observations.
carlzim: Jutta, Bilderberg group=global elites. I'm asking all to vist
the Bilderberg site after chat.
juttafranz: What a faith we have in Jesus ....
carlzim: After chat, visit Spy Museum's web site at:
http://www.spymuseum.org/index.asp
jutta_schmitt2002: I definitely will, Carl. I remember that Jeff provided
quite a lot of information and sites with regard to the Bilderberg Group.
juttafranz: Nearer, nearer, my Jesus to thee ....
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has left the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.
Saying Bye !!!
iiiiriiiis: He is not listed on my screen here, Franz, - and I did not
see him leaving or saying Bye... - Thanks for the url, Carl, I will visit
the site later on.
juttafranz: Well, I'm stunned, Jesus has left, Jesus has joined! Blessed
is the Name of Jesus!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Friends, as I have had quite a sleepless night last
night and only got some hours of rest, my concentration is weakening here.
I will therefore say goodbye for this afternoon, keep an eye on events in
Caracas and will keep you informed if anything unexpected should happen here.
juttafranz: Me too -- we sat up till 12.00 midnight, awaiting the golpe!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Jesús, have you been following news about Venezuela
over there in Florida?
jutta_schmitt2002: Do you keep up tight contact with family and friends
here?
juttafranz: But, before we go, who will introduce the next chat?
carlzim: After chat, listen to Russian music:
jurgen784: THANK YOU BY THE URL ,SURE I WILL CHECK AFTER CARL.
juttafranz: How about you Juergen?
juttafranz: Do you have a special topic in mind?
jutta_schmitt2002: We'll think of a topic and consult with the crew as
soon as possible, Franz.
juttafranz: You could write something in English, and I could correct
it for you to post.
carlzim: http://russia-in-us.com/Music/
juttafranz: Write it in Spanish, go to altavista, translate it, then we
correct that text, or do you prefer to do it later?
juttafranz: Any suggestions??
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, Jürgen is a very occupied student, and
may not have the necessary time and energy. I simply suggest he attends
next Thursday's Chat, and we think of an introduction, as usual.
juttafranz: If we don't, then the Evergreen has to do it again!
jutta_schmitt2002: I can help you, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002:
carlzim: Also:http://russia-in-us.com/Music/Pop/Utesov/utesoveng.html
juttafranz: Well, Jutta helps those who help themselves!!
juttafranz: Ex-cellent, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, you are a real transcultural creativist!
juttafranz: Carl, greetings to fran from us!
juttafranz: All thanks for assisting, I had fun.
juttafranz: Bye, folks.
jutta_schmitt2002: Unfortunately, I lack the necessary plug-ins and programmes
in order to listen to online music. Very problematic.
iiiiriiiis: Alright, then I suggest we continue next Thursday. Quite an
high-speed chat we had today, friends, I missed many a comment. Franz, please
send me the script.
carlzim: And: http://russia-in-us.com/Music/Collections/Ofman/russianestrada/
carlzim: Folks, I nenjoyed the chat. Fran sends regards to all
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all - It has been fun! Thanks for the urls, Carl.
And keep the exformation coming. I always enjoy reading the articles and
comments you send.
carlzim: I enjoyed\
carlzim: I enjoyed
jurgen784: CINCERELLY , THE GLOBALIZATION IS CHANGING MY MIND , AND BEST
THING I CAN DO IS EDUACTE IT AND KNOW IT TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD
juttafranz: I'll send the ms. off just now.
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen: exactly!
juttafranz: then Iris, with tea, by candlelight, could read everything
again.
jutta_schmitt2002: That is "the spirit"!
carlzim: Good point, Jurgen
juttafranz: B
iiiiriiiis: Thanks, Franz.
juttafranz: Thanks, Juergen.
carlzim: Bye, folks
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has left the conference.
juttafranz: Bye!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Jürgen: feel free to join us anytime in our chats.
Looking forward to seeing you again in classes. Bye all.
iiiiriiiis: So, bye bye and until next week, Carl, Juergen, Jesús,
Jutta and Franz! Taketh care all!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all - bye Jesús! The invisible man today.
juttafranz: Bye!! All!!
iiiiriiiis: Buenas Noches!
jutta_schmitt2002: Take care all! Best wishes for all your dreams
and endeavours (and duties).
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has left the conference.
jurgen784: CULTURE IN THE ERA OF GLOBALIZATION COULD BE THIS ONE, FRANZ.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
jurgen784: BYE, EVERYBODY.
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