PLEASE NOTE:

          Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
          Greetings,  it would take hours and hours to edit this
          particular manuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
          "time" to correct everything. To revise our over 150 chats,

         Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
         the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
         cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
         are not perfect scientific treatises. However, as you would
         notice our debates are stringently scientific and philosophic.

SAYING  HI!

nonpositivism: Please be advised my input may be limited today; I will be mostly in an
observer role because of very hectic schedule here.
carlzim: Hi, Franz, Jutta, Stella, Iris
naranjahit2002: Hi All!
juttafranz: HI! All!!!  WELCOME BACK, IRIS -- OUR FRESHLY BAKED  "MAGISTER ARTIUM"
IN SOCIOLOGY!!!
iiiiriiiis: Hi All!
carlzim: Hi, Scott
iiiiriiiis: Franz du Hirsch!!
naranjahit2002: *Felicidades* =D>
iiiiriiiis: StellaStella!
juttafranz: NNNGGGGGWWWEEE!!!!   MY EARS!!!
carlzim: Where's Jutta?
iiiiriiiis: Indeed, soon, Franz ;)
nonpositivism: Hello Stella and Iris. Long time, no cyber-speak................glad you could
make it.
juttafranz: Just wait, Jutta still has problems!!!
carlzim: OK, Franz.
iiiiriiiis: It's a pleasure, Scott, Carl, Stella, Jutta and Franz! - Okay, let's wait - I don't
read Jutta here...
juttafranz: Jutta must log out -- I will invite her again!
carlzim: Iris & Stella, how are your university studies?
carlzim: OK, Franz.
iiiiriiiis: Done, Carl ;)
naranjahit2002: I still have to deal with them Carl.
iiiiriiiis: It's over, FINALLY!
juttafranz: LIKE THIS, CARL: HI! All!!! WELCOME BACK, IRIS -- OUR FRESHLY BAKED "MAGISTER ARTIUM" IN SOCIOLOGY!!!
carlzim: Excellent!
iiiiriiiis: I just can say... it seems they give a grade to about anybody these days, Carl :)))
juttafranz: A FEW MINUTES MORE, PLEASE!
carlzim: Iris, what was your main topic?
carlzim: OK, Franz.
juttafranz: Hi! Jutta!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello all.
naranjahit2002: Hi, Jutta.
carlzim: Hi, Jutta
juttafranz: Well, can we begin? Please save chat!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Yahoo Conference has not yet even started and there are loads of
troubles already. Hi Franz, Stella, Carl, Iris, Scott. Please start.
naranjahit2002: Yes we will Franz.
iiiiriiiis: One of the main topics.... Comparative Politics, Carl.
carlzim: Proceed, Franz
iiiiriiiis: Jutta mi pana, glad you made it.

THE INTRODUCTION

juttafranz: ERICH FROMM:  CONCERNED KNOWLEDGE
ABOUT BEYOND THE CHAINS OF ILLUSION,
AND THE FEAR OF FREEDOM

By  Franz J. T. Lee

December 5, 2002
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris, nice to have you back with us again, mi pana.
juttafranz: Erich Fromm,  the German-born U.S. psychoanalyst and social philosopher,
was born on March 23, 1900 in  Frankfurt am Main, and died on March 18, 1980, in
Muralto, Switzerland. Relating patrian psychology and society, he believed that
psychoanalytic principles could remedy cultural ills, that "mankind" could develop a psychologically balanced “sane society.”
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.
juttafranz: Having studied and been trained at the Universities of Heidelberg and
Munich, he began practicing psychoanalysis as a disciple of Sigmund Freud, whom he
later criticized of ignoring societal factors in human psychology.
iiiiriiiis: Proceed, Franz...
juttafranz: Fromm was of the opinion, that an individual's personality was the product
of his culture as well as his biology. Of course, after 1933, fleeing from Nazi oppression,
in the USA, lecturing at various universities, his US orthodox Freudian psychoanalytic
colleagues were not quite fascinated by such revolutionary ideas. However, according
to Fromm, in a world of antagonistic social classes, the understanding of basic human
needs is quintessential to the understanding of human society, and of (ruling class) Man
and of (ruled class) Man themselves. In this way, philosophically, Fromm was profoundly influenced by Freud and Marx.
jutta_schmitt2002: True, Franz, and he stated that there were some basic principles
operative in both theories - that of Freud and that of Marx, which he called the
"principle of doubt", the "principle of humanity" (nothing humane is alien to me), and
the religious principle of "the truth shall make ye free". - These are the three factors
that Fromm sees operative in both, Freud and Marx.
juttafranz: Fine, Jutta, furthermore, Concerning the above, he argued that existing
social systems make it impossible to satisfy the different needs of the world population
at one time, thus they permanently reproduce both individual psychological and societal conflicts. And, what are these "needs"? Let Fromm explain this himself!
carlzim: Franz, Fomm's wife (Erika?), also a psychiatrist, got some schizophrenics out
of catatonia though observation & listening - an art.
jutta_schmitt2002: Please elaborate further on the concept of need according to
Fromm, Franz.
juttafranz: Yes, Carl -- ERIKA -- by the way, the name of Jutta´s mother -- the apples
do not fall far from the mother tree.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz. Please.
carlzim: Excellent, Franz
juttafranz: Fromm: “‘The most important misunderstanding seems to me to lie in a
confusion between the human necessities which I consider part of human nature,
and the human necessities as they appear as drives, needs, passions, etc., in any
given historical period. This division is not very different from Marx’s concept of
»human nature in general«, to be distinguished from »human nature as modified in
each historical period«.
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, guys.
juttafranz: "The same distinction exists in Marx when he distinguishes between
»constant« or »fixed« drives and »relative« drives. The constant drives »exist under
all circumstances and ... can be changed by social conditions only as far as form and
direction are concerned«. The relative drives »owe their origin only to a certain type
of social organization«.”
See: Human Nature and Social Theory, 1969.
jutta_schmitt2002: So, what are the invariable constants, and what the "relative
constants" according to Fromm?
carlzim: Upper classes dominate the need to be listened to.
jutta_schmitt2002: haha, Carl.
jutta_schmitt2002: Is this equivalent to the distinction of "basic needs" and
"artificial needs", Franz?
juttafranz: Well, Jutta, let us see -- Especifically,  In his first major work, Escape from
Freedom (1941), he traced  the development of "human freedom" and of European
ruling class self-awareness from the Middle Ages to the Second World War and, using
his psychoanalytic techniques, he analyzed the tendency of modern patrian man to
take refuge from his new insecurities, from "communism", "terrorism" or  "economic depression",  by turning to totalitarian, authoritarian movements such as Fascism and
Nazism.
carlzim: Today, "race," not money, mainly defines upper class. Bin Laden & Saddam
have money, but not the "right" race.
juttafranz: Sounds very up-to-date, up North!!!
jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, that would be the notion of "negative freedom" as elaborated
and employed by Fromm.
jutta_schmitt2002: But continue, Franz.
juttafranz: Agreed, Jutta, here is more: Concerning the contemporary ill- health of
the inutile "mad cows", of the billions of roaming, bellowing "cattle", of the roaring
pauperized individuals, who live in late (post-)capitalist society, in his work,
The Sane Society (1955), he explained that modern man, master and slave in one,
has become alienated and estranged from himself within consumer-oriented
industrial society. Thus, "modern man" is agonizing, suffering from powerlessness, meaninglessness, normlessness, cultural estrangement, social isolation, and
self-estrangement -- in nuce, from ALIENATION.
carlzim: IMHO they think the whites don't listen to them. So they make big noises.
juttafranz: Excellent idea, Carl.
carlzim: Thanks, Jutta
jutta_schmitt2002: However, don't forget, that what can be diagnosed as "alienation"
is, according to the very Fromm, the inability of "modern man" to walk towards
"positive freedom", preferring to evade this responsibility by adapting himself to forms
of life, that deny his very individuality.
iiiiriiiis: Or is the invariable constant probably equivalent to a certain kind of basic
relation and the changing or "relative" constant equivalent to certain, specific
manifestations on a certain, specific stage of the production process? -
iiiiriiiis: But please continue first with your introduction, Franz.
juttafranz: You mean Franz, Carl? Or juttafranz?
carlzim: Agreed, Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: But perhaps we should elaborate further on negative and positive
freedom as seen by Fromm after the introduction, Franz? Please continue.
carlzim: Continue, Franz.
juttafranz: Yes, Jutta, he has a different connotation of alienation, as many thinkers
nowadays.
carlzim: I won't interrupt.
jutta_schmitt2002: Neither will I. Continue, Franz.
juttafranz: However, in our sense of the concept, in other words, he has become
stark mad, dangerously crazy and savagely insane -- in a word, a terrorist. How true
this analysis was, we can verify hic et nunc on a world scale. This epidemic, endemic,
systemic alienation is the logical result of the whole patrian labour process, of the
absurd, perverse non-relation between Nature and Society, that supposedly serves
"basic human needs"; de facto, super-human greeds!
juttafranz: Like so many erudite eminences of our epoch, this Fromm could not see.
He still believed in "change from within the system"; within the Labour process, within
the Patria. For millennia, Man worked himself to death, but the only thing that did not
work was precisely the above-mentioned panacea, the major "chain of illusion".
Now, Physical Labour,  the Biblical "Golden Calf", the "Sacred Cow", all are running
bezerk; they cannot even be used as commodities, as corned-beef anymore, they are
already totally beefed up, just corny!
jutta_schmitt2002: (Franz, Fromm pictures indeed a "reunion" of society and nature
in his notion of "positive freedom" - but perhaps more on that later)
juttafranz: Among other works, he wrote the following: Man for Himself (1947),
Psychoanalysis and Religion (1950), The Art of Loving (1956), May Man Prevail?
(1961, with D.T. Suzuki and R. De Martino), Beyond the Chains of Illusion (1962),
The Revolution of Hope (1968), and The Crisis of Psychoanalysis (1970).
juttafranz: In Beyond the Chains of Illusion, Fromm analyzed such phenomena as
humanism, human motivation, common truth, the social unconscious, skepticism,
freedom from illusion, true objectivism and personal salvation.
Surely, we would agree with his suggestion to nurture "concerned knowledge",
however, as far as "identification with others through the loss of ego" is concerned,
we have to be very cautious with Big Brother´s Super-Ego. We love Fromm, but we
love the truth about current global fascist reality more.
jutta_schmitt2002: Continue, Franz.
carlzim: Yep, Franz.
jutta_schmitt2002: (Fromm states, that the "identification with others through the
loss of ego has a conditio sine qua non, Franz: the existence of a sane, free, proper
ego or individuality)
juttafranz: Now, Scotty would love this one: Now, like many of us, hopefully, just
imagine what he called for in his voluminous writings on human nature, ethics, and
love! For a New Renaissance of the European Enlightenment, for a new and perfect
society, in which each individual, also the rotting pariah of the ghetto of Calcutta,
would fulfill his "basic human needs"; as such, it would allow each person on the
globe to maintain her/his sense of belonging through bonds of social brotherhood.
nonpositivism: Franz...interesting ideas but I think they're weakest when you try to
make the transition from "alienation" to "insane global fascism" as you put it. Psychiatric analyses of mass movements are more for entertainment purposes than any serious
history. Furthermore, Freud has largely been discredited or obsolesced by modern psychopharamology and molecular biology. There is no "id" or "Ego" or "superego"
we can quantity or deal with at the individual level, much less at the societal level.
carlzim: Why European origin, Franz?
jutta_schmitt2002: May I add here also, that Fromm says, that a New Renaissance
would have to recognize and restore the humanist Marx.
juttafranz: We will discuss that one just now, Scott -- please, remind me!!
carlzim: Agreed, Scott. Id, ego & superego are concepts.
juttafranz: With that, Jutta, Scott never ever would agree.
juttafranz: Well, may Fromm rest in peace, no hurt feelings, but that is precisely
what was on the order of the day, and nothing else, is what we have now -- Global Brotherhood, Global Fascism. This George Orwell saw with prophetic historic precision.
Folks, that's all for now -- the debate can ensue now!
-----oOo-----

THE DEBATE

iiiiriiiis: Yes, Jutta, in other words, he thus points to the necessity to take subjective
as well as objective reality into consideration.
juttafranz: Folks, consider Scott's remarks above, please.
naranjahit2002: I have to read back, I did not get the point ...
jutta_schmitt2002: Exactly Iris: the interrelation between subjective and objective
reality. -- Franz, before we start the discussion, I suggest you finish your introduction
first.
jutta_schmitt2002: Oops. Let me read back here, I see you have finished the introduction already.
carlzim: Id=animal instinct, ego=self (preservation), super ego=control. Sometimes
these conflict & sometimes they complement each other. Freud thought the conflicts
cause mental illness. He was wrong.
juttafranz: I finished it, Jutta, leaving the lion's share for you and Scott.
carlzim: super ego=conscience (control)
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, I don't think that Fromm's solution to human alienation
would have pictured Global  Brotherhood or Global Fascism. This would not have
been consistent with his notion of "positive freedom".
carlzim: Again, why did Freud specify Europe?
carlzim: Fromm didn't envision Fanon.
jutta_schmitt2002: Freud and Marx, Carl, were eminent speakers of Europe at their
times, expressing an "eurocentric" view of individual and society, if you want.
carlzim: Yep, Jutta. Fanon=To be emancipated, Blacks must stop imitating Whites.
jutta_schmitt2002: But let me briefly recapitulate the central thesis Fromm elaborates
in his work "Fear of Freedom", which I find gives us a clue to how he perceived the
individual and society:
juttafranz: Carl, most erudite, world-renowned thinkers in the Western World, just see
the metropolitan countries, civilized man, just Europe and America -- and they just
ignore the rest of the world, the other billions, so did Freud, so did Marx, so did Fromm.
jutta_schmitt2002: His main thesis is, that modern (primarily European) man, who has historically gained but "negative liberty", that is his liberation from primary individual
and social boundings, which had limited him and yet at the same time given him a
sense of security, has not yet gained his "positive freedom" in the sense of the complete realization of his individual, intellectual, and emotional potentialities. Even if the already
obtained "negative" liberty has given him formal independence and rationality, it has
also isolated him and turned him fearful and impotent. ...
carlzim: Franz, North & South Korea collaborate economically behind the scenes.
Common race.
jutta_schmitt2002: .... This is, where according to Fromm, two possibilities of a
solution to this situation rise, consisting of either evading the responsibility of positive
freedom and submitting under new forms of dependence and authority, or of consciously assuming the difficult progress towards the full realization of positive liberty. ...
carlzim: Good point, Jutta
nonpositivism: Ok, Jutta. I can understand this, this part is plausible. But in no way
does it predict a convoluted turn to "fascism" when responsibility is evaded.
jutta_schmitt2002: According to Fromm, the evasion of the responsibility of positive
freedom prevails until today, constituting this evasion a psychological mechanism that
helps escape a feeling of loneliness, insecurity and impotence and which gives way
to the complete disposition of getting rid of one's personal individuality. This mechanism
of evasion, in turn, can have various faces, yet consists basically in the adaptation of
a form of life that reduces itself to activities of an automatic or compulsive character
(just think of the normal, standardized consumerist behaviour of the masses, for instance).
nonpositivism: In fact, most folks in North America and Europe are just struggling
to make a living, get by. They may be "evading responsibility" on some large universal
scale you postulate, but what does that have to do with fascism? You're not going to
call 300,000,000 American Fascists are you, Franz? So where's the connection?
carlzim: I think Franz refers to Big Brother in USA
carlzim: Enron, Bushes, etc.
jutta_schmitt2002: The getting rid of one's personal individuality can happen either
in the drowning of normal, standardized mass behaviour, of not wanting to stick out,
of wanting to adapt to the social norms and traditions and feel "secure", or, in its
most destructive form, the getting rid of ones individuality can adopt the form of authoritarianism, totalitarianism, where the individual submits to the figure of a Führer,
of a mass movement, and totally surrenders to the identification with these.
carlzim: We need to understand how our enemies think.
For terrorism 101, read the Al Qaeda manual after chat:
http://www.disastercenter.com/terror/index.htm
Who wrote this manual?
Interesting that the Chechen terrorists in the Moscow theater left
suicide notes in their apartments. Who paid their rent?
nonpositivism: But Carl, Franz everyone......what about the Secretaries and all the
others from Enron who lost their life savings? What makes Rumseld and Cheney
fascists and others not? Is Russell Feingold, a Senator in the most powerful legislative
body in the world - a fascist?
nonpositivism: These generalizations do not agree with me. Furthermore, Jutta,
this postulation by Fromm and yourself of the "extreme" form of submerging one's
personality remains purely theoretical and even when it is demonstrated, can actually
have positive results e.g. the foot soldiers fighting in the Republican Brigade, others
willing to "die for a cause" - except it's the cause that you like. That's what it's really
all about, isn't it? Which side are you on. From there, your whole historical premises
and arguments flow.
juttafranz: Scott, apart from my "good points" that are somehow "valid", also my
"interesting ideas", I always respect your views, they give flavour to our serious
chats. Now, the transition from  "alienation" to "insane global fascism",  was not
originally my idea, it was explained excellently by the very Fromm or even Fanon.
What encouraged Fromm, Orwell, Reich and Fanon to develop psychological treatises
were precisely the insane experiences of Nazi, fascist, Stalinist Europe. Alienation
is pathological; is madness or craziness to wage fascist wars on a global scale, as a
reich, is precisely what we see now as United States, insane, megalomaniac,
global fascism.
jutta_schmitt2002: Fromm distinguishes three main mechanisms of evasion, Scott: authoritarianism, destructiveness and automate conformity. Authoritarianism according
to Fromm consists in the tendency to completely give up the individual person, in order
to "melt" with something or somebody (also happens in inter-individual relationships
such as love-relationships). This mechanism of evasion tries to obtain the security and
strength that the own personality lacks,  in something or somebody else.
carlzim: Non-Europeans seeking liberty through Fascism:
nonpositivism: Jutta and Franz...because of simultaneous typing you missed my
immediately prior remarks. Read them and you will better understand the problems
I have with ur thinking.
carlzim: Read about non-Arians in Hitler's Wehrmacht. Carl
http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/axis/0009ae.htm
 Related Books
 Lions of the Desert: Arab
 Volunteers in the German Army

 Title: The East Came West: Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist Volunteers
         in the German Armed Forces 1941 - 1945
 Author: Antonio J. Munoz, Editor
carlzim: Description: This book presents the complete history of Muslim, Hindu
andBuddhist volunteers in service of the German armed forces.  Just like
volunteer units composed of men from the countries of Western Europe, the
Wehrmacht made extensive use of volunteers from Eastern European, Middle
Eastern, and Southeast Asian countries.  Muslims from Eastern Europe, the
Soviet republics, and even India and the Middle East all served in the
Wehrmacht, as did Hindu and Buddhist soldiers from Southeast Asia.  Such
units served with the Germans on all fronts of the war - from North Africa,
to the Eastern Front, to the hedgerows of Normandy and the final defense of
Germany itself.
iiiiriiiis: Jutta, a brief remark to your comment on Franz' remark above: Fromm
certainly did not advocate Global Fascism with his analyses - the problem however
which I guess Franz was trying to underline above is, that Fromm still pictured a
"psychological sane" "human nature" in terms of active, productive, independent,
labouring individuals, i.e., that in the final analysis he did not question the "full
spectrum dominance" of "man", "civilization" -  society versus nature. However,
you mentioned before that somehow Fromm suggested kind of a "reunion" of
society-nature with his concept of "positive freedom" - maybe you could elaborate
on that aspect?
jutta_schmitt2002: Don't forget, Scott, that authors like Fromm - practicing
psychoanalysts and scientists at the same time, had studied and tried to find an
answer from a socio-psychological view to a horrendous mass phenomenon that
actually happened. Of course, the mechanisms at work are the very same, no matter
what "content" a mass movement  or "a cause" has.
carlzim: Strange contradiction.
carlzim: What would Fromm think of Asian Bhuddists in Waffen SS in WW2?
juttafranz: Jutta, explain more about the mechanisms of evasion -- much for
Pandemonium to learn from them.
juttafranz: IIIIrrrriiiiss!!! Still around? SStteelllaaa!!!
iiiiriiiis: Yes, sure Franz!
juttafranz: OK! Iris!
jutta_schmitt2002: And there is - in my opinion - no doubt whatsoever, that society
as a whole, as well as in its individual expressions, is a pathological case. From a
humane, humanistic standpoint, Fromm did ask himself: how was it possible, that
millions of Germans would be fighting with enthusiasm in destructive wars? What
was the psychological disposition to give up on the faintest, humane-humanistic
principle and join the slaughtering? Generally spoken, how does destructiveness work
on a socio-psychological level, where are the origins?
carlzim: Yep, Jutta, Evasion, e.g., today, Bin Laden & Saddam would have joined
Waffen SS.
juttafranz: He would think that finally the Asians joined the "global fascist club",
leaving Maoist communism out in the cold Himalayas, Carl.
carlzim: Today, Ukrainian Waffen SS, UPA (nationalist) & Soviet Army WW2 veterans
don't get their pensions.
juttafranz: He would consider this the zenith of alienation and insanity.
carlzim: Agreed, Franz
jutta_schmitt2002: Fromm thought he had found an answer in the sadistic, masochistic, sado-masochist tendencies of individuals that can turn into utter destructiveness and
can be canalized by authoritarianism.
carlzim: Who is stealing their pensions?
juttafranz: Well, Jutta that is a precarious topic, sado-masochism, and its relation to
global fascism, even to the general patrimony and the personal matrimony.
nonpositivism: Jutta et al. what might be helpful here is another perspective: mass
action, mass psychology, and the psychology of conformity. Basic sociology. Although
crowd dynamics are often unpredictable and volatile, one constant is the great difficulty individuals have in resisting the common perceptions (including ones prone to violence) overwhelming present in their culture.
carlzim: Sadomasochism? Mass psychology?
carlzim: Read about Stalin's famine in Ukraine in 1930's after chat:
http://www.russiannewsnetwork.com/ukra-famine1.html
http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111famine.html
                              Ukrainian Famine
juttafranz: Jutta, please reply to Scott -- at this moment, we have that experiment here.
juttafranz: And, within the next days, we may be running like mad, running mad, if such
things would become worse.
nonpositivism: Example: Therefore, once the Nazi beast gained momentum and revved
up its intense propaganda machine, it was very very easy for most Germans to believe
what everyone around them was rapidly coming to believe- about Hitler, about Jews,
about "Living Space," the inferior non-Aryans, etc. It's a defect in human nature we
do not yet have a remedy for. No one does.
jutta_schmitt2002: Exactly - fine observation, Scott. This is one of the mechanisms
of evasion as depicted by Fromm. Conformity leads to a certain kind of security feeling.
This is why crowd dynamics and the conformate automaton as Fromm calls him, go
hand in hand. The individual gives up its own personality by blindly adapting to the
behaviour of the masses.
carlzim:     From: DocKozzak                                                                                   Dec-4 6:42 pm
To: ALL (1 of 1) 3787.1
Chernobyl victims protest demanding unpaid benefits
AP World Politics
Tue Dec 3, 7:50 AM ET
KIEV, Ukraine - Waving banners and shouting at passing lawmakers, some 200
survivors of the Chernobyl nuclear accident protested outside Ukraine's parliament
Tuesday, demanding payment of compensation and increased social protection.
iiiiriiiis: Continue please, Jutta...
juttafranz: IDENTIFICATION WITH THE FUEHRER, WITH THE FATHERLAND,
PATRIOTISM -- ALIENATION, LOSING ONE´S INDIVIDUALITY.
juttafranz: That is a central element of fascism.
nonpositivism: Jutta/Franz/Carl/Stella/Iris: Keep in mind that this is *built into*
human nature. A certain amount of conformity is necessary and adaptive/defensive
for a tribe against threats, outsiders, etc. Not just behavior, but thinking and of
course language. On a mass level, when crowds get violent, this conforming switch
gets turned on and look out..............you can get some sense of this from fiercely
devoted football fans. They're out for blood  and identify to an incredible degree
with their team - it's like they are *actually out there* in the arena. This is sublimated
warfare. When it's negative, it resembles what you call fascism.
nonpositivism: But this has less to do with abstruse theories of psychic alienation
than basic sociological reality.
carlzim: Yep, Scott: Crowds & Power (Elias Cannetti)
carlzim: Should Russia compensate the families of victims who starved to death in
Stalin's holocaust in 1930's? Read the following forum post of a Russian who
says "no:"
nonpositivism: Right, Carl. Fromm was very, very bright man but lacked the sociological perspective. Too much on the psychological.
carlzim: "It would be unjust to claim for compensation on the account of contemporary Germany. I know Germans already pay to the prisoners of the concentration camps,
for forced labour and for Jews. But I feel it is unjust."
jutta_schmitt2002: The basic principle at work is this: because the "individual person"
in most of the cases does not have an individuality at all (one of the illusions society propagates). "Indiduality" *if* it manifests itself at all, does so in appearance (at best,
how a person dresses, how (s)he furnitures the house, some "personal" likes or dislikes,
etc.). But what concerns a free, active, creative, responsible and loving thinking and
acting towards "the world and oneself", as Fromm would put it, almost none are able
to do so.
carlzim: I disagree with the Russian contact.
juttafranz: The others are: Arschkriechen, Gleichschaltung, Maulhalten, ... supply
cannon-fodder for Iraq, and, KKK, Kueche, Kinder and Kirche -- God Bless America! Not forgetting the scape-goats, guinea-pigs, clones, terrorists, communists, and niggers!
juttafranz: Pardon, my German!!!
carlzim: Jutta, I think Fromm didn't understand creative thinkers.
nonpositivism: Maybe Jutta but again any such analysis must take into account the
fact that humans are largely conforming in their behavior (have been since Homo
Sapiens took his first steps). That is a sociological fact. If you're the only kid not
playing with the group or who does not have what everyone else has you will feel
very left out. Most people including adults cannot withstand this kind of peer pressure.
It is not in our nature to do so, because of the genetic tilt we have toward conforming
behavior.
jutta_schmitt2002: The sociological perspective in Fromm is as present as the
psychological one. He considered the psycho-individual aspect that determines a
person as outlined by Freud, as well as the socio-historic aspect that determines a
person as outlined by Marx. This is the specific characteristic of Erich Fromm.
nonpositivism: With all due respect, Jutta, Marx was no sociologist. He was an
economist. Sociology did not really begin until Emile Durkheim 100 years ago.
carlzim: Alienation? Russian contact says:
carlzim: "About starvation of 30-s in Ukraine. As I know the starvation was not only
in Ukraine but in Smolensk, Voronezh and some other Russians cities. I
have heard in Kazakhstan it took away half of the population. One Russian
official mentioned the figure of 5 million people perished in starvation
of 30-s."
juttafranz: Scott, many world renowned scholars know that Marx was one of the
fathers of sociology.
nonpositivism: I would have to say these renown scholars Franz are renown for
their ignorance.... The mystery is why some people seem more resistant to outer-driven sociological "norms" than others. I have my theories about it, which would not doubt
generate strong disagreement here. Maybe some other time, would take too long today.
carlzim: Scott, Marx applied economics to classes (groups) (sociology).
juttafranz: Scott, where did you study or read sociology, it must have been like me in Verwoerd´s KwaZulu.
carlzim: Scott, agreed about their ignorance.
nonpositivism: Carl: Marx lacked systematical analysis of group behavior. He had
economic tunnel vision, by choice and by design.
juttafranz: Marx lacked a lot, Scott: democracy, liberty, glory, justice, etc.
carlzim: I know Scott, at least he tried.
juttafranz: Scott, I am awaiting the day, to hear from you a single, sweet, tender
word about Marx.
juttafranz: If the man was such a devil, such a moron, why did millions of¨"idiots"
follow him?
jutta_schmitt2002: Marx was a philosopher, sociologist, economist and humanist,
Scott, and his roots lie in the German idealist philosophers like Fichte, Schelling, Hegel,
in French, utopian socialism and in the English, classical national economists. One
thing is the discredited Marx, quite another the Marx in his manifold works and aspects.
juttafranz: And, why is he still a nightmare, and Hitler now a blessing in disguise up North?
nonpositivism: That does not necessarily diminish Marx's economic insights. But like
Fromm (for different reasons) he lacked sociological perspective. One must unite
Durkheim-like sociology, psychology, and Economics at a minimum for a more holistic
approach. Throw in cognitive neuroscience, biology, religion and these other factors
motivating human behavior and the picture becomes more complete, although it always
remains elusive.
nonpositivism: Franz - the numbers who follow an idea, icon or individual have nothing,
nothing at all necessarily to do with the Quality of his ideas.
juttafranz: Well, Scott, do you separate economy and sociology?
carlzim: Who does all that, Scott?
juttafranz: Even Adam Smith did not commit that fatal error.
nonpositivism: Franz: because I refuse to accept economic determinism.
nonpositivism: Carl: one person who does is Huston Smith, Philosopher. another is
FSC Northrop. Einstein was another. Jefferson another. There are many examples of
true multidisciplinary geniuses who intuitively knew to embrace many different paradigms simultaneously from different fields of thought and knowledge. Marx was not one of them.
nonpositivism: Marx's genius was more narrowly conceived.
jutta_schmitt2002: What is deterministic in the observation, that the historico-economic
being determines the consciousness and vice versa? What is deterministic in the
observation, that reality makes man and man makes reality? Would it not, in turn,
be deterministic, Scott, to affirm that man "always has been as he is" because of a
"genetic defect"?
nonpositivism: No, Jutta because the patterns dealing with genetic "limitations" are
dynamic and creative, non-static.
juttafranz: How can economists say anything real, without sociology or politics? And,
vice versa, what is a sociologist, who ignores labour, economics? Why is Marx a dialectician
and not a formal logician? A equal to  A; B equal to B;  where A and B are economics
and sociology.
jutta_schmitt2002: Why the hate against Marx, especially in North America? Why
the fierce discreditation of a truly genious thinker? Why the fear? What is or was the
problem with Marx?
nonpositivism: The dichotomy is between static qualities and dynamic qualities.
Determinism likes to look at static qualities and quantify things to death. It remains
forever trapped in this paradigm. Like 2-D creatures who cannot conceive of 3 physical dimensions, or like most humans who could not conceive of more physical dimensions
than 3.
nonpositivism: Franz: Marx never gained that much ground in America because of his positivist-determinist character. Even SDS and folks like that while they respected him
saw these limitations.
juttafranz: There are people that never read Marx´s eight books on Economics, or his
18th Brumaire, or his Paris Philosophic-Economic Manuscripts, or his German Ideology,
and then they claim to make scientific statements; I surely read and studied them all.
jutta_schmitt2002: Shall we stop thinking, shall we stop criticizing society, the labour
process, the pathology of globalized capitalism, shall we stop dreaming, shall we stop
negating - with and beyond Marx, an intrinsically inhumane, destructive social and
economic order? Shall we conform to what our infamous education institutes tell us
we shall read and believe? Shall we not bring our own rebellious spirit, that does not
conform with what we are told we have to study and believe?
carlzim:  Read about Elias Cannetti's Crowds & Power:
carlzim: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/ecanetti.htm
jutta_schmitt2002: Who of Marx' critics in America bothered to study German and
read the works of Marx in their original language?
nonpositivism: Marxists - while real blood was spilled and revolution going on in the
Streets for 15 years in the States between 1955 and 1970 to finally force America
to match the law and its deed to its Constitutional creed - were often mocking the
"bourgeoisie" character of the Civil Rights movement. An example of the kind of tunnel
vision that non-Marxists reject.
jutta_schmitt2002: Marxists are a VERY different thing from Marx, Scott.
juttafranz: Jutta, agreed! Guess who said this: Until now, all philosophers (and thinkers)
have interpreted the world in various ways, the point is, to change it.
nonpositivism: The best book about Marx (which you and Franz have yet to read, Jutta)
is the recent biography by Francis Wheen. Read it, if you dare.
jutta_schmitt2002: "ists" in general are problematic. No authentic, dynamic thinking
and acting. In this respect, we would reject both MarxISTS and Non-Marxists alike.
nonpositivism: You may discover much about Marx at great odds with your conception
of the man and his ideas. How do you deal with the contradictions will be interesting
to me.
jutta_schmitt2002: If we want to dissolve the contradictions, we are certainly on the
wrong path, Scott. One of the big difficulties to read and understand Marx originate
in the fact, that there would be not Marx without Hegel. And reading and understanding
Hegel trying to apply formal logics is destined to fail.
juttafranz: Scott, thanks. However, I like to read Hegel and Marx themselves in the
original, in German, to avoid treacherous translations, and the ideology of accepted
experts;  in this way, I have my view, and others may also study my view, unless, of
course, I have an inferiority complex, depending only on the words of the eminences.
jutta_schmitt2002: Also: we do not "absolutize" any thinker whatsoever, but we also
do not discredit a thinker just because our education institutes and our "politically
correct behaviour and thinking" tell us to do so. There are huge shortcomings in Marx,
and there are beautiful things in Marx alike.
jutta_schmitt2002: "The demand to give up the illusions about one's existence is the
demand to give up an existence, that demands illusions". Guess who? ;)
juttafranz: As I said once before, before you read Marx, you have to be a Marxist first,
but not only just one; much more;  if you want to read the Bible, read it as a Christian
and as much more --- because who writes, what is written, when it was written, why it
was written, the reader, who quotes, etc., all change permanently across the ages.
There is nothing absolute, nothing absolutely true, about acts, "facts", ideas, words,
thoughts and theories.
jutta_schmitt2002: So let us give up an existence that demands illusions, let us act,
think and excel on our own account - freely, inclusively and transcendingly.
jutta_schmitt2002: Lovingly and creatingly, to connect up with Fromm.
carlzim: Marxism? Imagine if the Bolshevik leaders had MBA's from Harvard. IMHO,
by paying compensation, today's generation may have a strong commitment to and
play an active role in fighting the causes of future holocausts.
Payment = value of holocaust prevention.
jutta_schmitt2002: Friends - especially Iris and Stella, who are back in our midst, an
encouraging word on breaking the chains of illusion, please.
carlzim: IMHO, even if the Bolshevik leaders had a formal education in agricultural
economics, they couldn't stop Stalin's forced farm collectivization. Stalin wanted
industrialization at all costs. IMHO, the system, not the Jewish, Georgian, Lettish
and other non-Russian origins of the Bolshevik leaders, produced the failure. Although
some bankers who financed the Bolshevik Revolution were Jewish, who borrowed
the money? The borrower determines the outcome.
juttafranz: On both counts, Jutta: about "changing the world" and the "existence
that demands illusions", the author was not Fromm, but Marx, the sociologist!
carlzim: IMHO, Lenin knew that Communism wouldn't work. So he introduced the
New Economic Policy (NEP) of mixed Socialism & Capitalism, which was to be the
USSR's economy; he also thought that eventually a Parliament would emerge with
different Socialist and Capitalist , but not Royalist parties. He wanted Jewish bankers
to finance this system. So he made  Bolshevik leadership disproportionately Jewish.
Lenin was unrealistic, and  so were the Jews who thought  Bolshevism would end
anti-Semitism.
juttafranz: Carl, the only thing that works is capitalism, American  corporatism, nothing
else, not socialism, not communism, not Marxism, not Maxism-Leninism!
juttafranz: Yeah, this "anti-ism" is the "Cold War "Nestle Milk" that we received from
the cradle; ideologically, in religious fashion,  we´ll take it to the Milky Way!
nonpositivism: The best prevention against Marxist indoctrination: eliminate the word "bourgeoisie" from your vocabulary. Use your own words, your own conceptions. Not
that one. That will begin your detoxification process.
nonpositivism: The Marxists who cannot take this step are just another version of the
Mass Mind following the great Leader's ghost.
iiiiriiiis: Sorry friends for the "silence" from here -  it's an excellent, heated debate,
and I enjoy all your contributions! Please continueth!
naranjahit2002: Agreed Iris. Listening.
juttafranz: What is in a word, in a name, Scott? Call Scott by any other name, he will
be just as ....
jutta_schmitt2002: D'accord, Scott. And how do we prevent ourselves against Capitalist indoctrination? Eliminate the word proletariat from our vocabulary? Shall we also
eliminate the word "war" from our vocabulary? And do we, if we eliminate a word
from our vocabulary, eliminate the reality, this term somehow refers to?
juttafranz: We are not wording, Scott, we are thinking, using the official, useless,
master and slave tools:  words and language,  like black, evil, devil --  the black, evil
devil from the "Dark Continent", etc.
jutta_schmitt2002: If you, however, mean, that we must give the terms we use a
DYNAMIC content, I could sort of try and approximate what you just stated.
juttafranz: Of course, we could develop a new lingo, that only we would  understand;
but, our thoughts, the very same thoughts, we are daily expressing in English, Spanish
and German. To express our trialogics, we could also use symbols, sounds, drums or
smoke signals for that matter.
jutta_schmitt2002: And here is a friendly rejoinder for Scott: We do not have filthy
beards, neither do we stand in the dark behind the street corner and less do we eat
little innocent children. ;)
carlzim: Listening
naranjahit2002: Hahahah Jutta!
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, do you have a beard?
juttafranz: Once upon a time, there were two sweet pioneers, well versed in the
German language, who decided to take a quick sojourn through the wilderness of
Hegel´s Phenomenology; they did not get far, not beyond the first sentence, not
because of lack of words or language, but simply because they were not yet dialecticians, Hegelians and philosophers. Guess who they were?
juttafranz: Well, they were Iris and Jutta!
carlzim: No beard.
juttafranz: Iris, please confirm.
juttafranz: Jutta, how is your Hegel reading nowadays?
juttafranz: Well, this applies also to the understanding, reading, evaluating and critique
of Marx, should all these have any scientific substance.
iiiiriiiis: Yes, indeed, Franz. We ended up sitting within a sea of books, trying to find
an explication, but to no avail, and laughing our heads off...
juttafranz: Jutta has a problem, no postings enter.
juttafranz: Please wait ....
juttafranz: You see, folks!
nonpositivism: "Bourgeoisie" has become a catch-all, meaningless cliché spouted by
Marxists for a century - a concept which is now obsolete in much of the post-Industrial
world. War, by contrast, is a universally understood set of events/facts on the ground.
Words which continue to capture meaningful realities we should hold onto; but some
concepts are dead and rather than breathe life into them we need to move on.
carlzim: What is your crowd symbol (Elias Canetti)?
jutta_schmitt2002: Back
nonpositivism: However, because of the lifelong investment any consciousness has in
certain venerable ideas, this is not attainable by most.
carlzim: Hi, Jutta
nonpositivism: "Bourgeoisie" has become a catch-all, meaningless cliché spouted by
Marxists for a century - a concept which is now obsolete in much of the post-Industrial
world. War, by contrast, is a universally understood set of events/facts on the ground.
Words which continue to capture meaningful realities we should hold onto; but some
concepts are dead and rather than breathe life into them we need to move on. However, because of the lifelong investment any consciousness has in certain venerable ideas,
this is not attainable by most.
juttafranz: Iris, that is a lesson that many have not experienced; when you are just a
passive, receiving vessel all your life, at school, university, etc., you think you are nuts
when you do not understand something. The true reasons are totally of another nature.
carlzim: Folks, what is your crowd symbol?
nonpositivism: Carl, I can tell you my Dad's - the New York Yankees emblem.
juttafranz: ¨"Crowd Symbol"? What is that, Carl?
naranjahit2002: Folks I'll sign of, it was a strenuous day.
nonpositivism: Ok, Stella ...thanks for being here and good night to you!
juttafranz: I have a "Crew Symbol", see our Trialogics Logo.

SAYING:  BYE !!

jutta_schmitt2002: Okay, Stella. Same here, by the way. Short, agitated nights and
long days.
juttafranz: Folks, we have to check what is happening in the country.
juttafranz: Next week we will continue.
juttafranz: Who wants to introduce a theme?
naranjahit2002: I saved the chat so far.
juttafranz: And what topic, please?
iiiiriiiis: Back.
jutta_schmitt2002: Iris got logged off, too.
juttafranz: I got all too, will send the chat to you all, just now.
carlzim: Crowd symbols:
Germany-marching forest
Italy-family meal
USA-complaining
juttafranz: Theme, Introducer, please!!!
iiiiriiiis: Please do so, Franz. I'll colour it.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, give us some 12 hours to suggest a topic and coordinate
with the crew.
carlzim: I'll save the chat
juttafranz: OK! Jutta.
jutta_schmitt2002: Interesting crowd symbols, Carl.
naranjahit2002: ok, so have a nice evening and Bye!
nonpositivism: Here's your exam question for next week: what should we call the lowly
paid white-collar USA workers who do easy, menial work for barely subsistence wages?
[The word proletariat is not allowed in your response. That goes for you too, Jutta]
juttafranz: Bye, folks, as usual it was a pleasure.
jutta_schmitt2002: I hear you, Scotty.
juttafranz: Scott, greet those "big boys" from us!
juttafranz: Greetings to Fran, Carl.
iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Stella!
carlzim: Bye all. Un plaisir.
juttafranz: Bye!!!
nonpositivism: Ciao.........to All
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Stella. Scott - I'm working on an answer to your question.
jutta_schmitt2002: working hard.
carlzim: Fran sends greetings to all.
jutta_schmitt2002: Ciao everybody, bye Carl and greetings to Fran.
juttafranz: Bye!!!
iiiiriiiis: Bye bye, Carl, Scott, Jutta and Franz!
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye all, be well. Keep in touch.
 

***************************************************
 CHAT NOTES

ERICH FROMM:  CONCERNED KNOWLEDGE
ABOUT BEYOND THE CHAINS OF ILLUSION, 
AND THE FEAR OF FREEDOM

By  Franz J. T. Lee

December 5, 2002

Erich Fromm, the German-born U.S. psychoanalyst and social philosopher,  was born on March 23, 1900 in  Frankfurt am Main, and died on  March 18, 1980 , in Muralto, Switzerland. Relating patrian psychology and society, he
blieved that psychoanalytic principles could remedy cultural ills, that "mankind" could develop a psychologically balanced “sane society.”

Having studied and been trained at the Universities of Heidelberg and Munich, he began practicing psychoanalysis as a disciple of Sigmund Freud, whom he later criticized of ignoring societal factors in human psychology.

Fromm was of the opinion, that an individual's personality was the product of his culture as well as his biology. Of course, after 1933, fleeing from Nazi oppression, in the USA, lecturing at various universities, his US orthodox Freudian psychoanalytic colleagues were not quite fascinated by such revolutionary ideas. However, according to Fromm, in a world of antagonistic social classes, the understanding of basic human needs is quintessential to the understanding of human society, and of (ruling class) Man and of (ruled class) Man themselves. In this way, philosophically, Fromm was profoundly influenced by Freud and Marx.  

Concerning the above, he argued that existing social systems make it impossible to satisfy the different needs of the world population at one time, thus they permanently reproduce both individual psychological and societal conflicts. And, what are these "needs"? Let Fromm explain this himself!

“‘The most important misunderstanding seems to me to lie in a confusion between the human necessities which I consider part of human nature, and the human necessities as they appear as drives, needs, passions, etc., in any given historical period. This division is not very different from Marx’s concept of »human nature in general«, to be distinguished from »human nature as modified in each historical period«.

"The same distinction exists in Marx when he distinguishes between »constant« or »fixed« drives and »relative« drives. The constant drives »exist under all circumstances and ... can be changed by social conditions only as far as form and direction are concerned«. The relative drives »owe their origin only to a certain type of social organization«.”  See: Human Nature and Social Theory, 1969.  

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