PLEASE NOTE:

          Take all the typographic errors as Pandemonium
          Greetings,  it would take hours and hours to edit this
          particular manuscript; it would absorb too much valuable
          "time" to correct everything. To revise our over 150 chats,

         Hence, please, accept our apology! We'll check
         the manuscript to avoid any possible errors that may
         cause misunderstanding. Chats, by their very nature,
         are not perfect scientific treatises. However, as you would
         notice our debates are stringently scientific and philosophic.

Yahoo! Messenger: Conference juttafranz-21518 started.
Yahoo! Messenger: nonpositivism has joined the conference.
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.                                       Yahoo! Messenger: naranjahit2002 has joined the conference.                          Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has joined the conference. 

Moderator:  Franz 

nonpositivism: Here at last!                                                                     
nonpositivism: Stella, glad u could make it! Long time, no speak..........
juttafranz: Hi! Folks, Long Time, No See!!
nonpositivism: Well, Franz, glad to see you're alive and kicking!
josuecc: Good afternoon!
josuecc: Hi, Carl
nonpositivism: Hello Carl, Josue, Jutta, Stella...........!!!!! [in alphabetical order, to be fair:>]
juttafranz: Well. I was busy transforming our ideas into reality.
josuecc: Hi, Jutta, Franz, Stella!!!
carlzim: Hi, Franz, Scott, Stella, Josue
naranjahit2002: Hi all! Nice to see you. But I will not really participate - came from work some moments ago, have to eat and relax, I corrected articles the whole day and the letters are running wild before my eyes :(
carlzim: Where's Jutta?
naranjahit2002: But I will try to safe the chat.
nonpositivism: OK, Stella, just keep us warm and cozy with ur presence lurking there in the background:>
naranjahit2002: Yep Scott.
juttafranz: Jutta has some problems, just wait please.
juttafranz: Her messages do not appear!!
carlzim: Ok, Franz
nonpositivism: It's big Brother, trying to censor Jutta!
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.                     josuecc: Hi Jutta!
juttafranz: Hi! Jutta!!!
nonpositivism: Irrepressible Jutta it appears is back...........!
jutta_schmitt2002: Third try. Hello all!
carlzim: I entered this chat without invitation.
jutta_schmitt2002: Now, that's nice to see you all again! :)
carlzim: Hi, Jutta
jutta_schmitt2002: Hello Josué, Franz, Scott, Carl, Stella, and ..... El Gocho?
nonpositivism: Jesus is on if u want to invite him as well!
josuecc: el gocho is working!
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz please invite El gocho!
jutta_schmitt2002: gocho24
carlzim: Franz, please check Jammer.
nonpositivism: Ok! Yes, he has a new job as I recall.
Yahoo! Messenger: gocho24 has joined the conference.                  jutta_schmitt2002: El gocho para el 2008! ;)
carlzim: Hi, Jesus.
nonpositivism: Hi Jesus, how's the new job going?
jutta_schmitt2002: Hola Jesús.
juttafranz: Hi! Jesus!! Folks, no introduction today, you have the floor. Questions, comments, about the world situation: Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, USA?
josuecc: "Ese hombre si camina.....";)
gocho24: Hi Everyone!
jutta_schmitt2002: Definitivamente.
josuecc: Venezuela!
juttafranz: Hi! Stella!!!
gocho24: Man... this is weird... I'm on a UNIX console... the conferences are really different :)
nonpositivism: Things stand out in sharp relief after having been out of the States for a few weeks and then returning. It's much clearer to me how difficult it is for countries to resist US pressure and power.                                                            carlzim: How different, Jesus?
juttafranz: Never mind, console yourself Jesus -- where two or three are united in your name, everything is unix, unique!!
gocho24: Well... I gotta keep pressing "enter" to read each of you's comments....
nonpositivism: But Jesus, Unix is like a religion for you Network guys! More stable, more flexible, more scalable. You can't complain, u know about a different user interface.:>
carlzim: Franz, did you&Jutta return to university?
gocho24: I'm not complaining... but this isn't an X program (it's console)....
jutta_schmitt2002: No introduction today, Franz? --- Where shall we begin? How can we pick up the threads of all our past chats and conferences? What are the visible, what are the invisible processes of the current world outlook and order, or rather disorder? What is apparent to the eye, what is hidden? What about our diagnoses, where do we stand, whither doeth we go?
nonpositivism: Jesus, ur back in the 1980's (before ur cyber-time) the days of all CR/LF and character-based terminals, haha...........
josuecc: Venezuela would be a good subject... and its entailment with Iraq
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz got stuck in cyberspace and has to reboot ---- which will take me off cyberspace, too. Hang on, guys.

Starting the debate

nonpositivism: welcome back to Jutta and Franz, that brave duo who made another round-trip in cyberspace to return to their Yahoo Chat Destiny!       jutta_schmitt2002: Back. Josué: Are you aware that they are trying to connect the Venezuelan government now with Al Qaeda? This is the next step on the inter-national agenda.
nonpositivism: Jutta, maybe we should suspect you and Franz of harboring al-Qaaeda folk. :))
jutta_schmitt2002: We harbour strange things here indeed, Scott! Lead-free gasoline, for example ;) Josué, and Jesús - what is your appreciation of the current Venezuelan situation?
jutta_schmitt2002: This is a very unstable connection today. Carl got booted off.
juttafranz: Well, Miami is of that opinion now -- soon Bush will set the wild fire here. A State of the Terrorist Art Speech!!
josuecc: If Jutta, the former pilot of the presidential airplane says to have given a check to the ambassador in India with the purpose of helping to the network Al Qaeda.
nonpositivism: Josue/Jutta....that is a bizarre angle which I have not yet seen in the media here. Please explain and clarify for us.
nonpositivism: Franz, Bush wants war. It's the only thing he and his cronies know how to do well.
carlzim: Hi, folks. I had to reboot.
juttafranz: Yahoo is crazy today!!
gocho24: I believe I have to stand by my view that this Venezuelan government is inept and economically-challenged (ideas, not cash)....
juttafranz: Bold please, folks!!
gocho24: REGARDLESS of the opposition, international conspiracies, etc...
gocho24: Sorry.. I can´t do bold on the console :(
juttafranz: Continue, Jesus!!
nonpositivism: But about 50% of America is not buying into the war mongering, in spite of intense media propaganda and manipulation.
jutta_schmitt2002: No easier thing to buy and bribe individual people, Josué. That is the modus operandi of the "new moral" of the "new world order", which is not so new at all. - It seems Scott, as if in Miami, a bunch of "self-exiled" Venezuelans got together with Exile-Cubans and decided to found a movement in order to oust both, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chávez. They have launched the "idea" that Chávez is in connection with Al Quaeda. Something which I expected quite a while ago. It's just too simple, too stupid, too obvious.
nonpositivism: In Canada from what I saw they are far less enthusiastic, although USA is putting considerable pressure on them.
josuecc: I synthesize the situation of Venezuela as an internal fight enabled and promoted by the international oil capital.
gocho24: Let me just say that yes, I agree there's a constitution that has to be obeyed, yes, Chavez is a legitimate president, yes, the opposition has their definition of democracy wrong... BUT...
carlzim: However, 8 countries agreed to support USA in war vs. Iraq:
UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Hungary, Poland, Denmark & Czech Republic.       gocho24: And here's is my BIG but...
nonpositivism: No, Jutta it's the new Axis of Evil: Castro-Chavez-Al-Qaaeda. I would not be surprised to see Bush and Chancellor Cheney start selling this soon, it would play very well esp. in Miami. :>
carlzim: Scott, Castro cooperates with USA vs. Al Qaeda
gocho24: The current Venezuelan government is inept (maybe someone should teach Chavez the word diplomacy), it's corrupt and, most of all, this government of ours has NO IDEA of the economic principles that make a country grow...
gocho24: I'm a very strong proponent of the "It's the economy, stupid!" principle...
gocho24: Dignity? People don't eat dignity...
nonpositivism: Jesus, those who feel threatened by Chavez (middle and upper classes) - I met some recently - say he has the "sensitivity of an elephant". Translated: he will be too disruptive to our interests, too fast. They want a Pinochet model. Chavez is more of an Allende model. It's class warfare. Chavez clearly enjoys tremendous support among subsisting and poor Venezuelans.
carlzim: Jesus, USA may be supporting Chavez and his opposition in divide & conquer.
josuecc: I agree that the Bolivariano government has many faults, but different from other countries, it is facing an opposition that unmasked its "hidden strategy" on 11th of April  last year.
carlzim: Scott, Chavez is less radical than others in VZ. That's why USA supports him.
gocho24: I wanna make clear, though ... I'm not trying to cleanse the opposition's sins by what I'm saying.... I'm just stating that Chavez could've been more careful as to not disrupt the economy the way he did (PRE STRIKE! The economy was going down WAY before december).
nonpositivism: Jesus, in this case, a Marxian class analysis is appropriate. It's appropriate unfortunately in much of Latin America because of the legacy of Spanish empire, weak or no democracy, and tremendous class polarization. And those at the upper niche (top 10%) of wealth and assets do not want to compromise a dime (or peso, or whatever they use) from their own pockets to create a robust political democracy and more egalitarian economy.
carlzim: In Cuba in 1950's, Castro was less radical than Frank Pais, so USA supported Castro and Pais was assassinated.
gocho24: Did Venezuela need reform? Hell yeah the country did! Did they need a president like Chavez? One that can't control his own mouth and keeps some "fasci of combattimento" at the base of his party?
nonpositivism: Carl, support is not quite the word. the US is uneasy about Chavez and would prefer a Pinochet style autocrat.
nonpositivism: Jesus, what are "fasci of combattimento"?
carlzim: I disagree, Scott. The USA is committed to democracy worldwide.
carlzim: Democratic dictatorship, not Pinochet model
gocho24: Maybe I'm a bit skeptical.... you see... I don't care much for Marx or Engels... yes, I find them interesting, but I think we need to revise our views... isn't it more democratic to create the basis of a healthy economy where EVERYONE has access to opportunities instead of complaining about the proletariat?
gocho24: "Fasci de Combatimmento" were the armed, urban guerrilas Mussolini used to keep his opposition in check...
gocho24: Our Circulos Bolivarianos...
gocho24: I believe in the economy, I believe in numbers, statistics, growth, market forces...
gocho24: Maybe it';s the engineer in me talking....
nonpositivism: Carl, disagree completely. The USA has never been committed to democracy worldwide, ever. It's committed to expansion of its home and war economy and global markets. This has been true for the last century. Go abroad, spend some time living anywhere touched by USA influence and this becomes very clear, very quickly. It's power politics, not democracy. True political and economic democracy are very dangerous things. Even James Madison thought so, ergo the bicameral legislature, Senatorial election by State legislatures, voting rights for only those with property, etc.
gocho24: Or maybe it makes sense!
gocho24: I, however, disagree with the technocrats in the theory that markets would take care of everything by themselves and themselves alone.... the poor, the fragile need help achieving these goals of igualitarism. 
                                                     
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.  
   
jutta_schmitt2002: Back. Miserable connection.
carlzim: Scott, I mean democratic dictatorship.
nonpositivism: Stability/autocracy and imperialist ambition have been the "guiding light" of America's policy in the Southern Hemisphere since the Spanish-American war. This is not to single out the USA. It's well-grounded in history, in empires seizing power.
carlzim: Bush's vision.                                                                                              

Yahoo! Messenger: juttafranz has joined the conference.      

juttafranz: Yahoo says: I am not authorized to join this conference. Perhaps, I should send an application to Big Brother first!!
nonpositivism: Carl, there is no such thing as a democratic dictatorship. Be careful, or before u know it u will be entrapped in Bushian doublespeak.
carlzim: Like previous Soviet democratic centralism.
juttafranz: Anyhow, folks, save everything, and send me the complete manuscript later.
carlzim: That's what's being used - doublespeak.
nonpositivism: "democratic centralism" <=> totalitarianism. The lesson of the Soviet Union, China, Cuba all of them.
juttafranz: Well, Scott, what about a dictatorial democracy.
josuecc: I think that also it is advisable to clarify, that the economic, social and political crisis of Venezuela, is a historical crisis that begins in concrete form in 1983 (seeing it from the perspective of Gramsci).
juttafranz: Listening, Josué!
nonpositivism: It's ironic that folks from Bush to Carl now would try to revive this concept for American interests. Laughable were it not for its deadly serious implications.
carlzim: Agreed, Scott. But USA globalization model includes some compromise & illusion, not Pinochet.
juttafranz: Well, I am laughing, Scott.
carlzim: I'm observing, not supporting doublespeak.
nonpositivism: Pinochet and Milton Friedman, Nixon-Kissinger, IT & T are in, Allende is out. So is Franz again, apparently! :>
nonpositivism: Hi Franz, are u in or out?                                               jutta_schmitt2002: My big question in all this is the following: Given, that, at the current and a probably elevated speed of consumption, the world's fossil fuel resources will be lasting for another 40 years and no more, why do we not "see" a frenetic search for "alternative energy", but instead a run on what is over and obsolete anyway? We have seen in Venezuela these past couple of weeks what it is like when the fuel supply gets completely to a standstill: the whole economy based on fossil fuel collapses. Transport collapses, production collapses, distribution collapses, consumption collapses. This would be the picture all over the world in 40 years from here anyway. The question, thus: is America, is Europe, is Japan, is the world THAT shortsighted as to not be looking for alternative energy?
carlzim: Bushladensaddamism
Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.                         Yahoo! Messenger: juttafranz has joined the conference.                    jutta_schmitt2002: On and off ... and on again.
nonpositivism: Jutta, Khalid and I discussed exactly this question about Energy sources at great length a few weeks ago.
juttafranz: Folks, my Yahoo messenger, just disappeared on my screen!! Back again!!
josuecc: The "intellectuals of the opposition" make an analogy between Chávez and Somoza.....
juttafranz: And, their conclusion, Josué?
gocho24: I think Chavez is more comparable to Ortega anyway...
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, it is so obvious - with the rapidly diminishing traditional energy sources, the very kind of economy based on it is disappearing, too. Question: What is in the making? What is coming up? What next?
nonpositivism: My feeling is that the problem is 2 fold. Those wealthy countries somehow continue to believe that they are immune or can shelter themselves from long-term ecological and economic depletion. It's fundamental denial, like those in California knowing an earthquake is coming within 25 years but put it out of their minds.                                                                                                                          juttafranz: Yes, and why?                                                                                       gocho24: Let's see.... Ortega and his Revolution.... the only number I care about is this: 90% of loss in the purchasing power of Nicaraguans.... Patria o Muerte!                                                                                                                

juttafranz: That´s not ostrich politics, Scott.
juttafranz: The ostrich at least senses the coming earthquake, while its ears are on the ground of reality.
 juttafranz: Mmmm .. Jesús, a strange approach ....
josuecc: Franz, my conclusion is that these are different situations, because the "detonating" of the Venezuelan conflict is petroleum!
carlzim: Tesla technology will replace oil in approx. 50 years. In the short run, however, oil is the main energy source. IMHO the USA needs to control Venezuelan and Iraqi oil industries for cheap oil sources in part because the USA
is borrowing to buy.                                                                                                  
jutta_schmitt2002: To Josué and Jesús: We also may have to "depersonalize" the current Venezuelan crisis a little, and not stick too much to the "great men" that "make history" (the same is valid for "Bush & Co."). They all are but EXPRESSIONS of contradictions, colliding processes, antagonisms that arise in the overall picture of the world labour and economic process. We have to understand the national and international forces behind these "players".
juttafranz: Carl, Bush said that hydrogen energy would replace it within 5 years.
carlzim: At the point when the USA won't be able to do that any longer, it must be in a position where it does not have to borrow money to pay for oil. Presently
The USA has some control over Venezuelan and Iraqi oil, but it wants total control.                                                                                                           nonpositivism: The second is "inertia" and greed. The short-term greed and interests that want us to deplete fossil fuels are very strong, entrenched in WTO and all G7 governments, etc. One must go back to the 1940's when GM and others were convicted of sabotaging all rail and bus lines in this country (finally paid $10,000, got off with perhaps the economic crime of the century) to force US suburbs and metropolitan areas to buy GM automobiles, setting our energy pattern of consumption for decades. The same thinking prevails today. Those people are bastards.
juttafranz: How about photon atomic ignition energy?
carlzim: Franz, Bushbullscheisse.
nonpositivism: Hydrogen is interesting. but if Bush were serious you'd see 20 - 50 billion/annum in it with the best minds in the world, like the Los Alamos Project. 1.2 Billion is piss $$, throwaway $$ for them, just some crumbs thrown out for political points.
juttafranz: Agreed, Scott.
carlzim: Agreed. Scott
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, why not launch Tesla energy right away and spare the headache about the hunt for oil?
carlzim: At the point when the USA won't be able to do that any longer, it must be in a position where it does not have to borrow money to pay for oil. Presently
The USA has some control over Venezuelan and Iraqi oil, but it wants total control. josuecc: Jutta, which you mean to me I learned it of the "18 Brumario de Luis Bonaparte" (Karl Marx).
nonpositivism: Carl, yes. And that's why USA foreign policy is inclined to be more brutal.
juttafranz: Scott, what happened? the whole world agrees with you. Smile. The Toronto air must have done you real "good"!
carlzim: Jutta, the oil impoters, e.g., Rockefellers are too powerful.
nonpositivism: Franz, I see everything from rarefied air now. Above the smog.
gocho24: Has anyone thought of the Thermodinamic laws? Or even maybe the principle of Energy? NO energy can be created or destroyed, it can only be changed ...  In order to separate Hydrogen from Oxygen in water, you need energy... and you would still need oil and other fuel....
juttafranz: OK, Scott, keep up the airy spirits -- you´ll need them in the coming months!!
carlzim: Scott, but they don't need a Pinochet and make leftist martyrs.
carlzim: They need Luis Napoleon (LOL)
juttafranz: Yes, Carl, not the bony, but the oily part.
carlzim: Agreed, Franz.
nonpositivism: Jesus, good point there. You know a lot more physics than the dork running the USA right now. By the way, Regardless of what folks like Chavez (even Ortega of Nicaragua, who I don't think was as compromising and generous as Chavez) want to do, the obstacles and intervention from Global Economice elites, often in the form of outright warfare and destabilization (America in Chile 1970-1973, Nicaragua 1979-1989, Venezuela 2001-?) makes it 10 times harder to achieve political and economic democracy and higher standards of living for a majority.
nonpositivism: Now my in-laws (anti-Allende Chileans) boast that Pinochet/Friedman did raise standards of living during the dictatorship to now the highest of all South American countries, but that was only AFTER they agreed to completely acquiese to the USA. This is very important to understand.
gocho24: On the other hand, Venezuela went from having the highest living standard in Latin America due to poor economic decisions.... Maybe we should stop thinking about politics a bit and try to see the problem from a purely economical point of view...
nonpositivism: Jesus, it would be nice to do that but they are inseparable. One other thing- how much has Venezuela's upper class suffered in the last few years?
gocho24: Not much! the poor, however, have!
nonpositivism: My point: We have to stop worrying about how to protect the rich and the upper classes who will do just fine looking out for themselves.
Yahoo! Messenger: juttafranz has joined the conference.                                  juttafranz: Jutta is rebooting!!
juttafranz: We are on and off, really in action.
gocho24: We should stop worrying about the poor a bit and create a judicial system that attracts investment and creates wealth! The poor, then, would take care of themselves by making a living.
nonpositivism: We also have to partially rid ourselves of the notion that giving the rich more room to maneuver, invest, tax breaks, etc. will inevitably trickle down to the poor. In fact, this generally does not happen unless there is severe counterpressure or institutions that make sure the wealth is more evenly distributed. You need a balance between the dynamics of unimpeded wealth creation and social and political good of the many, not just the few.
juttafranz: Scott, you seem to have the whole manuscript, please secure and save it, and send it to me later.
gocho24: Jutta: GREAT point!
gocho24: I do believe, however, that certaing regimes have taken that point to extremes ... and the product of that is investment fleeing and more abyect poverty.
carlzim: Agreed , Scott & Jesus. Re: libertarian free enterprise (Friedrich Hayek)
nonpositivism: Jesus, looking at what the USA went through in the 1930's should be mandatory for your economic education. It could easily have become a Fascist state were it not for an Administration in Washington that believed in organized labor and allowed some militancy to countervail big business. That is the major reason the USA developed a strong middle class.
juttafranz: Well, Scott, what could we do? The point is great, but what about the realization of this magnificent idea?
carlzim: Scott, all Roosevelt taxed the rich to pay for his programs.                    Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.    
jutta_schmitt2002: Back. Sorry guys.
nonpositivism: Actually the USA is now moving quite aggressively toward fascism because democracy and plutocracy are not compatible. No "democratic dictatorships" here. :>
jutta_schmitt2002: YIM runs havoc today.
carlzim: also Roosevelt.
nonpositivism: Carl, fortunately Roosevelt although from upper-class aristocracy (seen as a traitor to his own class) knew that to save the system he could not just worry about taking care of the rich and hoping things would trickle down. That failed, miserably after 1929 with 1/3 unemployment and u know the rest.
carlzim: Scott, I disagree. USA fascism will be the illusion of democracy (democratic dictatorship).
juttafranz: As I said before, what about a "1984" there, a patriotic dictatorial democracy, Scott?
carlzim: Franz, that's what we have in USA.
gocho24: I believe the unemployment rate in the US during the Great Depression was 25% :)                                                                                                              gocho24: that makes it 1/4, not 1/3 :)
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott and Carl, has there been any mayor media coverage of the apparent and open disagreement of generals of the US army with the current war course of the Bush administration? Is it not a strange situation, that militarymen urge civilians to be cautious in their relentless drive for war, and are, in return, being told to get in line or look for another job? Is it true, that "only" 52 % of Americans still approve the current war course? Is that percentage not much, much higher in reality?
juttafranz: It seems that "democracy" is the only thing that does not obey the laws of A=A, we have all sorts of democracies, even "new war democracies", oil democracies, democratic oil, etc.
nonpositivism: Roosevelt also intuitively understood that some deficit spending had to be tried, although Keynes and others knew that FDR was weak in academic economics.
carlzim: Yep, Scott. But Roosevelt used some dictatorial means.
nonpositivism: Actually Jesus we will never know. All historians and economists agree it was between 1/4 and 1/3.
carlzim: e.g., Treasury agents modelled after Soviet GRU.
nonpositivism: Franz, USA "Democracy" has become almost the opposite of what was envisioned in 1776 and 1787. We no longer practice it. We have some nominally democratic form, but essentially we are a plutocracy.
juttafranz: Folks, what version of Yahoo do you have? It seems that ours are outfated. I have 5.5.0 1244.
nonpositivism: Jutta, there has been minimal coverage of the dissenting voices from the Military brass. The news media seem to want war too. One can conceive many plausible reasons why this would be so.

jutta_schmitt2002: How many people actively demonstrated in cities all over America against the war? Would their number reach more than half a million? What about all the rest? Have there been actions to collect signatures against the war, the current administration and its engagenment in fraud, deceipt and corruption? Any democratic-active citizens left in America?
gocho24: Didn't Orwell mean 2004 instead of 1984?
carlzim: I have 1246
nonpositivism: Jesus, Orwell wrote in 1948. To make it appear futuristic, he flipped the last 2 digits!
carlzim: From a Russian cpntact online: what we are witnessing today, is quite close to the events of 2001. and the economy wason a blink then, as it is today. for example: driving around moscow today, i was amazed to see the dollar dropping at a dramatic, unbelieviable speed. The Ruble to the dollar exchange is: 31.7o to the $....
34.20 to the Euro... I'm thinking of exchanging my dollars for the first time ever in my lifetime. I will win, if I change them to rubles for the first time.    jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, I have these secondary Yahoo windows popping up every instant and frequently freezing the whole programme, version 5.5.0. 1244.
juttafranz: Jesus, he meant 1914 already!
nonpositivism: Jutta, anti-war sentiment is growing. Even the USA Congress is about evenly divided, although major Democrats who should oppose this war like John Kerry of Mass. so far have not had the courage to do so (afraid of appearing unpatriotic and watching their own Presidential aspirations falter).
carlzim: Jutta, it may not be the version. Internet quite unstable lately.
nonpositivism: But massive anti-war demonstrations, outpouring etc. seems greater abroad, like what Italy had months ago is much greater than anything comparable here.
carlzim: Folks, value of ruble will equate dollar
carlzim: War needed to aid USA economy.
juttafranz: But taking the war bull by its oily horns, that anti-war sentiment is still in its baby-socks in the USA, Scott.
jutta_schmitt2002: What about the very Republicans, Scott? Have I gotten this right, that there is quite an even split within the very Republicans themselves about the current war course, yet they do not dare to show their disrupture publicly?
nonpositivism: Jutta, in general, u r correct.
carlzim: Scott, they may orchestrate a terror attack to discredit anti-war sentiment.
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, who will pay for the war costs? How will this war and the 2003 budget be financed?
nonpositivism: Carl, I would not put it past them.
juttafranz: Scott, those that are anti-war, what are their motives? Patriotic, humanistic, Christian, egoistic, out of fear?
carlzim: Jutta, they will borrow to pay.
nonpositivism: I do think though that War will aid the USA economic interests that are supporting the war currently, but it will not represent a boon to the USA economy in general - as George Bush Sr. found out 12 years ago before he was voted out for his gross macro-economic failure.                                                         Yahoo! Messenger: naranjahit2002 has joined the conference.
naranjahit2002: Thanks Jutta. I saved the first part.
jutta_schmitt2002: How can they pretend to cut the taxes for the rich, and let the ordinary folks sit with a heck of a burden? Any dissenting voices on this? Welcome back, Stella.
carlzim: Based on an online article-- George Orwell (see below) established the connection between the dominant type of warfare and the state of freedom. Also, he perceived the outlines of something like Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW) being able to subvert    industrial warfare-a bold prediction 3 months after Hiroshima. Orwell's experience in Spanish Civil War (1936) (re: his book "Homage to Catalonia") may have influenced his "comment. In that war, the Spanish loyalists sporadically used the petrol bomb, a non-conventional weapon, vs. Franco's tanks. In the Winter War (1940), the Finns widely used it as the Molotov cocktail vs. Soviet tanks. Carl  http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c467.htm  George Orwell on the Relation Between Freedom & the Rise of 4GW.
juttafranz: Why should an American oppose the new wars when they are good for the country, for the general welfare of America? Wars have economic reasons, have power motives, and that should be what the citizens should support. Please explain, Scott.
nonpositivism: Jesus, one point u may want to consider. When democratizing, redistribute-the-wealth type of leaders like Chavez surface, the immediate reflexive reaction of those who don't want to give up their position (pay a little more tax, or nationalize some industries, etc.) is to leave, or threaten to leave, or to reinvest elsewhere and try to undermine the program and reimpose the old Business as Usual which benefits the very few. This creates more polarization.
jutta_schmitt2002: Folks, I myself got logged off so many times that I have not been able to follow and save a big part of this chat. Please all send their fragments or what you have been able to save to Franz. Thanks.
carlzim:  "It is a commonplace that the history of civilisation is largely the history of
weapons. In particular, the connection between the discovery of gunpowder and the overthrow of feudalism by the bourgeoisie has been pointed out over and over again. And though I have no doubt exceptions can be brought forward, I think the following rule would be found generally true: that ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the
dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance.  jutta_schmitt2002: The very means of production, Carl, or production technology are the very means and measure for the means of DESTRUCTION or destruction technology. The two sides of "civilization".
nonpositivism: continuing for Jesus...What follows is very difficult because with the wealth these few people or corporations have, they can bring some sectors of the economy to their knees and will not hesitate to do so to break reform or revolutionary movements. This forces the Reformers in a reactionary mode. The only way to break the cycle is through reasoned dialogue and elections, but Latin America is very new to this. And the USA and others want to make sure it remains a foreign concept there unless minimal reform in the ultimate outcome is assured. It wants to do business. Follow the $$.
juttafranz: Jutta, why really does America want to get rid of Chavéz or Hussein? And soon of the governments of North Korea, Iran and Libya? Do the 50% of Americans really protest against these fundamental reasons.
carlzim: Good point, Jutta
gocho24: I see your point....
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, fine summary you gave for Jesús.
juttafranz: Jutta, awaiting the answers of two crucial questions.
nonpositivism: Jesus, I wish I could take a less cynical approach about my country's foreign policy, But it's nothing new. The difference is that America is still kind of an adolescent "bully" mentality, it hasn't finetuned its foreign policy the way the Romans did.:>
gocho24: so, by that rational, Chavez (being NOT prone to dialogue) is unwanted?
juttafranz: Scott, the Lord forbids, we adore, we admire, we defend your country´s foreign policy, that Jutta will explain just now.
nonpositivism: I do not know enough about what dialoguing has been attempted. But I have a strong feeling the oligarchs who still control Venezuela's economy for the most part prefer suppression and counterrevolution to any dialogue and normalization. They have a reflexive gut reaction to protect their economic turf, like the elite Chileans did in 1973.
gocho24: Scott: I see your point and I do agree the US has a bullish attitude towards the rest of the world (Heck! isn't it EVIDENT??), but I think some of the problems Latin America is facing can be vey well be attributed to their own policies, their own ineptitude..... it's easier to find someone to blame than to blame yourself in the first place (and less politically costly).
nonpositivism: Jesus, its chances would be better if the British and not the Spanish had colonized them. Incipient and grass-roots republican and democratic values and virtues would be more rooted, less prone to violent solutions.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, we have to differentiate the term "America" here. Who or what wants to get rid of presidents or leaders or interests that stand in their way are the big corporations, the big financial and economic interests, combined with energy interests that seem to be crucial at this very point in the decline of the current mode of production. However, there may be more to it than is apparent to the eye, that is, the run for oil. As a "pre-flex" of the coming "mode of creation", genetic and biological resources have to be privatized and patented all over the planet - this is also an aspect of the current run on resources, led by the USA.                       
nonpositivism: Although how much of a difference this would have made is questionable. But countries like New Zealand have taken a very different course. And that came out of the British Empire.
juttafranz: The Arabs should have stayed longer in Spain, then it would have been easier for the USA to invade Venezuela, a terrorist nation. And the "opposition" would have to call their  "coordinadora"  Exxon-Phillips "Al Akbar". And the poor "Misses" of Altamira?? Nothing about 90-666-90!!
nonpositivism: All right, Franz. Touché!
carlzim: INHO, the USA wants to prevent any EU influence on Venezuelan economy. Note excerpts from: http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/venezuela/intro/  EU-Venezuela relations. Trade relations: The EU has traditionally had a positive balance of payments. From 1996 to 2000 the average European surplus has been € 774 million. In the year 2001 the balance showed a surplus of €  864 million.
carlzim: The main category of products exported by Venezuela to the EU is mineral fuels, representing more than 60 % of its total exports to the EU, followed by manufactured goods, around 12%, and raw materials (excluding fuel), also around 12.%. Europe imports around 7% of its oil from Venezuela. With respect to EU exports to Venezuela the main products include machinery and transport equipment, 37%; miscellaneous manufactured articles 15.7 %, mineral fuel and related materials 13.9chemicals and  related products, 15.7%  and manufactured goods 12,2. Venezuela represents 0.3 % of the EU's total imports and 0.4 % of the EU's total exports go to Venezuela.                                                                       nonpositivism: Jutta, theoretically ur argument sounds good but I don't think those forces, that subliminal or conscious mega-approach is going on here. It's more short-term. America is  like a bad jazz musician here, improvising as it goes. It needs lessons from a jazzmaster like me, haha!:))
josuecc: Many oil experts have warned of the probable extinction of the North American oil reserves for this decade... that would give the territory of Alaska, whose operation important sectors of the North American life for right ecological reasons are against. Other sources are the Arab countries, put under deep pressures of political and religious instability due to the permanent crisis in the Middle East and Russia, whose petroleum must go to long pipe lines through earth in arms to arrive at the market of the United States.                                              Yahoo! Messenger: juttafranz has joined the conference.                                juttafranz: Back again.
carlzim: Josue, USA is keeping Mideast unstable.
nonpositivism: Josue, well-said before about the Oil. How did ur English get so good?
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl, Yahoo is keeping us unstable ...
josuecc: Petroleum is the "necessary black gold" for the United States, their economy and its machinery military: a safe petroleum and cheap. There is no other space of greater value to feed the industrial and warlike potential on the United States that the petroleum of Mexico and Venezuela. Mexico already is "under its boot" thanks to the agreements of "Free Commerce "and to the government of Vicente Fox. Lack to seize of Venezuela. The operation is in march! "meritocracia en PDVSA" it is called....                                                                       jutta_schmitt2002: Excellent observation, Josué!
juttafranz: Teach them the Swan's Song, to the rhythm of the "Death March" to Iraq, Scott.
carlzim: USA wants to control intellectual labor worldwide.
nonpositivism: One of my friends here (former top Dept. of Justice official with top-level Sec. Clearance) has told me bluntly that Chavez must be careful not to show pro-OPEC inclinations, or the USA will not hesitate to kick his butt, destabilize his regime, etc.
juttafranz: Scott, is that not fascism: "the USA will not hesitate to kick his butt, destabilize his regime, etc."?
nonpositivism: Yes, Franz. I believe unfortunately the USA has moved toward fascism with democracy very much on the defensive here.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott, they have tried to "kick Chávez butt" a couple of times by now, but unexpectedly kicked into the vacuum. "Worse" even (for them): every kick is a point in favour of Chávez here. The stronger efforts get to oust him, the stronger his support, nationally and internationally, seems to become.
carlzim: Josue, USA broke with Castro because he wouldn't allow USA to dominate Cuban oil.
juttafranz: Or is that good neighbour foreign policy?
nonpositivism: They ("we") underestimate or want to minimize the importance of Chavez's support from the lower classes and darker peoples. the same thing we've done in Cuba for decades. Some Americans simply cannot comprehend, like Senator Jeff Sessions from Alabama, a pure fascist in my judgment.
jutta_schmitt2002: With a friend like the USA, who needs an enemy, Franz? (No offense to our American friends!)
carlzim: Oil in WW2: Saddam parallels Stalin. He kills suspected opponents & their families on whim. He also parallels Hitler. Previously, the Western global oil elites supported Saddam because he protected their oil interests in Iraq. Before WW2, big global business financed Hitler as protection vs. Communism. In WW2, Hitler tried to seize Iraqi oil by supporting Rashid Ali's Iraqi nationalist regime (the predecessor of Sadaam's Ba'ath Party) which kicked out the British. However, British SAS commandos eliminated pro-Nazi elements in Iraq.
juttafranz: In any case, Scott, if Chavéz falls, we all fall, what a fall, my Pandemonium Crew! We might just as well search for the "Heavenly Gate", and not mistake it for a Watergate, Angolagate or Twintowergate!!
carlzim: Later Hitler promised Al Husseni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, that after he seized the Caucasus, he would invade Palestine and kill the Jews. Actually Hitler planned to use Palestine as a stepping stone to seize Mideast oil. Big global oil interests, betrayed by Hitler, withdrew their support and as a result, he lost the war.
Today, Saddam wants to dominate Mideast oil, and will use a global terrorist network with 4th generation warfare to try to achieve his goals. He has no weapons of mass destruction, but is still dangerous. The global oil elites, betrayed by Saddam, want to take him out.                                                                      nonpositivism: haha, Franz. At least u still have ur sense of humor!
carlzim: Bushladensaddam
carlzim: Bushcarterchavezgate
nonpositivism: Carl, excellent historical angle there about Hitler & global oil which I know something about but need to learn more.
juttafranz: Carl, the same applies to Hussein, if that war continues, then there will be nothing left in the USA anymore, that you could be proud of, except those near and dear to you!
josuecc: in agreement, Carl
juttafranz: D' áccord, Carl, but ....
nonpositivism: I disagree with Carl's quote or comment that Hussein is prepared to "wage war" to achieve dominance. I think he's quite willing to do Business As Usual with the West - ****but we're in a different mind-set about him now****.
nonpositivism: America needs a distraction, needs an enemy, wants to release its war-making energy. Bin-Laden is on the lam, murky. Hussein is an "easy" target, a former enemy and readily villifiable.
nonpositivism: Add to that Oil/business hegemonic intentions, and you have the motivation down to the bare essentials.
carlzim: I disagree about Saddam, Scott.
juttafranz: ... things have changed, and the Los Alamos experiments and weapons indicate global genocide. Hitler had no potentiality for that; in any case, his dirty scientists did the nasty job for the coming Fourth Empire.
nonpositivism: I'm also firmly convinced that Bush and his pals will try everything within their power to wage war for their political benefit, to distract Americans from a reeling economy.
nonpositivism: Franz, what do u mean about Hitler's dirty scientists doing the job for the coming 4th empire?
juttafranz: Scott, who are these "Americans"? Also those millions sleeping and freezing under the bridges of America? Those that have to be fed by charity?
Yahoo! Messenger: carlzim has joined the conference.                                      carlzim: Hi, folks.
nonpositivism: There are 300 Million of us here, Franz. We're a very very diverse group.
juttafranz: Operation Paper-Clip, Scott. Carl is the expert in this, could inform you.
nonpositivism: Welcome back, Carlos a.k.a. Tornado
jutta_schmitt2002: On Scott's remark above, about the current American, short-term "bad improvisation" politics: I do have the impression that it is better planned than one would suspect. This is about the remaining, traditional energy resources AS WELL AS water, genetical and biological resources. There is a term for the USA's current, global domination drive, coined by the US Air Force: Full Spectrum Dominance. -- On the immediate level and without joking, there have been scenarios discussed by Venezuelan militarymen, that envision a US invasion in the territories of Zulia, Táchira and Mérida State.
juttafranz: There you see what are American interests, what really was their fight against Nazism.
carlzim: Today hate groups present throughout USA. After chat, visit:
carlzim: http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/index.html
nonpositivism: Read Helen Caldicott's book, Jutta (The New Nuclear Danger) The Pentagon has many mega-plans, scripts to advance its interests. Many remain theoretical. It might interest you to know there is even a plan to repel an "invasion" from Canada. I'm serious. However, the funding and resources and specific materiel devoted to any of these operations remains doubtful.                                            Yahoo! Messenger: josuecc has joined the conference.
josuecc: Hi, I´m back.
juttafranz: That´s why you are fleeing to the Canadian underground, Scott, or is it the underworld?
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for confirming my point here, Scott. I think it is crucial we do away with our illusions. Welcome back, Josué! - We would be astounded about how meticulously plans have been elaborated and are being carried out in order to achieve Full Spectrum Dominance.
nonpositivism: The military with 500 Billion+ each year (50% USA discretionary budget) is understandably truculent, licking its chops. They're used to pushing people, including USA Presidents around, and getting away with it. They also happen to be supported by the right corporations who need those defense contracts to remain viable.:>
jutta_schmitt2002: Carl: One of the poisonous side effects of all this is the formation of "hate groups" or of an outspoken and undifferentiated Anti-Americanism, which is as dangerous and potentially fascist as a blind patriotism.
jutta_schmitt2002: Scott .... trying to enroll on the Canadian side now, eh? ;)
nonpositivism: But Jutta if you had any understanding of how much waste, disorganization, poor and contradictory planning, turf battles, etc. pervade these agencies maybe it would give pause to your belief in the reality of "Full Spectrum Dominance".
juttafranz: Scott, and why all these plans, these weapons. They surely are a legacy from Kennedy, Nixon, Bush Sr., Clinton, etc. -- not necessarily a Bush Jr. speciality. What´s going on in America, Scott? Are a bunch of megolomaniac leaders living there? Why do the UNO experts not inspect the arsenal of US biological secret weapons?? War Apartheid?
jutta_schmitt2002: It is both: Full Spectrum Dominance on the one side on the spectrum, and total improvisation on the other side, Scott. ;) That makes for a charming total. ;)
carlzim: USA may use ELF weapons:http://www.rhfweb.com/consumert.html Radiation Health Foundation Inc., President, Thomas Clark, Email: rhf@rhfweb.com, Web site: http://www.rhfweb.com Continuation and Description of Consumertronics Special Project request: The Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc. would like to contract Consumetroncis to research and produce a written report on the various types of technologies that can be used to detect, measure, and test for radiation or energies that may originate from directed energy weapons (DEW) and electronic harassment technologies directed at a human target.
nonpositivism: Jutta: The waste and squandered  plans are the norm for the Military, not the exception. In the Corporate world, too, Verizon - ever heard of them - regularly would pull the plug mid-stream on a failed $100 Million Project!!!!! Which is an indication of (disgustingly) resources available to waste, huge gobs of capital in their reserve - and also lethargy and surprising incompetence and backwardness in their planning and implementation of system after system.
nonpositivism: whether that makes u feel better, I don't know.:>
carlzim: Good point, Scott.
nonpositivism: [Los Alamos was an exception, but that was extremely concentrated dedicated secret effort with the best Physicists and Engineers in the world]
juttafranz: Scott, Bluebeard, Dr. Frankenstein, Dracula, Dr. Mabuse, all must get green with envy if  they would see in what American presidents, Senate, Congress, corporations, CIA and FBI are indulging.
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks for trying to make me feel better anyway. ;) - Don't underestimate the US military reserach&development&planning capacity, Scott. I really don't want to be "right" on this matter though.
nonpositivism: Jutta is seeking shelter from a nuclear attack?
juttafranz: No, it is the attack of the SS, of Scott´s SSS secret weapon!                Yahoo! Messenger: jutta_schmitt2002 has joined the conference.
jutta_schmitt2002: I´ll definitely go and downgrade Yahoo Messenger after this session ...
carlzim: Iraq conflict includes many players, e.g.:
carlzim: Turkey is a member of NATO, the only Asian state to belong. If they become displeased, they also hold the keys to the Bosporus, this is the only inlet / outlet of The Black Sea. The Russians rather enjoy their freedom of movement for their shipping. If a heavy toil is placed by the Turks based upon tonnage, well, you may guess the rest. They will get it (The Turks) very few will mess with the Turks and get away with it. And, as they are a member of NATO, the situation has a tendency to become rather more sticky, as Russia, is not a member of NATO.    juttafranz: Carl, what would happen in the Arab world, if Bush really uses nuclear weapons against Iraq?
carlzim: So Turkey's claim on Kurds and Iraqi oil must be met.
juttafranz: What would happen with Brother Goliath in the USA?
carlzim: Franz, Bush won't nuke Iraq and destroy oil wells.
juttafranz: Would he become O'Brien?
carlzim: USA may use ELM.
juttafranz: Then, what´s all this nukery all about? When ELF could do a better job?
carlzim: ELM is top secret. Nuke stuff is disinformation.
juttafranz: Carl, there´s no secret about it, you and I know a hell of a lot about it, about its hell.
jutta_schmitt2002: Franz, the problem meanwhile is, that they have accumulated so many "obsolete" weapons they probably don't know what to do with them and thus simply make use of them. Let's not forget, that all these weapons actually do have a "use-value", and, unfortunately, will not just simply be thrown away.
juttafranz: We even know how they function, what the effects are.
nonpositivism: I would personally not be surprised to see US use some form of dirty or hybrid nuclear weapon in Iraq, ostensibly to limit US casualties although it could backfire. Thus far we have shown great comfort and willingness to fire weapons with depleted uranium (First Gulf War, etc.)
carlzim: The secret is not that ELF exists but how to make & use it.
jutta_schmitt2002: Getting rid of your obsolete weapons of mass destruction stock will cause an demand for newer ones, better ones, more sophisticated and more perverse ones.
juttafranz: Oh, I see, Jutta. Why not sell them to Bokasso, Mobutu, or Idid Amin, so that we could declare a new war on the USA, for harbouring terrorists and weapons of mass destruction.
carlzim: also whether ELF will be used is top secret.
jutta_schmitt2002: And if you have the monopoly of weapons of mass destruction, and forbid others to fabricate them, you have the monopoly on the market, too.
nonpositivism: folks, I must get back to work here. I have saved 100% thus far and will email this segment to u within a few hours. Please send me the remainder.
jutta_schmitt2002: So you sell your weapons of mass destruction to "rogue States" and later go and "disarm" them. Good for future market demand.
carlzim: Same with atom bomb in 1944, then it was used in 1945.
juttafranz: Weapons, old or new, all have the same effect. The $ is not the issue, Bush in his speech was playing Russian Roulette with billions, and the sky was the limit, and the donkeys clapped like robots!!                                                        jutta_schmitt2002: Playing Russian Roulette with billions of LIVES ....
carlzim: OK, Scott. I enjoyed your participation.
juttafranz: Bye, Scott, send us the ms. 
jutta_schmitt2002: Thanks, Scott. See you next Thursday, the latest.
juttafranz: You have this jewel complete!! 
juttafranz: Now, I can´t censure your ideas. 
nonpositivism: Adios, amigos!
josuecc: adios!
carlzim: Franz, ELF can make all other weapons unusable.                    jutta_schmitt2002: True, Carl. ELF makes not only weapons, but all electronic equipment and modern infrastructure unusable.
juttafranz: Folks, we have some urgent things to do also. 
jutta_schmitt2002: I have some fragments only. Hasta la vista, Scott.
juttafranz: Send me all your fragments, please. 
gocho24: Adios everyone! 
juttafranz: Bye, all! 
juttafranz: Greetings to Fran, Carl. 
josuecc: bye, all
juttafranz: Bye, Josue!! 
jutta_schmitt2002: So, see you all next Thursday. Take care everybody and bye for now.
carlzim: OK, Franz. I enjoyed the chat. Fran sends greetings to all.
juttafranz: Bye, Jesus!! 
juttafranz: Bye, Stella!! 
carlzim: Bye, all
jutta_schmitt2002: Bye Carl, Jesús, Josué, Stella, Franz.
juttafranz: See you, bye, all!!

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